Sons of God in Gen 6:2

[Cribstyl]

Crib, understanding the meaning of a hard to understand word, means going to other places in the Bible to gain a better understanding... this is what is meant by precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little. What God desribes in one part of the Bible has to have the same meaning elsewhere, otherwise confusion abounds. One easy example of this is the prophetic term beast, we know that a beast represents a nation or government. It would be impossible to understand prophesy if beast meant one thing in one part of the Bible and another somewhere else.

The term daughters of men means earthly women, correct? By the same standard, we have to conclude that sons of men refers to the men of earth. Check out these examples of how men were refered to by God.

Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Ezekiel 2:1
And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

Ezekial is refered to as the Son of man 91 times.

Also, why is Jesus refered to so many times in the NT as the Son of man when we know He is the Son of God... in Heaven He was the Son of God as were the other angels but born in the flesh he was known as the Son of man.

We have to agree to disagree on all this ECR, stay cool.

 

[Cribstyl]

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yet Adam and Eve and Cain and onwards were considered to be transgressors. Therefore, a law must have been known and in place if they were considered to be transgressors.

Your comments contradicts what Moses wrote about the ten commandments being a covenant not made with the fathers.
Deu 5:3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even,
Your comments contradicts what Jesus said about the law.
Jhn 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Your commentary contradicts what John wrote.
Jhn 1:17For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Your comments contradicts what Paul say about when the law was added to the Abrahamic covenant until when the seed came and died.
Gal 3:19Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Are you saying that our Creator was wrong to destroy the antediluvians because they had no law and therefore could not be transgressors of a no-law? The Creator is always right, you know.

I dont recognize that line of reasoning, when did God destroy them? When did I singlr them out or imply that anyone had the law?

a commandment is the same as a law. Especially if it comes from justifiable authority. One definition of commandment is: an order given by one in authority, expecting to be obeyed. Such orders are laws.

A commandment can be a law but a commandment given to one person is not always a law. God commanded Adam and Eve against eating from the tree of good and evil. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.

God commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Was that a law or just a commandment to Moses alone? Moses trespassed God's commandment by stiking the rock twice?

Num 20:8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

Num 27:14For ye rebelled against my commandment in the desert of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, to sanctify me at the water before their eyes: that [is] the water of Meribah in Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.

Deu 32:51Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

I dont expect acknowledgment of this fundermental truth.

 

[Laodicean]

God's justice did not claim that they broke given laws. God's justice help us to understand why "sin" definition always means "to miss", or "to miss the mark."

What is this "mark" that is missed? We need to know what the "mark" is in order to know if we have missed it or not.

Having people take a partial quote as a premise from out of the context from 1John 3:4 should be examined fully.
Claiming that the definition of sin is; "trangression of the law" is not totally a false statement, but it contradict so many scriptures.

NT proves in clear words that the law was not given at that time.
When Jesus said;Jhn 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

I dont have to argue about it. I believe what Jesus said about when the law was given.
When Paul said; Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I dont have to argue, I believe whom Jesus chose to teach doctrine to Gentiles.

Right, no need to argue. I'm in agreement with you that the ten commandments were not mentioned until Exodus 20.

Are you suggesting that just because something is not mentioned specifically in Scripture that, therefore, such a thing does not exist? It seems that you are saying that just because, for example, the eighth commandment is not specifically mentioned before Exodus 20, that, therefore, it was okay to steal up until that time. Is this your view?

The listing of the commandments concerning the rich young ruler is a lesson that proves, "keeping all the commandments in th law" is good but it's not what gets you etrnal life. Believing in Jesus to follow Him get's you into the kingdom.

I agree. And believing in Jesus and following Him can be summed up in the first four commandments. Keeping just the last six will not gain you eternal life. But following God in the manner described in the first four commandments, that is what will guarantee us eternal life. The last six principles are just the fruit of the first four.

 

[Laodicean]

Your comments contradicts what Moses wrote about the ten commandments being a covenant not made with the fathers.
Deu 5:3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even,

except, remember, I understand "covenant" to mean "agreement" or "promise." There were many covenants made in Scripture, agreements in relation to many different things.

So when Moses says, "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers," I understand that to mean that the Lord made this particular agreement or promise, not with the fathers but with those at Sinai. What was this promise or agreement? You shall not break any of these ten commandments for I promise that I will write my laws in your hearts."

Unfortunately, the Israelites took it upon themselves to make their own covenant, or promise or agreement, "All that the Lord says, we will do." Theirs was a covenant (or promise) to do works -- the old covenant or agreement. God's was a covenant (or promise) of grace -- the new promise, new to the Israelites but existing from the moment of entry of sin into Eden.

Your comments contradicts what Jesus said about the law.
Jhn 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jesus was referring to the sixth commandment here, "why go you about to kill me." When was the sixth commandment verbalized and written out? When Moses gave the law that God gave him.

Again, are you suggesting that up until Moses, it was okay to murder?

Your commentary contradicts what John wrote.
Jhn 1:17For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And when grace and truth come, are we released to steal and murder and be unfaithful? Do we put other gods before the Creator? You seem to think that grace and truth means that we will be released to now break the law as given on Sinai. Is this your position?

Your comments contradicts what Paul say about when the law was added to the Abrahamic covenant until when the seed came and died.
Gal 3:19Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Yes, the law, as expressed in ten-commandment form, was added because of the transgressions of humans who had strayed far from the principles of those ten commands. Surely, you aren't suggesting that there was no expectation of moral behavior before Sinai?

Laodicean said: Are you saying that our Creator was wrong to destroy the antediluvians because they had no law and therefore could not be transgressors of a no-law? The Creator is always right, you know.
​

I dont recognize that line of reasoning, when did God destroy them? When did I singlr them out or imply that anyone had the law?

maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that there was no law before the flood. If so, why would the antediluvians be destroyed for being evil and corrupt if there was no standard of evil and corruption by which to identify evil and corruption?

Again, what is the standard for recognizing evil and/or knowing good?

A commandment can be a law but a commandment given to one person is not always a law. God commanded Adam and Eve against eating from the tree of good and evil. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.

I agree with you that commands given to specific individuals are not a law for all humanity. But commands given from a mountain top, with the voice of God, and written with His finger, and handed by Moses to a group of people, and passed on from generation to generation -- these commands are to be considered universal in their application (except, for some strange reason, that fourth command).

God commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Was that a law or just a commandment to Moses alone? Moses trespassed God's commandment by stiking the rock twice?

I agree with you. That was a command to just Moses alone. That was not a law to the whole world.

Num 20:8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

Num 27:14For ye rebelled against my commandment in the desert of Zin, in the strife of the congregation, to sanctify me at the water before their eyes: that [is] the water of Meribah in Kadesh in the wilderness of Zin.

Deu 32:51Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

I dont expect acknowledgment of this fundermental truth.

I acknowledge that these texts are examples of individual commands that are not universal to all humanity.

 

[Cribstyl]

What is this "mark" that is missed? We need to know what the "mark" is in order to know if we have missed it or not.

Why question yourself away from the Hebrew and Greek definition of SIN?

Right, no need to argue. I'm in agreement with you that the ten commandments were not mentioned until Exodus 20.

Somehow I dont think I am not communicating as well as I thought I could. I did not reference Ex20. I referenced what Jesus and others said. You're ignoring from even referencing the text I am explaining. They pointed to when and to whom the law was given. You have to ignor them because you have doctrines that compiles other socalled truths.

Your question techniques applies reasoning to whatever you want to deny or ignor as truth.

Are you suggesting that just because something is not mentioned specifically in Scripture that, therefore, such a thing does not exist? It seems that you are saying that just because, for example, the eighth commandment is not specifically mentioned before Exodus 20, that, therefore, it was okay to steal up until that time. Is this your view?

Obviously, that's what you're presenting as scriptures and truth. I'm not suggesting anything, I am explaining scriptures that you should also explain in context.
We can always disagree, but we should be able to understand each other, without putting word in each other mouth.

I have never claimed it is ok to sin. You can review my words, did I say that Christian should sin?

I agree. And believing in Jesus and following Him can be summed up in the first four commandments. Keeping just the last six will not gain you eternal life. But following God in the manner described in the first four commandments, that is what will guarantee us eternal life. The last six principles are just the fruit of the first four.

You dont say.

 

[Cribstyl]

Thanks Laodicean, you've been a sport. I need to work on my respectful communication. God bless you Sir.

 

[Laodicean]

I have never claimed it is ok to sin. You can review my words, did I say that Christian should sin?

I'm trying to follow your line of thought, Cribstyl. I thought you were saying that we are not required to keep the ten commandments since they were given to only a certain people at a certain time in history. Did I misunderstand you?

Okay, let's pretend that I don't know anything about our Creator or the Bible. You, as a Christian, come along and inform me that it is not okay to sin.

I ask you, "What is sin?"

How would you describe "sin" so that I can understand what it is that is NOT okay?

 

[Laodicean]

Thanks Laodicean, you've been a sport. I need to work on my respectful communication. God bless you Sir.

oh, were you being disrespectful? I had not thought so because my filter on the world is set to "give the benefit of the doubt," especially when I cannot hear the tone in which words are written.

God bless you, too, ma'am.

 

[Cribstyl]

oh, were you being disrespectful? I had not thought so because my filter on the world is set to "give the benefit of the doubt," especially when I cannot hear the tone in which words are written.

God bless you, too, ma'am.

Cant wait to get back to answers your question....( I am a guy)

Most SDA posters see me as attacking their doctrines, so I' get nervous....

I'll get back to ya after sabbath meetings (church)

 

[Cribstyl]

I'm trying to follow your line of thought, Cribstyl. I thought you were saying that we are not required to keep the ten commandments since they were given to only a certain people at a certain time in history. Did I misunderstand you?

Actually, a person should keep whatever they believe that God is commanding them to keep or they are commiting sin against their conscience.

You've presented that a law was transgressed from creation by saying;
yet Adam and Eve and Cain and onwards were considered to be transgressors. Therefore, a law must have been known and in place if they were considered to be transgressors.

I disagreed with your statement and explained that Adam and Eve trangressed the commandment that they were given to them not a law.
A light should come on in the heads of some people about why Adam and Eve would had known about adultery or the other commendments with a death penalty attached.
Only commentary can change creation's story to say that Adam and Eve transgressed commandments ,w,x,y,z. The fact that God judges them for the 1commandment does prove what they transgressed rather than the list that some SDA members claim to argue 10commandment given in creation.
Please remember who is proving what the scriptures say, verses implying the law without proving it as given, or the law being used to judge those who break the word of the law.
The burden of proof should and does lie on the shoulder of those who say more than the scriptures say.

Okay, let's pretend that I don't know anything about our Creator or the Bible. You, as a Christian, come along and inform me that it is not okay to sin.

I ask you, "What is sin?"

How would you describe "sin" so that I can understand what it is that is NOT okay?

Sin is act of man's free will that reflects on evil rather that good. What God reveals in the bible are lessons we need to apply to understanding from beginning to the end.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

I'm trying to follow your line of thought, Cribstyl. I thought you were saying that we are not required to keep the ten commandments since they were given to only a certain people at a certain time in history. Did I misunderstand you?

​

Actually, a person should keep whatever they believe that God is commanding them to keep or they are commiting sin against their conscience.

Okay. So do you believe that God is commanding us to love our fellow human beings by refraining from any of the following? Please indicate which of these you feel God has NOT commanded all humans to keep. I'm leaving a blank space for your answers to each individual command. Please fill that space.

we must not murder our fellow man. Keep or don't keep?


we must not not steal from each other. Keep or don't keep?


we must not lie about each other. Keep or don't keep?


we must not covet what belongs to another. Keep or don't keep?


we must respect and honor our parents. Keep or don't keep?


we must be faithful and pure in our relationships. Keep or don't keep?



This may seem like a trivial exercise, but I'm serious, and I hope you are. So please take the time to answer each of the above, okay? I'd really appreciate it.

Also please indicate which of the following are NOT commands of God to human beings in general

God must be first in our lives. Keep or don't keep?


We must not worship false gods. Keep or don't keep?


We must not pretend to be followers of God when, in fact, we are not His followers. Keep or don't keep?

You've presented that a law was transgressed from creation by saying;
yet Adam and Eve and Cain and onwards were considered to be transgressors. Therefore, a law must have been known and in place if they were considered to be transgressors.

I disagreed with your statement and explained that Adam and Eve trangressed the commandment that they were given to them not a law.

At the deepest level, there was a law of physics that was broken when Adam and Eve chose to distrust God's wisdom. This law was the law of life (Romans 8:2, first part). In its place, the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2, last part) took over when our first parents unplugged themselves from the source of eternal life.

The command to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a universal command that becomes a law to all mankind. It is in the category of the command given to Moses to speak to the rock. I agree with you on this.

The real law that was broken in Eden is the first law of the ten commandments. The first law says, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Adam and Eve transgressed that law by putting other priorities ahead of God's counsel and command on a particular matter.

A light should come on in the heads of some people about why Adam and Eve would had known about adultery or the other commendments with a death penalty attached.

Adam and Eve did not need to know about stealing or killing or adultery. That was not an issue at that time. They needed to know that going against God's counsel would lead to certain death (Genesis 2:17). The death penalty was attached to a pathway of distrusting God and going one's own way. All life is in God. To leave God is to go to death.

I know you don't want to hear commentary, Cribstyl, but I'm just sharing with you my understanding of Genesis 2. Okay? You don't have to agree.

Only commentary can change creation's story to say that Adam and Eve transgressed commandments ,w,x,y,z. The fact that God judges them for the 1commandment does prove what they transgressed rather than the list that some SDA members claim to argue 10commandment given in creation.

The principles of the 10 commandments were not given at creation in the form in which they were elaborated upon at Sinai, and I don't think SDAs make this claim.

 

[Kira Light]

I'm trying to follow your line of thought, Cribstyl. I thought you were saying that we are not required to keep the ten commandments since they were given to only a certain people at a certain time in history. Did I misunderstand you?

Okay, let's pretend that I don't know anything about our Creator or the Bible. You, as a Christian, come along and inform me that it is not okay to sin.

I ask you, "What is sin?"

How would you describe "sin" so that I can understand what it is that is NOT okay?

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Is it "okay" to sin? Yes, it better be or we are all lost.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

I ask you, "What is sin?"

How would you describe "sin" so that I can understand what it is that is NOT okay?
​

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Kira, you have quoted from a passage in Scripture (Romans 14) that is all about not judging each other for our beliefs. I don't find it helpful in guiding me personally in forming my own beliefs as to right and wrong. I want to know what this God of the Bible wants of me -- this God that you Christians are trying to introduce to me. Could you be a little more specific?

Is it "okay" to sin? Yes, it better be or we are all lost.

So are you saying that it is not okay to lie and steal and murder in the eyes of earthly governments, but with our Creator it is okay? I mean, on earth, we pay a penalty for breaking such laws. And likewise, Scripture tells us that there is a penalty for breaking God's laws. So I don't think the answer is that it is okay to sin.

You are right that we are all lost....we have broken the laws of the universe, and death is embedded in the path we have chosen. The fact that the only way to make an exit from that pathway was for God to die in our place, is evidence that sin is not okay and it is not okay to sin. We are indeed all lost...except for Jesus' intervention.

 

[Cribstyl]

Laodiciean,

the answers to your questions does not mean that law was given at creation. Wisdom of the bible is not reached by questions that forces "the right answer"

The fact that love fulfills the ten commandment does mean that they're interchangeable.

What Jesus say about the law.
What law was Jesus saying that Moses gave? Why should we the bible prove different from what Jesus is saying? Jhn 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

What John wrote in the NT about the law.
Jhn 1:17For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.



Paul wrote epistles teaching the facts; from exactly what Genesis-Exodus declares. Sin was in the world before the law was given.
Rom 5:12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


The truth is written for our understanding not to manipulate doctrines by questions. God's true doctrines are reenforced rather than being silent.


Gal 3:19Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

 

[Kira Light]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

I ask you, "What is sin?"

How would you describe "sin" so that I can understand what it is that is NOT okay?
​

Kira, you have quoted from a passage in Scripture (Romans 14) that is all about not judging each other for our beliefs. I don't find it helpful in guiding me personally in forming my own beliefs as to right and wrong. I want to know what this God of the Bible wants of me -- this God that you Christians are trying to introduce to me. Could you be a little more specific?



So are you saying that it is not okay to lie and steal and murder in the eyes of earthly governments, but with our Creator it is okay? I mean, on earth, we pay a penalty for breaking such laws. And likewise, Scripture tells us that there is a penalty for breaking God's laws. So I don't think the answer is that it is okay to sin.

You are right that we are all lost....we have broken the laws of the universe, and death is embedded in the path we have chosen. The fact that the only way to make an exit from that pathway was for God to die in our place, is evidence that sin is not okay and it is not okay to sin. We are indeed all lost...except for Jesus' intervention.

If you want a checklist of things you can and can't do in order to be saved, you won't find one. You are not saved or lost by works.

Love God. Love your neighbor. Win.

 

[Laodicean]

If you want a checklist of things you can and can't do in order to be saved, you won't find one. You are not saved or lost by works.

I did not ask what I could do in order to be saved, Kira. I asked how to know what God wants of me. This God of yours, you say, has saved me through no works of my own. I am so very grateful for this gift, and I accept it wholeheartedly.

Now, is there anything that Gods wants of me, now that I am in a saved condition?

Love God. Love your neighbor. Win.

Okay, that's an answer. Your God requires of me that I love Him and love my neighbor, right? Help me out further.

What are the things that I must do in order to show my love to God and to my neighbor? Not to save myself, mind you, for I am told that no works of mine will ever earn me eternal life. Great. But now I want to show gratitude to my Saviour.

How do I identify what love to God is and what love to my neighbor is?

 

[Kira Light]

I did not ask what I could do in order to be saved, Kira. I asked how to know what God wants of me. This God of yours, you say, has saved me through no works of my own. I am so very grateful for this gift, and I accept it wholeheartedly.

Now, is there anything that Gods wants of me, now that I am in a saved condition?



Okay, that's an answer. Your God requires of me that I love Him and love my neighbor, right? Help me out further.

What are the things that I must do in order to show my love to God and to my neighbor? Not to save myself, mind you, for I am told that no works of mine will ever earn me eternal life. Great. But now I want to show gratitude to my Saviour.

How do I identify what love to God is and what love to my neighbor is?

How did you already get back to "things that I must do"? There is not a list of things you can check off and get saved. People are unique, and their love of God and neighbor will manifest itself in different ways. However, it is not the manifestation of that love that saves a person, it is the actual love that initiated it.

 

[Laodicean]

How did you already get back to "things that I must do"? There is not a list of things you can check off and get saved. People are unique, and their love of God and neighbor will manifest itself in different ways. However, it is not the manifestation of that love that saves a person, it is the actual love that initiated it.

Kira, you are not hearing me. I am not looking for a list of things to do to be saved. I acknowledge that I am already saved simply by my accepting the gift of salvation.

Now that I am saved, is there anything that I can do out of gratitude for my salvation? How do I show my love to God and love to my neighbor?

 

[Kira Light]

Kira, you are not hearing me. I am not looking for a list of things to do to be saved. I acknowledge that I am already saved simply by my accepting the gift of salvation.

Now that I am saved, is there anything that I can do out of gratitude for my salvation? How do I show my love to God and love to my neighbor?

You can be humble and admit it is all God and none of you that brings salvation. Do you really think there is anything you can do to adequately show your thanks for all God has given you? Did Jesus die just to get something back from you in the form of a 'thank you'?

God knows your heart. He doesn't need you to show him anything.

 

[Joe67]

The father of faith was personally addressed by the Lord and told to do something and then he was promised three events.

The Lord would show Abram the land to which he was being sent.

Then the Lord would make a great nation of Abram.

The capstone of the communication was that Abram would be a blessing.

Gen 12:1-4
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. KJV

Joe