soul at conception

quilbilly

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I believe that we received our soul at birth. When I've brought this up in other threads I was told No way. Soul at conception.
My question is what happens to the souls of the majority of pregnancies that end with a miscarriage? I heard it was two thirds.
Is heaven filled with souls that have never sinned? Or is hell filled with souls ?
Where do these souls go that were never born and never received the breath of life?
 

Sketcher

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First of all, Scripture is not specific on when the soul enters a new human being, so the general consensus I have found is that it is better to err on the side of caution with the unborn baby. Second, as for where such a soul would go in the event of a miscarriage, the soul would go to God. God would do with that soul as he would will. Such souls would certainly be younger than the age of accountability.

I have a question for you, since you believe that the soul is given when the baby is born. Since some babies are born prematurely and live, why would they be receiving their souls 6 or however many weeks earlier than other babies who were born close to their due date? Even though every measurable aspect of both babies is at a different stage of growth or development?
 
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quilbilly

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First of all, Scripture is not specific on when the soul enters a new human being, so the general consensus I have found is that it is better to err on the side of caution with the unborn baby. Second, as for where such a soul would go in the event of a miscarriage, the soul would go to God. God would do with that soul as he would will. Such souls would certainly be younger than the age of accountability.

I have a question for you, since you believe that the soul is given when the baby is born. Since some babies are born prematurely and live, why would they be receiving their souls 6 or however many weeks earlier than other babies who were born close to their due date? Even though every measurable aspect of both babies is at a different stage of growth or development?[/QUOTE

I believe that the baby at whatever stage of development gets a soul with first breath of life

So if the souls under the age of accountability then do you believe that 2/3 of heaven were unborn?
 
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Sketcher

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I believe that the baby at whatever stage of development gets a soul with first breath of life
But they already have the breath of life within the womb.

So if the souls under the age of accountability then do you believe that 2/3 of heaven were unborn?
I don't speculate on numbers.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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I believe that we received our soul at birth. When I've brought this up in other threads I was told No way. Soul at conception.
My question is what happens to the souls of the majority of pregnancies that end with a miscarriage? I heard it was two thirds.
Is heaven filled with souls that have never sinned? Or is hell filled with souls ?
Where do these souls go that were never born and never received the breath of life?

Read Genesis 2:7. What does it say about Adam in relation to this. When does it say that Adam received his soul?

Actually, when you read it you would realize that Adam did not receive a soul, Adam was a soul, because the soul is the entire individual and not a part of an individual.
 
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quilbilly

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Read Genesis 2:7. What does it say about Adam in relation to this. When does it say that Adam received his soul?

Actually, when you read it you would realize that Adam did not receive a soul, Adam was a soul, because the soul is the entire individual and not a part of an individual.


Actually if YOU read it it says God created Adam then He blew the breath of life into Adam THEN he became a living soul. Adam needed the breath of life first.

What about you? Do you believe miscarried and aborted babies are in heaven?
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Actually if YOU read it it says God created Adam then He blew the breath of life into Adam THEN he became a living soul. Adam needed the breath of life first.

What about you? Do you believe miscarried and aborted babies are in heaven?

uhh yeh. My point is that Adam became a living soul. You believe that Adam contained a living soul. There is a difference. There is no soul without the breath of life and the body. God made his body first, breathed in the breath of life, then Adam became a living soul.

And no, they are not in heaven. They are in the grave awaiting judgement like everyone else.
 
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quilbilly

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No that is not what I think and that is not what I said. I said Adam became a living soul with the breath of life.

I don't believe abortion kills a living soul because they have not taken the breath of life

Thanks for your reply on heaven. There are many interpretations of that belief. Ill just say that I don't know
 
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PROPHECYKID

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No that is not what I think and that is not what I said. I said Adam became a living soul with the breath of life.

I don't believe abortion kills a living soul because they have not taken the breath of life

Thanks for your reply on heaven. There are many interpretations of that belief. Ill just say that I don't know

In order for one to die, the breath of life must be removed. Once the baby is dead it has no breath.
 
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ChristianT

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I believe we are "ensouled" at conception. Look at the Incarnation: Jesus became the God-man ~when Mary was told she would bear the Son of God.

Also, Luke mentions how John the Baptist in the womb "leapt," iow, 'kicked' when he was in the presence of Jesus Christ in His mother's womb.

Meanwhile, I don't think anyone thought He was God-to-be-incarnate. The Word became flesh. Ginomai, the greek for became, there, means to come into being, to become, to be born. So technically, we're both right, but only in the sense that if/since He had been Incarnate prior to birth, He was also Incarnate afterward. So I agree with you in that context, but then again you said you're agnostic about it.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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No that is not what I think and that is not what I said. I said Adam became a living soul with the breath of life.

I don't believe abortion kills a living soul because they have not taken the breath of life

Thanks for your reply on heaven. There are many interpretations of that belief. Ill just say that I don't know

Clarify your position for me because you said, "I believe that we received our soul at birth". You are suggesting that you contain a soul instead of become a soul. So I am a bit confused.
 
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quilbilly

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I believe we are "ensouled" at conception. Look at the Incarnation: Jesus became the God-man ~when Mary was told she would bear the Son of God.

Also, Luke mentions how John the Baptist in the womb "leapt," iow, 'kicked' when he was in the presence of Jesus Christ in His morther's womb.

Meanwhile, I don't think anyone thought He was God-to-be-incarnate. The Word became flesh. Ginomai, the greek for became, there, means to come into being, to become, to be born. So technically, we're both right, but only in the sense that if/since He had been Incarnate prior to birth, He was also Incarnate afterward. So I agree with you in that context, but then again you said you're agnostic about it.


When I first came on CF I used the seeker icon but I took lot of flak so I changed it to agnostic because I don't KNOW. Still looking
 
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ChristianT

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When I first came on CF I used the seeker icon but I took lot of flak so I changed it to agnostic because I don't KNOW. Still looking

I know what you mean [no pun intended], a few years ago I saw that as some kind of a joke of an icon, but now it's so fitting personally; people change :wave:

And there's nothing wrong with honesty, God bless you in your search! :crosseo:
 
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trulyconverted

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The mother breathes for the child. The fetal respiration occurs between the mother's blood and the baby's blood. The life of all flesh is the blood.

2 Sam 12:23 "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." - IMO this indicates they go to heaven.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ensoulment is most likely an unanswerable question.

When we look at the ancient Fathers and theologians into the middle ages, there has always been some disagreement in this area. Mostly the disagreement has been whether ensoulment happens at conception, or sometime during the pregnancy. Forty days after conception has usually been picked in this case.

Scripture itself doesn't address the question.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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quilbilly

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Ensoulment is most likely an unanswerable question.

When we look at the ancient Fathers and theologians into the middle ages, there has always been some disagreement in this area. Mostly the disagreement has been whether ensoulment happens at conception, or sometime during the pregnancy. Forty days after conception has usually been picked in this case.

Scripture itself doesn't address the question.

-CryptoLutheran


If Scripture doesn't address it how was 40 days picked?

Scripture does say when Adam became a living soul. The body alone wasn't enough. My interpretation is that we became a living soul at first breath.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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If Scripture doesn't address it how was 40 days picked?

Scripture does say when Adam became a living soul. The body alone wasn't enough. My interpretation is that we became a living soul at first breath.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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ViaCrucis

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If Scripture doesn't address it how was 40 days picked?

Greek philosophy mainly. The ancient Greek philosophers maintained that human life developed through several stages in the womb: vegetative, sensitive/animal, and finally reaching a stage of full human development. Without the right tools and science, it was the best guess many had in the ancient western world. Christian thinkers more-or-less took some of these things for granted as descriptive of the processes of the natural world. It wouldn't be until much later that scientific advancements would give us a full picture of how reproduction works and fetal development works.

Scripture does say when Adam became a living soul. The body alone wasn't enough. My interpretation is that we became a living soul at first breath.

The ancient Hebrew concept of the nephesh ("soul") wasn't the same as the later Platonic notion of a distinct, separate ghost-like thing, rather it referred to the breath of life. The nephesh or soul was that quality of a living thing that marked it as living, as opposed to a lifeless corpse. The Greek word psuche means about the same as the Hebrew nephesh; both can be translated as "breath" or "soul". Platonic philosophy stated that the soul was a deeper, separate reality from the body and that fleshiness was a degenerate condition. Aristotle argued, instead, that the soul of a thing was it's fundamental function or property, the example Aristotle gives is that of a knife, the knife's "soul", it's psuche, is cutting.

So such raises the bigger question of what "soul" is. I would tend toward the Hebraic view, though Aristotle's isn't too far off I think. I don't embrace the Platonic view, as it denies the central importance of material existence, of the body, which Christianity makes paramount in its view of creation and salvation (that is, the resurrection of the body).

That said, I still maintain that Scripture doesn't quite address the question of ensoulment, as that's probably not the sort of thing those who wrote Scripture were particularly interested in addressing.

If the act of independent breathing is the determinate factor of having "a soul", then that raises ethical questions concerning those who are dependent on a respirator for breathing. It may be argued that this is somewhat of an absurd stretch, but not necessarily; what is the fundamental difference between being dependent upon the biological machinery of the mother or being dependent upon the artificial machinery of a respirator? I think, therefore, we need something much more substantive than simply the mechanical act of independent breathing. Human life should be more substantive than that.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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