Something that prevented me from being a Protestant

[Daniel Peres]

Here's the bias. I found it.

I don’t get it. Did I upset you by poking fun at Antinomian Protestants? You clearly are not one.

 

[Jonaitis]

I don’t get it. Did I upset you by poking fun at Antinomian Protestants? You clearly are not one.

I am not upset. I just found the bias in your position.

Tell me, why are you really a Roman Catholic? Is it the aesthetics and music? Or maybe the buildings? What external thing drew you?

 

[Margaret3110]

1) Indulgences were never permitted to be sold. That’s the sin of simony.

2) Maybe indulgences aren’t good. You know one of Martin Luther’s arguments against indulgences was they maybe souls didn’t not want to leave purgatory too soon. Martin Luther pointed out that the purification might be joyous for souls. After all, after purgatory, a soul has infused righteousness. For some reason Protestants are satisfied with imputed righteousness.

The Orthodox believe in theosis but do not teach indulgences (I hope I'm not mischaracterizing this, someone Orthodox feel free to correct me). Many (most?) Protestants also believe that we grow in holiness through Jesus Christ over the course of our lives; we just don't see that as the basis of our salvation.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I am not upset. I just found the bias in your position.

I have to admit, Antinomians drive me crazy.

Tell me, why are you really a Roman Catholic? Is it the aesthetics and music? Or maybe the buildings? What external thing drew you?

If I had to pick four reasons they would be:

1) I believe Jesus was very clear that to have faith in him is to be faithful to God’s moral law.

2) Then there is Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” What is a wider gate than Sola Fide?

3) We should be one, Just as Jesus wanted.

4) Protestant leaders have too much authority to change doctrines and morals. I feel much better knowing that popes and bishops in the Catholic Church have no authority to change doctrine or morals, because the truth doesn’t change.

How do you like my reasons?

 

[Jonaitis]

Then there is Matthew 7:13-14...What is a wider gate than Sola Fide?

You are playing the same cards as the people I aforementioned. Do you understand Sola Fide?

 

[Jonaitis]

Faith alone justifies but faith is never alone. It is followed by works. See James 2:14-26.

In this understanding, Protestants can properly say that a man is justified by his works.

 

[Daniel Peres]

You are playing the same cards as the people I aforementioned.

Protestants are constantly saying Catholicism is too complicated, and that salvation is really super easy. Do you deny this? I’m happy to be corrected if I am wrong. However, every Protestant I have ever conversed with has bragged about of easy salvation is supposed to be. So what kind of Protestant are you?

 

[Jonaitis]

Protestants are constantly saying Catholicism is too complicated, and that salvation is really super easy. Do you deny this? I’m happy to be corrected if I am wrong. However, every Protestant I have ever conversed with has bragged about of easy salvation is supposed to be. So what kind of Protestant are you?

How often did the Lord say, though in different ways, "believe and you shall be saved"? Did not Jesus say that the Kingdom of God is among us? Why, then, do Roman Catholics interpret this to be their instituted body and its sacraments?

 

[Daniel Peres]

Faith alone justifies but faith is never alone. It is followed by works. See James 2:14–26.

But you are saved by faith alone, right? The works have nothing to do with salvation. In your mind they are the result of salvation. In Catholicism faith includes faithfulness to God’s positive moral law. The good works are not in addition to, it is done out of faith itself.

BTW, I have interacted with many Protestants on these forums that would disagree with your view.

 

[Jonaitis]

In Catholicism faith includes faithfulness to God’s positive moral law. The good works are not in addition to, it is done out of faith itself.

You are presenting the historic Protestant view.

Protestants say that justification is a declaration, as in a legal court.

Roman Catholics say that justification is the process of becoming righteous through the infusing of God's grace via the sacraments, and that to cut yourself off from the sacraments is to cut yourself off from those benefits in Christ.

 

[Daniel Peres]

How often did the Lord say, though in different ways, "believe and you shall be saved"?

To believe in Jesus is to believe what he said also.

Did not Jesus say that the Kingdom of God is among us?

Yes.

Why, then, do Roman Catholics interpret this to be their instituted body and its sacraments?

Because Jesus built the Church, and he said it would be guided by the Holy Spirit, and we believe the Father, and the son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

After I decided to leave atheism and return to Christianity, I decided I had to choose what church to join. I was certain I did not want to return to the Catholic Church. But I kept running into the same problem with Protestant churches. Why did so many Protestants lie about the Catholic Church? I kept hearing accusations like Catholics worship Mary, and Catholics believe they earn salvation by doing good works.

Now, there are many legitimate differences between Catholics and Protestants. I even had my own issues with the Catholic Church. So I didn’t understand why the lies?

I would always explain that Catholics don’t do those things. I would always get the same response which was something like, “Yes Catholics believe those things, they just don’t know it. And I would always respond, “I think I would know if, as a former Catholic, I was worshiping Mary, and earning my salvation.”

How different is this from when Jews and Muslims say, “Christians are polytheistic whether they know it or not”? Or when leftists say, “White people are all racist whether they know it or not.”

I’m just saying, there are legitimate differences like infant baptism, and the real presence in the Eucharist. I see no reason to add lies to the mix. Especially since Jesus said the Devil is the father of all lies.

This is one thing that made it impossible for me to be a Protestant.

So if someone were to ask you, "What must I do to be saved", how would you answer him?

 

[Daniel Peres]

You are presenting the historic Protestant view.

I know. Every time I mention that, modern Protestants flip out.

Protestants say that justification is a declaration, as in a legal court.

Roman Catholics say that justification is the process of becoming righteous through the infusing of God's grace via the sacraments, and that to cut yourself off from the sacraments is to cut yourself off from those benefits in Christ.

The sacraments to give graces, and it’s your choice to be cut off from those benefits. That said, it certainly doesn’t mean you can’t receive God’s grace without the sacraments. God is not limited to the sacraments.

Also, we do believe salvation is an on going process, and as Jesus said, “Those that persevere until the end will be saved.” Was Jesus mistaken? You don’t have to persevere until the end?

 

[Jonaitis]

I know. Every time I mention that, modern Protestants flip out.

If you engaged more with the Reformed and Lutheran camp, you may be surprised to find a more similar view.

The sacraments to give graces, and it’s your choice to be cut off from those benefits. That said, it certainly doesn’t mean you can’t receive God’s grace without the sacraments. God is not limited to the sacraments.

I agree, but not in the same way. The Reformed view is that the sacraments are a means of grace for sanctification, though not for justification. We interpret them differently. They impart grace through its illustrations of the gospel, just as the Scriptures imparts grace through words. This is the "Spiritual View" held by Calvin and his successors. It is a way to explain the Presence of Christ without implying such presence in or with the elements themselves. You should learn more about it, and you may find more in agreement than with Rome.

Also, we do believe salvation is an on going process, and as Jesus said, “Those that persevere until the end will be saved.” Was Jesus mistaken? You don’t have to persevere until the end?

We distinguish progressive sanctification with positional sanctification. Yes, salvation is a process, but justification, which begins this process, is not. I gave up discussing with Roman Catholics when I was banned from the One Bread section on this site a few years ago (and still am banned).

 

[Jonaitis]

Because Jesus built the Church, and he said it would be guided by the Holy Spirit, and we believe the Father, and the son, and the Holy Spirit.

The "Catholic Church" is not confined to any institution, but the collective body of believers around the world.

 

[Daniel Peres]

If you engaged more with the Reformed and Lutheran camp, you may be surprised to find a more similar view.

I agree, but not in the same way. The Reformed view is that the sacraments are a means of grace for sanctification, though not for justification. We interpret them differently. They impart grace through its illustrations of the gospel, just as the Scriptures imparts grace through words. This is the "Spiritual View" held by Calvin and his successors. It is a way to explain the Presence of Christ without implying such presence in or with the elements themselves. You should learn more about it, and you may find more in agreement than with Rome.

We distinguish progressive sanctification with positional sanctification. Yes, salvation is a process, but justification, which begins this process, is not. I gave up discussing with Roman Catholics when I was banned from the One Bread section on this site a few years ago (and still am banned).

I don’t see why you were banned. Unlike other Protestants, you seem to be a true reformer and therefore not so different from Catholics as modern Protestants are.

 

[Jonaitis]

I don’t see why you were banned. Unlike other Protestants, you seem to be a true reformer and therefore not so different from Catholics as modern Protestants are.

Let's just say I was more aggressive theologically then than I am now. I regret many of the things I said, too.

 

[Daniel Peres]

The "Catholic Church" is not confined to any institution, but the collective body of believers around the world.

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that all validly baptized persons are in the Catholic Church, although not in full communion in the case of Protestants.

 

[dms1972]

I know of no difference. She is the Queen Mother, the Theotokos (God bearer), the woman that willingly accepted the role that was asked of her by God, she was immaculately conceived, she was bodily assumed into Heaven. I know of no Catholics who would disagree with any of that. Do you? If they do disagree then they would be heretics. Nobody thinks she is divine.

I am not a Roman Catholic, I have a Protestant background. I somewhat agree with what you say, but not entirely. I think there may be misunderstandings and maybe I have some, but I have tried occasionally to figure out what these might be.

I want to ask though what devotions to Mary are. What is a devotion in this sense, what does it mean in Catholic practice, is it a prayer, how is it understood?

 

[Daniel Peres]

I am not a Roman Catholic, I have a Protestant background. I somewhat agree with what you say, but not entirely. I think there may be misunderstandings and maybe I have some, but I have tried occasionally to figure out what these might be.

I want to ask though what devotions to Mary are. What is a devotion in this sense, what does it mean in Catholic practice, is it a prayer, how is it understood? So to be clear I am asking specifically about what a devotion is.?

A devotion is simply an affection for Saint or some other aspect of Christianity. Some Catholics have a devotion to the passion of Christ, and they spend a lot of time meditating on it. When the devotion is to a saint it has, I believe, two aspects. The first, the devotion means you try to imitate the great Christian in living out your Christian life. The second is that the particular saint is the person you like to turn to to pray on your behalf, since the prayers of a righteousness man availeth much. However, you still continue to pray directly as well.

That’s pretty much it.