Soulless People - Bible Source Needed

[The Lady Of The Lake]

Soul/s used in 7 verses in Revelation:
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
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Thanks (that's a lot of links!) taking a look into these. I've already used other bible searches but not Strong's. I've combed through Revelation repeatedly so it seems unlikely that I missed it... but as anyone who has lost keys before can tell you - sometimes it can be right in front of you and you don't even see it.

This is not written in the bible, but the thought occurred to me in the context of spiritual warfare.

Something you want to expound upon?

No, the Bible doesn't mention "people without souls". Even more than that, no where in the Bible does it say that people "have souls", that just isn't the kind of language Scripture uses, and it's now how the biblical writers conceived of "the soul". The idea that human beings have this thing called a "soul" floating somewhere inside them, or that comprises the "real" person is entirely foreign from Scripture and historic, orthodox Christian teaching.

To be honest, when I posted this, I did not expect to get the response that ALL people are born without souls and especialy not from you, ViaCrucis. You are listed as Catholic/Lutheran - to deny the existence of the soul does not line up with these beliefs. It does, however, line up with Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs. They are very subtle with the way they try to convert Christians, so if you are being visited by them/ reading the WatchTower, you are going to want to know they are not Christians, they are a cult (this forum recognizes this). Many people mistake them for Christian - I did, too until they tried to convert me. Some of their beliefs include:

That man is purey physical without soul (only “breath”).

Jesus was a created angel who has existed in three different forms: Archangel Michael, Jesus (fully man, not God) and then – after completely dying (since they believe souls don’t exist) the recreated *better* Archangel Micheal.

And that Man is capable of achieving salvation without spiritual re-birth and that – if you work hard enough – you will be one of only 144,000 elect that get to go to Heaven (talk about buying a stairway to Heaven!). Since this is the eschatology forum, you are probably familiar with where they got that number and what it actually represents.

To top it off, they have failed prophecy and a tie to the occult including mediums (involved with the Watchtower & the New World Translation) and automatic writing (Rutherford himself wrote a book with automatic writing).

The resurrection of the body is our blessed hope.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, the resurrection of the dead is a glorious thing! But if humans are merely physical things, and the soul is merely "breath", then death extinguishes the breath and the person is lost. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses believe in recreation not resurrection as we do. This also leads to the rejection of the Lake of Fire as a real destination for lost souls/people as they would have to be recreated expressly for the purpose of going to Hell.

And if one wants to be really technical, everything that has breath has a "soul", as that's what the words translated as "soul" in the Bible mean, they mean "breath". So in Genesis chapter 2 where we read that God took a lump of dirt and breathed into the nostrils of man and man became a "living soul" the Hebrew here is "nephesh chayah", a "breathing, living creature" (nephesh means "breath" and is often rendered as "soul", chayah means "living [thing]". Likewise the Greek of the New Testament has psyche, meaning "breath", but again often rendered as "soul".

Then we must also consider that "spirit" - in Hebrew ru'ahh and Greek pneu'ma - is said to refer generally to the life force of the living creature or soul.

Now if we look at Mathew 10:28

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Does this make sense if the word soul here only means breath? The word used for soul is, after all "psyche" but the word for body is "soma". Let's see:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the breath: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both breath and body in hell."

I don't know about you, but if someone comes along and kills my breathing, my body's probably going to die. And if some body comes along and kills my body, I'm probably going to stop breathing. Is it more likely that this is a passage about not fearing those who can kill our body without being able to stop us from breathing? Or that it is a reference to the mortality of the body and the immortality of the soul which men cannot kill but which can both be destroyed in the "second death" of the Lake of Fire?



Disclaimer: Since, in English, the word spirit and the word soul have meanings that over lap, I think it is safe to assume that it is understood I am not referring to people born without "breath" but without a "spirit" - a.k.a. an immortal soul. In fact, using the term "spirit" might cause a misunderstanding in English (people might think you are talking about a familiar spirit or such).

Again, thank you to everyone for their time and contributions! I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Introverted1293]

Oops

Never mind

 

[Daniel9v9]

The bible says we get new bodies when resurrected. We are not our body, but after the resurrection, that body is a reflection of who Christ is in us while we lived in this body.

I believe the point CryptoLutheran is making is that we have to be a little careful saying things akin to "The body is a temporary dwelling." if taken to mean that a man is a soul trapped in a temporal body - that the soul is the true essence of man, and the body a mere exterior or shell. That would be a form of Gnosticism, which is a high view of the spiritual but a low view of the material. But from Scriptures, we learn that when God created us, we were made in His image, spirit and flesh, and that it was very good (that is, before sin).

At the resurrection, we are raised bodily - with imperishable bodies, spiritual and raised in glory and power. What this looks like is not known, but what we can stress is that we will be raised in our body, just as Christ was raised in His body.
cf. 1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians

Now, saying all of this, you are also right, for our current dwelling certainly is temporary (2 Corinthians 5), but we want to make sure we don't neglect to profess the resurrection of the body.

 

[BABerean2]

Even more than that, no where in the Bible does it say that people "have souls", that just isn't the kind of language Scripture uses, and it's now how the biblical writers conceived of "the soul".

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


1Th_5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Something you want to expound upon?

Since the idea came from a sin organism, the opposite is probably true, hard to say with those things. Most people mistake them as demons, in that case, it's the same conclusion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I believe the point CryptoLutheran is making is that we have to be a little careful saying things akin to "The body is a temporary dwelling." if taken to mean that a man is a soul trapped in a temporal body - that the soul is the true essence of man, and the body a mere exterior or shell. That would be a form of Gnosticism, which is a high view of the spiritual but a low view of the material. But from Scriptures, we learn that when God created us, we were made in His image, spirit and flesh, and that it was very good (that is, before sin).

At the resurrection, we are raised bodily - with imperishable bodies, spiritual and raised in glory and power. What this looks like is not known, but what we can stress is that we will be raised in our body, just as Christ was raised in His body.
cf. 1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians

Now, saying all of this, you are also right, for our current dwelling certainly is temporary (2 Corinthians 5), but we want to make sure we don't neglect to profess the resurrection of the body.

I think I was referring the 1st Corinthian Claim that We take off corruptibility and put on incorruptability - so on and so forth. I understand it is a full bodily resurrection, but recently heard a pastor saying that this body that we live in now - this is it, the body we are in now, will be the same body then ... so I'm explaining it in contrast to a contemporary view that is dreadfully wrong.

 

[friend of]

Re: Psychopaths

 

[ViaCrucis]

To be honest, when I posted this, I did not expect to get the response that ALL people are born without souls and especialy not from you, ViaCrucis. You are listed as Catholic/Lutheran - to deny the existence of the soul does not line up with these beliefs. It does, however, line up with Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs. They are very subtle with the way they try to convert Christians, so if you are being visited by them/ reading the WatchTower, you are going to want to know they are not Christians, they are a cult (this forum recognizes this). Many people mistake them for Christian - I did, too until they tried to convert me. Some of their beliefs include:

I didn't say people were born without souls.

My statement had more to do with opposing the Platonic idea that we are "souls" encased in bodies of flesh, as such a notion is heretical and contrary to orthodox Christian teaching. We are not "embodied souls" but rather "ensouled bodies".

The things I wrote in my post are in keeping with historic, orthodox Christian teaching, and have nothing to do with heretical groups like the Watchtower.

My general position on the matter can probably described as psychosomatic union, i.e. that human beings are a union of body-and-soul.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


1Th_5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

.

Perhaps my language was confusing.

I haven't denied the existence of the soul in what I wrote. I was trying to carefully refute the Platonic and heretical idea that the soul is some thing that exists entirely apart from the body, as a kind of "ghost in the shell". But that the idea of "the soul" isn't some kind of ghost, or ethereal person dwelling inside a prison of flesh; but that it speaks to the animating principle of bodily life as well as describes the invisible qualities of man--man's reason, man's will, etc. It is on account of the soul that the human person can relate to God.

At no point have I denied the existence of the soul. What I have rejected is the idea that the soul constitutes some kind of other me, or else the "true" me that merely inhabits a body.

I am not a body indwelt by a soul; and I am not a soul inhabiting a body. I am a human being constituted by both body and soul. By both the visible and the invisible, the material and immaterial; not in antagonistic fashion, but as a union of these things by which I am a rational, thinking, worshiping animal. I am an animal which can reason, an animal which can will, an animal which can love, and thus an animal which can worship the Creator. And as such a creature made to bear and reflect the Divine Image.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BABerean2]

Perhaps my language was confusing.

I haven't denied the existence of the soul in what I wrote. I was trying to carefully refute the Platonic and heretical idea that the soul is some thing that exists entirely apart from the body, as a kind of "ghost in the shell". But that the idea of "the soul" isn't some kind of ghost, or ethereal person dwelling inside a prison of flesh; but that it speaks to the animating principle of bodily life as well as describes the invisible qualities of man--man's reason, man's will, etc. It is on account of the soul that the human person can relate to God.

At no point have I denied the existence of the soul. What I have rejected is the idea that the soul constitutes some kind of other me, or else the "true" me that merely inhabits a body.

I am not a body indwelt by a soul; and I am not a soul inhabiting a body. I am a human being constituted by both body and soul. By both the visible and the invisible, the material and immaterial; not in antagonistic fashion, but as a union of these things by which I am a rational, thinking, worshiping animal. I am an animal which can reason, an animal which can will, an animal which can love, and thus an animal which can worship the Creator. And as such a creature made to bear and reflect the Divine Image.

-CryptoLutheran

Rev_6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

.

 

[Petros2015]

Does anyone know if this is mentioned anywhere in the Bible? Have I simply missed it? If not, where does it come from and why? I would very much like to know.

I think it comes from the idea that anyone who gets the Mark of the Beast(tm) loses their soul immediately and eternally, and different fanfictions of Revelations have taken and run with that concept to various ends and degrees. There was someone on this forum who planned on being able to shoot his way out of problems during the Tribulation because the people he was shooting 'wouldn't have souls' so it didn't count as murder. Makes for a good hollywood movie, I suppose.

 

[Petros2015]

There's always the question of if someone does successful human cloning, does the clone have an immortal soul? I guess that's one way you could get someone 'soulless' potentially, which would be (I imagine) an unexpected and undesirable result, especially if 'nature abhors a vacuum'. Also might make for a good Hollywood movie.

 

[DavidPT]

Currently there are robots in the earth that make use of AI. Some of them are apparently lifelike and can think and reason and perform physical tasks similar to humans. These seem to maybe fit people without souls, except I don't recall the mentioning of them in Revelation though.

 

[Pedra]

I thought I read in the book of Revelation that in the end of times there would be people without souls. On going back, I cannot find this mentioned anywhere; digital Bible word searches and search engines have not yielded any such verses.

Not where I have ever read does the bible say soul-less people, the bible warns of the ungodly, unrighteousness. It warns about lawlessness, deviance and ungodliness etc.. Apostle Paul in 2 Tim 3 warns that people will become increasingly evil in the latter days. They will despise God and His precepts, we see the increased attack upon the bible & Christ. They will be lovers of themselves, have a form of spirituality but be ungodly( unrighteous, unholy) etc...

2 Tim 3: "3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, 4 traitorous, reckless, conceited , lovers of pleasure rather then lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!…"

 

[ViaCrucis]

Rev_6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

.

Was there something in my post that you think is at odds with this passage?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BABerean2]

Was there something in my post that you think is at odds with this passage?

-CryptoLutheran

You seem to be denying that the souls of dead Christians are now in heaven with Christ, or have I misunderstood you?

.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You seem to be denying that the souls of dead Christians are now in heaven with Christ, or have I misunderstood you?

.

You've misunderstood me. Of course I believe that to be absent from the body means being present with the Lord--all who have fallen asleep--died--in Christ are with Christ, in His Presence. The soul survives the body to be present with Christ, in the interim between death and resurrection.

The whole point of my original post in this thread was that "soulless people" can't exist, because to be human means having a soul.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cierrahopes]

Though I've never seen that in the book of Revelation, I've seen conspiracies that point out possibilities that the government is cloning people already. It would make sense to me that if the government were doing experiments to close people or make human-animal crossbreeds, then they would not have a soul. So I haven't read it, but the concept makes sense to me based on what I believe about government clones.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Though I've never seen that in the book of Revelation, I've seen conspiracies that point out possibilities that the government is cloning people already. It would make sense to me that if the government were doing experiments to close people or make human-animal crossbreeds, then they would not have a soul. So I haven't read it, but the concept makes sense to me based on what I believe about government clones.

Why would a human clone be without a soul?

Also, the only "hybrid" technology we currently possess are minor gene replacement. For example, attempts have been made to insert the gene which is responsible for spider silk into goats, specifically in the gene responsible for producing milk. The point of which is to find a way to mass produce spider silk, as it has valuable properties as a material.

That's not much of a "hybrid" though.

And, finally, nobody's engaging in human cloning, or human experimentation. And even if that was happening, there's no reason why such people would be soulless.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Lady Of The Lake]

Just a quick update for those who many be interested: I have been continuing my research on the subject, following leads - still nothing concrete. Ho-hum.