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I am not that up to date with all the 'ologies' If you could speak on spiritual ideas or direct quotes from the bible we can continue.Ok, we are going to get into Christological issues with this answer. Is not Jesus Christ fully human and fully God? If this is also your view then Jesus would have a human soul as He has two Natures but is One Person.
Jesus truly God and truly man is speaking of the basics of Christianity.I am not that up to date with all the 'ologies' If you could speak on spiritual ideas or direct quotes from the bible we can continue.
Do you believe that a soul is imparted at conception?
Or do you believe it is at birth?
Do you believe the Holy Spirit can be imparted in the womb?
Everybody dies. Your assumptions would apply to anyone at any stage of human development."...more than half of successful fertilisations will end in miscarriage."
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage
God would not put souls into fetuses that He can see are going to naturally die before birth, is my best guess.
(if someone believes God would intentionally put a soul into a developing fetus He can see is going to die soon in the womb...I wonder how they see that, and what makes them think so?)
Another aspect to consider: the soul seems to be interwoven with consciousness.
So, if only 1/2 of conceptions result in viable babies that make it full term.
And the soul is associated to consciousness.
Then, it must be very likely that a soul would only be implanted into developing babies that are going to make it and when their developing nervous systems are sufficiently developed in order to allow a basic consciousness.
One possible indicator of basic consciousness is that sometime in the 2nd trimester they do begin to respond --
Fetal Sense of Hearing Development During Pregnancy | What To Expect
So....not before then, but quite possibly at that time, or...
Another interesting fact is that long time Jewish custom was not to name a baby boy until it reached 8 days living outside the womb (during the 'bris' ceremony). And a baby girl during first Torah reading -
The Laws of Jewish Names - Parshat Shemot
We probably both know when the soul leaves the body, but when do you think the soul enters the body?Everybody dies. Your assumptions would apply to anyone at any stage of human development.
This type of reasoning is really nothing more than us pretending we are God and then saying how we would do things. This is dangerous reasoning, and as you can see from the post, isn't actually based on anything Biblical (he cited nothing)."...more than half of successful fertilisations will end in miscarriage."
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage
God would not put souls into fetuses that He can see are going to naturally die before birth, is my best guess.
(if someone believes God would intentionally put a soul into a developing fetus He can see is going to die soon in the womb...I wonder how they see that, and what makes them think so?)
Another aspect to consider: the soul seems to be interwoven with consciousness.
So, if only 1/2 of conceptions result in viable babies that make it full term.
And the soul is associated to consciousness.
Then, it must be very likely that a soul would only be implanted into developing babies that are going to make it and when their developing nervous systems are sufficiently developed in order to allow a basic consciousness.
One possible indicator of basic consciousness is that sometime in the 2nd trimester they do begin to respond --
Fetal Sense of Hearing Development During Pregnancy | What To Expect
So....not before then, but quite possibly at that time, or...
Another interesting fact is that long time Jewish custom was not to name a baby boy until it reached 8 days living outside the womb (during the 'bris' ceremony). And a baby girl during first Torah reading -
The Laws of Jewish Names - Parshat Shemot
I believe we must go with what we do know. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God, He made them male and female. That's the first fact we know of from Genesis.We probably both know when the soul leaves the body, but when do you think the soul enters the body?
This type of reasoning is really nothing more than us pretending we are God and then saying how we would do things. This is dangerous reasoning, and as you can see from the post, isn't actually based on anything Biblical (he cited nothing).
Consider this, there are babies that are actually born that die soon thereafter. Based upon the logic provided here, I see no reason why we shouldn't extend it to all babies that die within 1 week of birth, or perhaps 1 month of birth. Surely if God would not put a soul into a baby that would die in the womb, He would also not put a soul in a baby that would die within 1 month of living outside the womb, right?
It's a slippery slope, and it's not based upon Scripture. It's best if we don't pretend to be God and make assertions about what He would or wouldn't do based upon our limited, finite reasoning.
What we do know is that all humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. What we do know is that a new, unique individual human being comes into existence at fertilization and begins a 25 year long developmental period. Based upon that, unbiased logic would lend us towards believing that we have a soul at fertilization.
Afterall, there is absolutely 100% nothing to be found in Scripture that would indicate there is ever at any time a living human without a soul. And since humans come into existence at fertilization..... The conclusion is easy to arrive at.
I believe we must go with what we do know. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God, He made them male and female. That's the first fact we know of from Genesis.
Second fact we know is God is Spirit as Jesus told the woman at the well.
We can logically conclude that the material body is not the image and likeness which God bestowed on man at creation.
The other fact to draw some knowledge from is the fact there is no instance where a human life is without a soul other than death. Death is actually defined as the separation of the soul from the body.
Death, Death-stroke (see also Die)
[ A-1,Noun,G2288, thanatos ]
death," is used in Scripture of:
(a) the separation of the soul (the spiritual part of man) from the body (the material part), the latter ceasing to function and turning to dust, e.g., John 11:13; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 5:7; Hebrews 7:23. In Hebrews 9:15, the AV, "by means of death" is inadequate; the RV, "a death having taken place" is in keeping with the subject. In Revelation 13:3, Revelation 13:12, the RV, "death-stroke" (AV, "deadly wound") is, lit., "the stroke of death:"
(b) the separation of man from God; Adam died on the day he disobeyed God, Genesis 2:17, and hence all mankind are born in the same spiritual condition, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:14, Romans 5:17, Romans 5:21, from which, however, those who believe in Christ are delivered, John 5:24; 1 John 3:14. "Death" is the opposite of life; it never denotes nonexistence. As spiritual life is "conscious existence in communion with God," so spiritual "death" is "conscious existence in separation from God."
"Death, in whichever of the above-mentioned senses it is used, is always, in Scripture, viewed as the penal consequence of sin, and since sinners alone are subject to death, Romans 5:12, it was as the Bearer of sin that the Lord Jesus submitted thereto on the Cross, 1 Peter 2:24. And while the physical death of the Lord Jesus was of the essence of His sacrifice, it was not the whole. The darkness symbolized, and His cry expressed, the fact that He was left alone in the Universe, He was 'forsaken;' cp. Matthew 27:45-Matthew 27:46." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 134.]
Death, Death-stroke (see also Die) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Sorry. I assumed that everyone would expect that any and every answer that speculates about when God puts a soul into a body is a guess.I don't know, why don't you put some content in your thoughts?
Our very beginning when we become human beings is at conception. We do know that scientifically. It would be at that point we must consider all human beings made in the image and likeness of God. If not and we are just some human being 'raw material' then we would be 'dead.' Because there is no other separation of soul and body other than death and that is not permanent.If you know that a soul leaves a body at death, do you think a soul enters a body/physical flesh at some point in time?
If one wants to invoke "mystery" then we have to assume protection of all human beings from the earliest of stages. We know this now scientifically is at conception.To me, guessing that God places souls into bodies, and when -- those are a mystery.
But the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.Our very beginning when we become human beings is at conception. We do know that scientifically. It would be at that point we must consider all human beings made in the image and likeness of God. If not and we are just some human being 'raw material' then we would be 'dead.' Because there is no other separation of soul and body other than death and that is not permanent.
That's just a supposition, a dangerous one since it would apply to Jesus tooBut the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.
Why would we have to assume it deals with a physical likeness? Jesus said God is Spirit. And the Divine Logos God the Son did not become flesh at creation but when conceived in Mary.But the literal image of God -- our physical image-likeness to Him, however unique in each person -- that's not at conception, but much later in development. I'm not drawing any guesses from that, but since you mentioned it, we do know that image-likeness is pretty far along in pregnancy.
If it is not a mystery, then someone could lay out the full way you know? Or do you mean simply something like "ok, it is a mystery, but still..."? The person that says it is not an unknown (a mystery) would also get asked the question: what about the 1/2 of conceptions that result in natural death in the womb (and can't God see that ahead of time?)?If one wants to invoke "mystery" then we have to assume protection of all human beings from the earliest of stages. We know this now scientifically is at conception.
Well, I'm not making any supposition from it myself...That's just a supposition, a dangerous one since it would apply to Jesus too
It might help to know I think this is all mysterious, and involves a mystery -- when the soul enters the fleshly body. See post #30 -- make that #23 -- please though if you want to offer something that could help clear up some of the unknowns.That's just a supposition, a dangerous one since it would apply to Jesus too
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