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I live, nevertheless not I, but Christ lives in me.If your body doesn't have a human spirit Raymond, then you are obviously dead.
So, I hope I am conversing to someone who is well and truly alive?
God knows the end from the beginning because He dwells outside of time.Before conception God knows our individual spirit.
Yes it is. That's the only explanation that scripture allows.Our spirit isn't suddenly born at conception,
There's nothing anywhere in scripture that supports God providing a fresh new spirit for each person.but instead God places the spirit He already knows into us after the new developing body is ready, it appears is one possible way the mystery may be.
Have you read listening (quiet and listening) to the wonderful Psalm 51 in full? Without our thinking about doctrines, issues, stuff. But really just listening. It's such a blessing.God knows the end from the beginning because He dwells outside of time.
Yes it is. That's the only explanation that scripture allows.
There's nothing anywhere in scripture that supports God providing a fresh new spirit for each person.
In point of fact, for the curse of Adam to pass down the generations, it is essential that our complete body, soul, and human spirit, must all descend from Adam via our two parents.
In your version, if God places a new spirit in a prepared body, then that new person would be born completely free of Adam's. sin, and David is talking nonsense when he writes.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Yes. My wife and I are currently reading the Psalms one at a time to each other every morning before we get up.Have you read listening (quiet and listening) to the wonderful Psalm 51 in full? Without our thinking about doctrines, issues, stuff. But really just listening. It's such a blessing.
But David also knew that his sinfulness was already there at conception.David has committed adultery and then basically had the husband killed also....
I like it y'all are reading the Palms. I've been also by coincidence, on the way through the OT again.Yes. My wife and I are currently reading the Psalms one at a time to each other every morning before we get up.
We read Ps51 a few days ago and are now on Ps119.
But David also knew that his sinfulness was already there at conception.
5Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
The above proves that David's spirit could not possibly have been supplied fresh from God at conception. If that had been the case, it would start off in perfection, instead of the fallen state David acknowledges.
If we were given a soul from God at conception, it would obviously have been absolutely perfect which David denies in your verse below.We were given a soul at conception. There is scripture supporting that.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
From the moment, we were conceived we inherited Adam's sin, which was passed down to all mankind.
Absolutely!This is why we fight against abortion. Human life began at conception. So, we can even say, I was once a fetus....I was once an embryo.....and God knew me when I was a fetus or an embryo.
Absolutely not!In creating us from the womb, God had infused a soul into us at conception.
The fact that David claimed he was sinful since conception means that He had a soul since conception. According to Scripture, sin was passed down from Adam to mankind. Sin is not the human body.If we were given a soul from God at conception, it would obviously have been absolutely perfect which David denies in your verse below.
Absolutely!
How can a soul which comes directly from God inherit Adam's sin?
The only way our souls can inherit sin is if the souls are a product of our parents, just as our physical bodies prove.
Absolutely not!
Everyone knows that a son or daughter's inherent physical characteristics, facial shapes, tone of voice, colour of hair, etc. are inherited from the two parents, four grandparents etc, passed down at conception.
We also know that a son or daughter's "gifts" or "talents" (eg. music, art, mechanics) are inherited from the two parents, four grandparents etc, passed down at conception.
Nobody in their right mind would claim that these gifts or talents are contained in our muscles or belly, would they?
No, we accept that they belong in a child's soul, where the mind is seated.
If these things are inherited, then they come in the egg and the sperm.
If the soul was added at conception from God, then it would have neither their talents nor that sin nature from our parents!
No I missed 59, but your verse doesn't mean what you think.I like it y'all are reading the Palms. I've been also by coincidence, on the way through the OT again.
Did you see post #59?
Exactly. Sin is not the human body, therefore sin must be in the spirit/soul.The fact that David claimed he was sinful since conception means that He had a soul since conception. According to Scripture, sin was passed down from Adam to mankind. Sin is not the human body.
Ok, I hear that idea, but it doesn't seem to agree with the Ecclesiastes verse, which is just straightforwardly saying we each get a spirit from God, which returns to Him when this body dies.No I missed 59, but your verse doesn't mean what you think.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Adam's body, not mine, came from the ground.
My body came from Adam via Noah and ultimately my grandparents and two parents.
Adam's spirit came from God When God breathed on him.
My spirit came from God, via my parents, grandparents...…………...via Noah...…………..via Adam, after God breathed on him!
ie. My body, soul, and spirit, all three together were inherited from my parents etc.
G'night folks, it's 10.55pm this side of the pond and I'm off for some shuteye.
I use Biblehub all the time for my posts.Ok, I hear that idea, but it doesn't seem to agree with the Ecclesiastes verse, which is just straightforwardly saying we each get a spirit from God, which returns to Him when this body dies.
But it can help to look at many translations sometimes, so just looking at Biblehub:
King James 2000 Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
………....
They are very much alike (occasionally they aren't and then it's good to dig deeper on the translation).
I suppose simply that for the idea we merely inherit Adam's spirit only, not a unique spirit for each of us.
God created time, and dwells outside of it, therefore his foreknowledge of man, past and future, always appears as present tense...doesn't fit Jer 1:5 as best I can tell.
New American Standard Bible
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
=================
I see. This is an idea I've seen in recent years, and see this idea as another of a variety of reasonable guesses about how to understand some deep questions I consider mystery -- what God foresees, and what amount of free will He has given us, a lot or a little or none.God created time, and dwells outside of it,
God being outside of time is no more a guess than is the concept of "Trinity", a word not mentioned in scripture.I see. This is an idea I've seen in recent years, and see this idea as another of a variety of reasonable guesses about how to understand some deep questions I consider mystery
I think we are in agreement here.-- what God foresees, and what amount of free will He has given us, a lot or a little or none.
That whole complex, all the various sides of one question: to what extent do we have any individual choice or responsibility or cooperation. I'm not at all in the group that guesses we have no choice, that grace is irresistible, because that does clearly contradict scripture in that scripture presents us with real choices, very directly and insistently, and so I expect we do have real choice, and that means our future actions are not already predetermined.
Agreed, but many things we should know are hid from our eyes because of unbelief.I'm always content to realize there are some things we cannot know.
I'm not sure that's the point Paul is making there.I'm comfortable with this reality that there are true and real mysteries which we will not know yet -- just as Paul points to in 1 Cor chapter 13.
Again I cannot see this in Isaiah55To me this is very inevitable seeming also -- that we cannot encompass all mystery -- that we cannot pin down all things about God -- Isaiah chapter 55.
God being outside of time is no more a guess than is the concept of "Trinity", a word not mentioned in scripture.
BTW, I appreciate that you don't just accept odd notions without examination, I likewise don't put forward ideas without first deeply considering them. My study of scripture is always prayerful and that's where my best thoughts originate.
But I can be very mischievous at times if I want to prove a point.-
Many years ago at a Pentecostal church I attended, I was asked to lead a Sunday evening discussion group.
The subject I chose was the "character of God".
By subtly leading them, I managed to get a good consensus of how the group saw God's character.
As we ended, I quoted their collective perceptions of God's character, to which they all heartily agreed.
"Congratulations" I said, "You have just described Allah, the God of Islam!"
They were shocked, horrified, and deeply embarrassed as I laid out their folly! But it showed exactly how bad their comprehension was, and how that influenced how they read scripture.
Even the pastor swallowed it hook line and sinker.
But similarly, much of the characteristics of God we see on this forum would suit Allah better than Jahweh!
I think we are in agreement here.
Agreed, but many things we should know are hid from our eyes because of unbelief.
I'm not sure that's the point Paul is making there.
Again I cannot see this in Isaiah55
Agreed, the soul must be present in the womb.Finally, perhaps you already noticed above, but I feel it's very likely the soul is already present in babies in the womb (just to be sure you didn't miss that's my view already, past tense and continuing).
But there's no scriptural basis whatsoever to God placing souls from heaven into any egg or fetus.But, I still don't think it's seeming at all likely God would place a soul into a dying fertilized egg (conception moment).
This is so wrong, completely denying the very basics of scripture, including what Jesus tells Nicodemus.He Himself in His awesome power and knowledge, above ours, superior to us, above us, not on our level, but a higher level -- He can see which such eggs will continue and which will die very soon -- to put a soul in a dying fertilized egg I feel is not in accord with His nature as revealed in scripture.
(note though that we should not assume every person that believes the soul is present at "conception" actually considers that to includes such non-viable fertizlied eggs (!)....Instead they may be meaning only viable fertilized eggs -- only the 1/2 of conceptions(!) -- that actually will make it, for all we know, in their one person individual viewpoint. We won't know they mean non-viable conceptions unless they say so...) Again, just as before, my own view about non-viable conceptions not yet having a soul is a guess. I don't presume to know. He would know. We do not know. Again, as above already, if personally in some fraught situation (as the example I gave earlier), I'd pray for guidance.
I'm sorry, but you really are taking a coward's way out, instead of addressing my posts and my scriptures, you hide behind a screen.Well, for Isaiah chapter 55, one of the greater jewels in all the Old Testament, I hesitate to just take the verses out, so instead I want to continue to read it as a whole, but I do learn His thoughts are not just more high than ours, but vastly higher than ours. Even our ideas are poor attempts to understand -- they are rich to us, but poor compared to what actually is, and is to come.
I mean we can feel we understand, but it is "in part" as Paul said (1 Cor 13). See -- to realize your correct ideas, this or that, trinity, and more, are not the same as the "know in full", because we don't yet already have (we are like Paul at best, under the spirit but still in this limited body) the "full". Not yet.
Paul is accurately writing not only that love is the only redeeming action for all other actions we think to do, but also he is telling us that we are still in the "in part" world, and the complete is still to come.
I fear God, see, so I won't add to scripture.I'm sorry, but you really are taking a coward's way out, instead of addressing my posts and my scriptures, you hide behind a screen.
Here's a counterbalance to your verses.
Prov25v2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
2Tim2v15Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
James1v15But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
Nobody is adding to scripture.I fear God, see, so I won't add to scripture.
That is exactly what I have done from the beginning.See, I read those scriptures as part of a whole, reading through the entire full books, listening, and getting their meaning in context.
When I speculate I own it as a speculation, and don't imagine it's scripture. That's important to remember to do, else one is adding to scripture.
At least your speculation (as I see it being) is logically consistent though. God bless you and have a good evening.
Nobody is adding to scripture.
That is exactly what I have done from the beginning.
The idea that God has a reserve if spirits or souls in heaven is never ever mentioned in scripture, and those who claim it are definitely adding to scripture.
Scripture clearly describes God creating Eve by removing a part of Adam, the result being a wife entirely compatible with him because she originated in him.
The description of making Eve excludes God breathing into her as He did Adam, therefore it is entirely consistent with scripture to presume she got body, soul and spirit, from Adam.
That statement adds nothing to scripture!
In contrast, to claim God secretly breathed into Eve would definitely be adding to scripture.
Even without modern scientific proof, we all know children inherit their grandparents' and parents' physical, emotional, and mental characteristics.
We also know that our emotional and mental characteristics are part of the human soul/spirit, not the physical body.
This fact alone eliminates the possibility of God inserting a brand new soul/spirit in a child
Scripture also states clearly that we inherit Adam's sinful nature.
This fact alone eliminates the idea of God inserting a brand new spirit/soul into a child.
None of the above adds to scripture.
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