Son of Man

[Trichakra]

Jesus is creator of universe.

 

[TL Easley]

I feel it is best to keep the focus on the process of spiritual development rather than on individual beliefs for the same reason you want to focus on the cause rather than the symptoms of a problem. With that said, I'm going to share a few beliefs since they are uncommon.

Without defining "salvation", I agree with the Christian idea that one has to be born again in order to be saved. However, I believe that to be born again means you become the "Son of Man".

Man -> born again -> Son of Man (SoM)

Pretty straightforward right? The Jewish idea of a Messiah I believe to be completely separate to what Jesus was and taught. All of the mentions of SoM in the Old Testament, or pre-Jesus, I believe to be a product of Christian interpolation: Christian interpolation - Wikipedia

I believe Jesus to be the creator of the Son of Man phrase.

TreasurerHunter12:

You are indeed hunting for a great and wondrous treasure with this topic.

SON OF MAN the favorite self designation of Jesus.
By which he meant SON OF ADAM
For to be the Kinsman Redeemer of all Mankind he must be a near relative to ADAM,
Be able to redeem and be wiling to redeem. If you redeem ADAM you redeem the whole race of men in one simple, elegant and decisive move.
As ABEL he was the only begotten of the Father (Adam) for Cain was of that wicked one and Seth was not born until after Abel was brutally murdered (slain) by his half brother Kayin (Cane). To the angels HABEL was the only begotten of the Father (Adam) for his entire life he was the first born and the only born son of Adam and yes, he was he was slain like a lamb at the foundation of the world.
ABEL is able to redeem because he is exempt from the curse for he was conceived before the curse was pronounced and life begins at conception. He is wiling to redeem for the joy that was set before him. It now becomes less important if he is messiah for that is a Jewish matter and the Jews reject him in this role. As REDEEMER he saves all mankind Jew and Gentile alike. If you have ears to hear everywhere in scripture he is telling you WHO he is. He is ABEL born again in Christ. The Good Shepherd, the Son of ADAM, the Prince of Peace and The first born of the dead for as ABEL he was the first to die.

 

[Uber Genius]

I feel it is best to keep the focus on the process of spiritual development rather than on individual beliefs for the same reason you want to focus on the cause rather than the symptoms of a problem. With that said, I'm going to share a few beliefs since they are uncommon.

Without defining "salvation", I agree with the Christian idea that one has to be born again in order to be saved. However, I believe that to be born again means you become the "Son of Man".

Man -> born again -> Son of Man (SoM)

Pretty straightforward right? The Jewish idea of a Messiah I believe to be completely separate to what Jesus was and taught. All of the mentions of SoM in the Old Testament, or pre-Jesus, I believe to be a product of Christian interpolation: Christian interpolation - Wikipedia

I believe Jesus to be the creator of the Son of Man phrase.

So you have given us your belief, now how do you justify that belief?

Scholars agree tha "Son of Man" is an idiom representing the messiah. Do we become the messiah on our rebirth as Christians.

Please give us reasons and references.

 

[TL Easley]

Uber Genius:

The question you ask..." Do we become the messiah on our rebirth as Christians. " indicates an advanced mind habituated to the contest of testing truth. It is indeed an excellent question only asked by the few who will conduct a learned investigation into the Mystery of Godliness and the Mystery of Christ.

He was so much more than a Jewish Messiah (anointed) King (or GK Christos)

He was, and is, the REDEEMER of All HuMan kind, both Jew and Gentile alike.

With that being said…

The simple, short, sure and certain answer to your question is, without reservation a quite definitive

YES. (just as you may have already suspected and deduced)

Why?

Because all the fullness of Godhood dwells in him bodily and all power in both Heaven and Earth has been given to him and the scripture saith….you shall be like him, for as he is, so are you, in this world.

1 John 4:17

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Col 2:9

"For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." (RSV) A note in the Greek-English Lexicon, by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich sums up one of the views - that the word 'bodily' qualifies 'dwells', that the 'fullness' dwells in Christ Jesus "in reality, not symbolically."

2 Ch 29:11

Yours, LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, LORD, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all.

You will bear his Image, You will have his Mind, and you shall Know as you are Known.

Romans 8:29

For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Philippians 2:5&6

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

1 Cor. 13:12

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. The glass here is a mirror. If you see someone in a mirror what does that imply? You are looking at yourself. You have become him.

Mortal shall put on immortality, perishable shall put on imperishability and corruption shall put on incorruption. You are a joint heir of Christ (your brother) to all things and in imitation of Christ you must walk that straight and narrow path that leads to life, take up your cross and follow him to overcome the world and receive the overcomers crown of life to place at the feet of the Father in Heaven to demonstrate your mission complete.

After being Chosen by Election you shall be Born Again from the dead into the Body of Christ to do the same work He did (the work of redemption) , the same way he did it (Crucifying the flesh), to achieve the same result….Eternal Redemption of the Soul by the same authority.

Uber, I did not have time to answer all your questions and provide the proof texts I wanted. Perhaps another time. May the God of Peace grant that you see his face, hear his voice, know his name and that he be not ashamed to call you "Brother" Peace Be With You.

 

[TL Easley]

Excerpt: The Testament of Abraham wherein Michael the Archangel identifies the Son of Man as ABEL.

12. While he was yet saying these things to me, behold two angels, fiery in aspect, and pitiless in mind, and severe in look, and they drove on thousands of souls, pitilessly lashing them with fiery thongs. The angel laid hold of one soul, and they drove all the souls in at the broad gate to destruction. So we also went along with the angels, and came within that broad gate, and between the two gates stood a throne terrible of aspect, of terrible crystal, gleaming as fire, and upon it sat a wondrous man bright as the sun, like to the Son of God. Before him stood a table like crystal, all of gold and fine linen, and upon the table there was lying a book, the thickness of it six cubits, and the breadth of it ten cubits, and on the right and left of it stood two angels holding paper and ink and pen. Before the table sat an angel of light, holding in his hand a balance, and on his left sat an angel all fiery, pitiless, and severe, holding in his hand a trumpet, having within it all-consuming fire with which to try the sinners. The wondrous man who sat upon the throne himself judged and sentenced the souls, and the two angels on the right and on the left wrote down, the one on the right the righteousness and the one on the left the wickedness. The one before the table, who held the balance, weighed the souls, and the fiery angel, who held the fire, tried the souls. And Abraham asked the chief-captain Michael, What is this that we behold? And the chief-captain said, These things that you see, holy Abraham, are the judgment and recompense. And behold the angel holding the soul in his hand, and he brought it before the judge, and the judge said to one of the angels that served him, Open me this book, and find me the sins of this soul. And opening the book he found its sins and its righteousness equally balanced, and he neither gave it to the tormentors, nor to those that were saved, but set it in the midst.

13. And Abraham said, My Lord chief-captain, who is this most wondrous judge? And who are the angels that write down? And who is the angel like the sun, holding the balance? And who is the fiery angel holding the fire? The chief-captain said, Do you see, most holy Abraham, the terrible man sitting upon the throne? This is the son of the first created Adam, who is called Abel, whom the wicked Cain killed, and he sits thus to judge all creation, and examines righteous men and sinners. For God has said, I shall not judge you, but every man born of man shall be judged. Therefore he has given to him judgment, to judge the world until his great and glorious coming, and then, O righteous Abraham, is the perfect judgment and recompense, eternal and unchangeable, which no one can alter. For every man has come from the first-created, and therefore they are first judged here by his son, and at the second coming they shall be judged by the twelve tribes of Israel, every breath and every creature. But the third time they shall be judged by the Lord God of all, and then, indeed, the end of that judgment is near, and the sentence terrible, and there is none to deliver. And now by three tribunals the judgment of the world and the recompense is made, and for this reason a matter is not finally confirmed by one or two witnesses, but by three witnesses shall everything be established. The two angels on the right hand and on the left, these are they that write down the sins and the righteousness, the one on the right hand writes down the righteousness, and the one on the left the sins. The angel like the sun, holding the balance in his hand, is the archangel, Dokiel the just weigher, and he weighs the righteousnesses and sins with the righteousness of God. The fiery and pitiless angel, holding the fire in his hand, is the archangel Puruel, who has power over fire, and tries the works of men through fire, and if the fire consume the work of any man, the angel of judgment immediately seizes him, and carries him away to the place of sinners, a most bitter place of punishment. But if the fire approves the work of anyone, and does not seize upon it, that man is justified, and the angel of righteousness takes him and carries him up to be saved in the lot of the just. And thus, most righteous Abraham, all things in all men are tried by fire and the balance.

 

[danny ski]

Put not your trust in princes, Nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

 

[TL Easley]

“…Put not your trust in princes, Nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help…”

“son of man” here means “Human beings” not the unique Son of Man (Son of Adam—ABEL born again in Christ) that will judge precisely because he is the Son of Man/Son of Adam (Only ABEL is a qualified and duly authorized kinsman redeemer of ADAM and through ADAM the entire race of Men).

John 5:27

“…And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man…” (By which it is meant that he is the Son of ADAM, The first martyr and good shepherd, Righteous ABEL). Before Abraham was, he was and Moses did write about him in Genesis .

So the sense of the verse quoted above is more precisely to not put your trust in government (princes) or human beings.

It would be an error to consider this passage as having the meaning and effect of not to trust in the Prince of Peace or the Son of Man which is ABEL born again in Christ, the first to be born again from the deal for he was the first member of the dead.

“…For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad…” 2 Cor 5:10

 

[Noxot]

So you have given us your belief, now how do you justify that belief?

Scholars agree tha "Son of Man" is an idiom representing the messiah. Do we become the messiah on our rebirth as Christians.

Please give us reasons and references.

so we are not the body of Christ then I guess?

 

[TL Easley]

so we are not the body of Christ then I guess?

At present in the here and now you are

In Adam

Concieved in sin, brought forth in inquity, born by the will of man into a body of flesh and blood. A living soul on a soul journey in the earth. Corruptable, subject to death. A HuMan, similar to Man but not quite the same for it does not mean Man Kind but a Kind of Man. There is only one MAN in this story ADAM. Everyone else is HuMan not Man.

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God it is necessary that you must be born again, born of the Spirit. This time by the will of God . That which is born of the Spirit is incorruptible . Since God the Holy Spirit is father of Spirits this is when you become a child of God for God is spirit, love and light and no man has seen God at any time. They have seen the father (Adam) however. For Adam is the father of the race of men (by which I mean Adam and Eve for He called their name Adam).

You are in Adam now, but when you are born again from the dead you will have His body and His name, you will be literally in Christ and whatsoever you ask it will be done for that body, that name, that mind and Spirit is above all powers and principalities in both heaven and earth. You will bear his image and you will do the same.e work he did and even greater works you will do. Its really awesome the depths of our salvation that once attained is forever gained without fear of loss. You may be "positionally" in Christ the moment you believe but you are born and will die in Adam and you will sin until the day you die. While you will not sin as you once did you will hardly put your head on the pillow without commuting some type of sin for such is life in a fallen world and body of flesh. Therefore Jesus told us we must be born again and literally put on Christ. He is the pattern Sin of God and in his rebirth was born of the Spirit. As ABEL he was born of the flesh and was made perfect by what he suffered. In imitation of Christ you too must be obiedent into feat even the death of the cross to crucify the flesh to live into the Spirit.

 

[TL Easley]

At present in the here and now you are

In Adam

Concieved in sin, brought forth in inquity, born by the will of man into a body of flesh and blood. A living soul on a soul journey in the earth. Corruptable, subject to death. A HuMan, similar to Man but not quite the same for it does not mean Man Kind but a Kind of Man. There is only one MAN in this story ADAM. Everyone else is HuMan not Man.

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God it is necessary that you must be born again, born of the Spirit. This time by the will of God . That which is born of the Spirit is incorruptible . Since God the Holy Spirit is father of Spirits this is when you become a child of God for God is spirit, love and light and no man has seen God at any time. They have seen the father (Adam) however. For Adam is the father of the race of men (by which I mean Adam and Eve for He called their name Adam).

You are in Adam now, but when you are born again from the dead you will have His body and His name, you will be literally in Christ and whatsoever you ask it will be done for that body, that name, that mind and Spirit is above all powers and principalities in both heaven and earth. You will bear his image and you will do the same.e work he did and even greater works you will do. Its really awesome the depths of our salvation that once attained is forever gained without fear of loss. You may be "positionally" in Christ the moment you believe but you are born and will die in Adam and you will sin until the day you die. While you will not sin as you once did you will hardly put your head on the pillow without commuting some type of sin for such is life in a fallen world and body of flesh. Therefore Jesus told us we must be born again and literally put on Christ. He is the pattern Sin of God and in his rebirth was born of the Spirit. As ABEL he was born of the flesh and was made perfect by what he suffered. In imitation of Christ you too must be obiedent into feat even the death of the cross to crucify the flesh to live into the Spirit.

Sorry, should read... "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross"

For many are Called, but few are Chosen and fewer still are Faithful

Few they be that find the way of life and once found only a few of those will take up the cross and follow Him in that straight and narrow way for it is the way of suffering, ignominy and death. But even so the joy that will be set before you will be well worth it.

As we are he once was, as He is we may become for the goal of every disciple is to become as his Master.

 

[TL Easley]

If we have son of man, then we SHOULD have son-of-not-man. Otherwise, there is no need for the term.
Who is the son-of-not-man?

juvenissun: Your question is a brilliant one, few think to even ask and is an indicator of your clear thought process and deductive reasoning.

The answer to your question is CAIN

ABEL is the Son of Man (Adam)
CAIN is the Son of Satan (Saturn)

The Son of Saturn is Jupiter and Jupiter is Jehovah, the God of this world and prince of the age, who's very name is the name of blasphemy, for the greatest blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to claim to be God when you are not.

Abel is the son of Adam and Eve
Cain is the Son of Satan and Eve

Cain and Abel are half-brothers
hetropaternal twins. ("superfundacation")
The medical term for when a woman is impregnated by two different men at the same time.

Therefore Eve is described as the "Mother of all the living"
A title not afforded to Adam for he is the father of the race of Men only

With Satan as his father Cain was a demigod, Half-God, for Satan is a member of the Elohim "The Gods" and not a fallen angel as it is supposed by some. A Hybrid, part serpent (reptilian "Sauron" GK "Lizard") part Human.

Cain is not just the "son of not-man" as you suppose, Cain is none other than the immortal anti-Christ and the "Mark of Cain" is one in the same as the "Mark of the Beast". The Serpent Beast, "the most subtle beast of the field" which is to say the "king of beasts". Not the Lion as it is supposed by many.

Yes, the antiChrist has been here all along, from the beginning He is Cain/Jupiter/Jehovah/Zeus

ABEL=Christ, born again from the dead into Jesus (Joshua)
CAIN= Anti-Christ, who masquerades as God and lives in a temple made of hands.

 

[juvenissun]

juvenissun: Your question is a brilliant one, few think to even ask and is an indicator of your clear thought process and deductive reasoning.

The answer to your question is CAIN

ABEL is the Son of Man (Adam)
CAIN is the Son of Satan (Saturn)

Son of Satan. Good idea.
But that is enough. No need to the rest of elaborations and imaginations.
Thanks.

 

[Uber Genius]

so we are not the body of Christ then I guess?

Non-sequitur.

How does your claim above justify or warrant through argument or evidence that we become the "son of man" as used in Matthew's gospel or as understood by any second temple Jew reading the book of Daniel. Son of man is also the cloud rider ruling over the world are we The cloud rider?

Definite article is key in both regards "the" NOT "an."

Please provide arguments and premises. A figurative reference to the body does not make messiah! Or the second person of the trinity for that matter.

 

[Noxot]

Non-sequitur.

How does your claim above justify or warrant through argument or evidence that we become the "son of man" as used in Matthew's gospel or as understood by any second temple Jew reading the book of Daniel. Son of man is also the cloud rider ruling over the world are we The cloud rider?

Definite article is key in both regards "the" NOT "an."

Please provide arguments and premises. A figurative reference to the body does not make messiah! Or the second person of the trinity for that matter.

are you or are you not his hands or feet or something? personally I believe myself to be some of his gut flora.

that's right, there's only one body.

I don't know, Jesus seems to have told us that we can be his mother and brother and sister if we obey his Fathers will. that sounds like the kingdom of God to me.

the second person of the Trinity is fully human so where do humans get their humanity from? but I would agree that we have to be other than God.

figurative reference? so we are Gods child only figuratively then? that makes no sense to me.

I think the relationship I have with God is closer so I guess I would call them figurative too. as if a description such as "bride" or "son" could ever express what God is to me and what I am to God!

I ride clouds because I don't let my knowledge rule over me. what's your criteria for being a cloud rider? is it to literally fly in the sky and ride them? i'm a world. there is a king here. all the princes obey my whims and yet there are still a number of different principalities and powers here.

yes there is a greater world out there and i'm part of it but i'm also a world of my own and Christ in me is a proper principle and that means a lot more than some coercive king or government that people think God is like.

what an appeal to authority! to believe a second temple jew over the Spirit that gives me life everlasting. how horrible a fall must you have had to have trusted man instead of God.

 

[Uber Genius]

are you or are you not his hands or feet or something? personally I believe myself to be some of his gut flora.

that's right, there's only one body.

I don't know, Jesus seems to have told us that we can be his mother and brother and sister if we obey his Fathers will. that sounds like the kingdom of God to me.

the second person of the Trinity is fully human so where do humans get their humanity from? but I would agree that we have to be other than God.

figurative reference? so we are Gods child only figuratively then? that makes no sense to me.

I think the relationship I have with God is closer so I guess I would call them figurative too. as if a description such as "bride" or "son" could ever express what God is to me and what I am to God!

I ride clouds because I don't let my knowledge rule over me. what's your criteria for being a cloud rider? is it to literally fly in the sky and ride them? i'm a world. there is a king here. all the princes obey my whims and yet there are still a number of different principalities and powers here.

yes there is a greater world out there and i'm part of it but i'm also a world of my own and Christ in me is a proper principle and that means a lot more than some coercive king or government that people think God is like.

what an appeal to authority! to believe a second temple jew over the Spirit that gives me life everlasting. how horrible a fall must you have had to have trusted man instead of God.

This is very confusing. It seems there is nothing that can't be made up given how you read scripture.

Figurative language is usually not literal by definition. We have certain attributes in common with Jesus absolutely but we aren't now or ever will be:

The son of man (as Matt and Daniel refer to him)
Messiah
The cloud rider (although you might claim this if you have flown in an airplane)
2nd person fo the Trinity.

Finally butterfly in the English language has nothing to do with butter or flies strangely enough.

You are destroying what the original author and audience would have understood and replacing it with a word game that allows you to make up what ever you want (ad hoc).

I don't think I'm making any headway on exegeting vs eisogeting scripture. Best of luck.

 

[Noxot]

This is very confusing. It seems there is nothing that can't be made up given how you read scripture.

Figurative language is usually not literal by definition. We have certain attributes in common with Jesus absolutely but we aren't now or ever will be:

The son of man (as Matt and Daniel refer to him)
Messiah
The cloud rider (although you might claim this if you have flown in an airplane)
2nd person fo the Trinity.

Finally butterfly in the English language has nothing to do with butter or flies strangely enough.

You are destroying what the original author and audience would have understood and replacing it with a word game that allows you to make up what ever you want (ad hoc).

I don't think I'm making any headway on exegeting vs eisogeting scripture. Best of luck.

you are obviously the logical type. i'm more open than I am orderly.

what does eisogeting mean? btw the chief way to understand scripture is through contemplation and prayer. different parts of the brain can aid in understanding it in different ways as can a persons heart. it is not merely to be read in a human-logical manner. Gods wisdom is itself supra-rational which can at times appear to be irrational. anyways, God gifts us each in different ways.

you have an opinion and so do I. you think yours is better than mine and so you accept your perceptions because they make more sense than mine. that's fine, but I don't think your methods are as good as mine. your interpretation is typical. what is typical is not necessarily vital.

how does something that is typical become the official and fundamental truth about what the bible is trying to express? humans know God as much as they have the capacity to know him. so you have to ask yourself "what exactly is this capacity that can know God?".

the bible seems to make a distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man. humanity crucifies the truth because the world is a lowest common denominator of the best mixed in with the worst and so it's vital that our conversation be in heaven rather than in the earth.

 

[Noxot]

I think that what Jesus Christ intended for this world was far greater than some tiny nation that, like many nations, thinks itself to be great and wonderful.

I think that your understanding of the spiritual reality is lacking and so your interpretation of reality will tend to be based in materialistic/fleshly conceptions... which are just images that point to the reality.

so whatever is stated in the bible is true but they are images that point to a more fundamental reality in humanity and of the processes occurring in God.

what does messiah represent? he saves the sinner, right? reality is more than salvation from sin and being ruled over by God because we are sinful creatures that need to be told constantly, which kind of takes away the whole point of salvation from sin and keeps us forever bound to the law which is itself concerned with revealing and attempting to suppress sin.

the fullness of life is the very life that God has and I don't know what salvation can be other than to have God as Jesus has God. the kingdom of heaven is anarchy. God reigns through goodness, not through force. God wishes to be one with us and that is what salvation really is.

 

[CherubRam]

Son of man

Psalm 80:15
the root your right hand has planted, the son you have raised up for yourself.


Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.


John 10:36
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

 

[Uber Genius]

you are obviously the logical type. i'm more open than I am orderly.

what does eisogeting mean? btw the chief way to understand scripture is through contemplation and prayer. different parts of the brain can aid in understanding it in different ways as can a persons heart. it is not merely to be read in a human-logical manner. Gods wisdom is itself supra-rational which can at times appear to be irrational. anyways, God gifts us each in different ways.

you have an opinion and so do I. you think yours is better than mine and so you accept your perceptions because they make more sense than mine. that's fine, but I don't think your methods are as good as mine. your interpretation is typical. what is typical is not necessarily vital.

how does something that is typical become the official and fundamental truth about what the bible is trying to express? humans know God as much as they have the capacity to know him. so you have to ask yourself "what exactly is this capacity that can know God?".

the bible seems to make a distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man. humanity crucifies the truth because the world is a lowest common denominator of the best mixed in with the worst and so it's vital that our conversation be in heaven rather than in the earth.

Let me address your concerns above:

Eisegeting means reading into scripture things that the original author or audience would have never understood a passage or text to mean.

There are many ways to accomplish Eisegeting:

- ignore context of the writing
- ignore genre
- take figures of speech literally
- interpret texts allegorically

The chief way to understand scripture (as agreed to and taught by all seminaries in Protestant and Catholic Christianity is through exegesis! Contemplating and prayer come AFTER EXEGESIS!

for more on exegesis see: Basic Rules for New Testament Exegesis | Godward.org

We contemplate the truths the author shared with the original audience. We compare those to our own set of beliefs, and then examine where our beliefs are incongruous with the Biblical author's beliefs on spiritual truths.

We then pray that God help us remove our false beliefs and replace them with true beliefs. We pray that God through the HS would make us mindful of our false practices and help us renew our minds and perform biblically based practices.

This process of application of the output of our exegesis is broadly called hermeneutics.

We need both Exegesis and Hermeneutics in order to properly set the goals for conforming our lives to Christ's image.

Regarding "God's wisdom is supra-rational," I would simply reply that the fact that God's knowledge is unlike ours, or seems "irrational," at times, in no way suggest that we should abandon rationality trying to understand his wisdom.

God has created man with the essential attribute of rationality. He designed us that way. Further he created a world that allows us to explore that world through our senses and rationality which reveals his existence (Romans 1:18-20).

Jesus argued with evidence and rationality, as did Peter and Paul in Acts.

Your claims about typical not being vital is quite strange.

Is it typical to drive on the right side of the road in the US?

So do you drive on the left side of the road "to be vital?"

Most people typically beleive 2+2=4, do you claim it is some other value in order "to be vital?"

This is not a matter of belief or opinion. The scriptures aren't about a favorite color or favorite flavor of ice cream which would obviously be subject dependent!

The scriptures are about the true external world!

They are subject INDEPENDENT! That mean is the whole world voted they truth is X, but God says it is Y then THE WHOLE WORLD IS WRONG!

Objective truth about a spiritual world is discoverable only if one uses the methods above.

The difference between belief and knowledge is that knowledge requires reasons for beliefs or justification. I have given justification for exegesis over eisegesis in the form of the argument that on the latter anyone could make the scriptures say almost anything. This would make e scriptures SUBJECT DEPENDENT not DIVINE TRUTH FOR ALL PEOPLE, AND CULTURES ACROSS TIME!

There are other arguments or justifications I have given in that this is how Western Christianity scholarship is taught at seminaries.

You are welcome to give reasons why scripture reading should be subjective rather than objective in the interpretation phase that is. Remember that I don't deny APPLICATION IS SUBJECT DEPENDENT! Quite the opposite. Once I determine the truth the original audience would have understood then I ask how pull this truth apply to me in my culture and specifically my life.

It is the first phase (interpretation) we seem to disagree on, not the contemplation, prayer, and implementation of incorporating new truths in our lives.

Peter and John both make the point that they have not faked the evidence. They say their accounts are trustworthy. They present evidence,arguments and claims of spiritual truths to non-believers and believers alike. So do the gospel authors. Acts 13-19 gives us overwhelming evidence for Paul arguing evidence in synagogues, agoras, and other public venues. Jesus argues evidence from scriptures with the religious leaders and presents evidence from the Old Testiment to his disciples after he is written. Your argument for Christian irrationality is not supported by scriptural accounts whatsoever!

We have limits to our rationality, and application is personal and experiential. But I am just putting each in its own place, using them the way God designed them to be used. Studying (with rationality) the scriptures to show myself approved by God.

 

[Noxot]

I can't say that I disagree with all of your points because you made some good ones but how you understand something is going to be dependent on the kinds of spirits that you accept as the truth. if sin can use the law to warp a person then sin can use my or your process to warp us.

I suppose that a person who is logical and yet at the same time illogical might be a victim of "tunnel vision". I have often seen people measure God with some truth that God gives and they then turn around and use that truth to deny and reject further revelations that God gives.

in the end everyone makes their own decision about what is the truth and how God is like. there is absolutely no escape from a persons subjectivity and judgement. God did not intend that a persons freedom be destroyed and so we have to bear our curse of being a self and either being further away from or close to God.

Jesus walked on the water and peter did too for a bit but then he started to sink because he lacked faith. the weird thing about walking on water is that it leaves no footprints. kind of scary to have no clear cut path to follow ( now that I think about it... Jesus was the clear cut path). but for me, I don't think the supposed clear paths are very clear at all. I have found use in very many things, it does not mean i'm gonna carve an image from them and worship them. rich or poor the beast made all of them receive his mark.