something i've wondered about repeatedly - forgiveness

[blossom15]

So far as I am aware its only mentioned once, in the Lord's prayer - and from memory its this verse which I've been wondering about:-

Forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me.....

and, which is written after the Lords prayer

But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your transgressions.


Basically I'd forgiven people - at least said to God over and over I forgive certain people who hurt me very much (leaving serious consequences which I am still dealing with and potentially more to face up to) and I prayed for them.

But I'm not conscious of this being written anywhere else except in the context of the Lord's prayer so can it be considered a doctrine as such, and does it apply just to believers? Or are you really expected to forgive someone who has shown no remorse and who would just do the same thing again and perhaps is.

Of course I try to remove myself from the situation of being with such people, although there is one circumstance I am dealing with where that's not possible at the moment.

 

[46AND2]

Wouldn't be the first time god damned those who didn't quite understand his message...

but hey, all you gotta do is believe, and you're good, right?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

From my experience its always been easier to tell others they should forgive, than to actually forgive others myself.
If you've had a traumatic experience, you are not expected to forgive straight away. It takes ages and if possible get lots of professional help, that is, counselling.
But this is an issue I am going to deal with as a matter of urgency. Because I want God to forgive me my sins. What better motivation to forgive others than that!

 

[46AND2]

From my experience its always been easier to tell others they should forgive, than to actually forgive others myself.
If you've had a traumatic experience, you are not expected to forgive straight away. It takes ages and if possible get lots of professional help, that is, counselling.
But this is an issue I am going to deal with as a matter of urgency. Because I want God to forgive me my sins. What better motivation to forgive others than that!

I understand that I am the exception rather than the norm here, and sympathize (but can't empathize) with your sentiments. Forgiveness, for me, is trivially simple. I've actually TRIED to hold a grudge, and couldn't. And I know that some people have had different experiences (but no, I'm not without baggage), with different people than I, and perhaps I'm just fortunate.

But this is what makes it difficult to believe that God has unconditional love, as most Christians claim.

He does hold grudges; even has a track record of it in the OT. Yet teaches that, essentially, grudges are immoral.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Forgiveness, for me, is trivially simple. I've actually TRIED to hold a grudge, and couldn't

So you think its the same for people who have been abused physically and psychologically? No grudges eh? Just forgive and forget straight away?

 

[46AND2]

So you think its the same for people who have been abused physically and psychologically? No grudges eh? Just forgive and forget straight away?

Ugh. Sorry, mate, I tried to explain/imply that there are people who have had it far worse than I, and that what I have experienced does not compare to them (and I can therefore not EMPATHIZE).

I was merely relating my difficulty with accepting that god "unconditionally" loves.

 

[46AND2]

So you think its the same for people who have been abused physically and psychologically? No grudges eh? Just forgive and forget straight away?

I'd also like to point out that I pretty clearly stated(in different words) that I didn't think "its the same for people..."

And that I recognize my circumstance as unusual.

 

[blossom15]

Ooops, I should have posted under Christian advice - please would it be possible for a mod to move my thread??

 

[46AND2]

Ooops, I should have posted under Christian advice - please would it be possible for a mod to move my thread??

Why?

 

[paul1149]

Hi @blossom15
Viewing Mt 6:14-15 using a Bible with cross-references, I came up with these to consider:
Mark 11:25; Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 3:13; Matthew 18:35; Luke 6:37; Luke 17:3; Matthew 18:22; James 2:13. You should be able to hover over them to see the text, or you can view them in context at www.biblegateway.com.

I think it's pretty clear that we are enjoined to forgive. As you imply in your last paragraph, though, forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. Reconciliation is based on repentance and the rebuilding of trust. Absent those things, there is no obligation to reconcile.

In the case of no repentance, forgiveness is still enjoined, and even if the offender is not benefited (though perhaps he could be one day), the one forgiving is, unilaterally. Once we forgive we are set free to move on.

I find that dividing this out takes time and continued effort. Titus 2 tells us to "say No to ungodliness". When certain offenses keep playing in my mind, I reaffirm that they were wrong, and that I will not take any further part in them, and will have minimum to do with the unrepentant offender. But at the same time, I wish the offender no ill - no pain, no punishment - I only want repentance and life for them. In that way, I know I've forgiven.

If you struggle with that, I would try not to be hard on yourself, but to keep trying for clarity on the matter. In due time, as you continue to follow the Lord, it will come. I think this is something we all grow in. But Christ wants us as free as possible, and the best time to start is right now (Gal 5.1).

 

[blossom15]

Why?

I felt that things were getting into a debate, and didn't want that and realised that I ought to have posted under Christian Advice if I just wanted to explore what believers had to say. I did note that your belief is Atheism - not that I want to go into it much, but I tried that approach and found that life without God didn't work for me.

 

[blossom15]

Hi @blossom15
Viewing Mt 6:14-15 using a Bible with cross-references, I came up with these to consider:
Mark 11:25; Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 3:13; Matthew 18:35; Luke 6:37; Luke 17:3; Matthew 18:22; James 2:13. You should be able to hover over them to see the text, or you can view them in context at www.biblegateway.com.

I think it's pretty clear that we are enjoined to forgive. As you imply in your last paragraph, though, forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. Reconciliation is based on repentance and the rebuilding of trust. Absent those things, there is no obligation to reconcile.

In the case of no repentance, forgiveness is still enjoined, and even if the offender is not benefited (though perhaps he could be one day), the one forgiving is, unilaterally. Once we forgive we are set free to move on.

I find that dividing this out takes time and continued effort. Titus 2 tells us to "say No to ungodliness". When certain offenses keep playing in my mind, I reaffirm that they were wrong, and that I will not take any further part in them, and will have minimum to do with the unrepentant offender. But at the same time, I wish the offender no ill - no pain, no punishment - I only want repentance and life for them. In that way, I know I've forgiven.

If you struggle with that, I would try not to be hard on yourself, but to keep trying for clarity on the matter. In due time, as you continue to follow the Lord, it will come. I think this is something we all grow in. But Christ wants us as free as possible, and the best time to start is right now (Gal 5.1).

Thanks very much Paul for going to so much trouble with posting links for your reply. I'm going to reread what you've written.

When I thought about some of the people today, I thought that they were causing so much harm that I wanted them to experience some of the consequences of what they were doing to other people, for themselves (!) (yeah! I know .... not the most loving thing I've thought) - but I started to feel so angry and thought maybe then they would realise what they've done and be sorry/repent.

That is what I've been wrestling with, because I've been facing health issues for a very long time as a consequence of some past events.

 

[paul1149]

I went through the same process. It took me time to learn what forgiveness is, at the same time without denying that wrong had indeed been done, and then to practice it. But as with anything, we get better at it with practice. That's why I like the Titus 2 verse, which literally in the Greek says to "say no" to ungodliness, as on a continuing basis in real time, as might be necessary. Also I would pay close attention to the larger context in Matthew 18.

I would encourage you to trust the Lord in all this. It is a huge help in forgiveness to consider that "the judge of the whole earth will do what is right", as Abraham implied long ago. If people will not repent, they are going to have to face the consequences of their sins without the mercy of God, and that is something too horrible to contemplate deeply. Knowing that justice will ultimately be served, no matter what it looks like here and now, is a huge support for forgiving.

I also would encourage you to trust the Lord for healing. Healings are still happening, because "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever". Letting go of the negative feelings can be a major release toward receiving our healings.

Bless you, and may the Lord comfort and give clarity.

Bless the LORD, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name!
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits,
who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,
who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,
who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. -Ps 103:1-5​

 

[blossom15]

Thank you Paul, your post has been encouraging. I was just reading the link for Titus 2 and noted the reference be not 'slanderers' and have been thinking that a lot of what has happened I think has been through ignorance which has affected my present.

Realising that, I do also find it easier to forgive even though some frustration built up recently. (I can't help think of some things that I've done too. )

 

[Kevin.worthy]

So far as I am aware its only mentioned once, in the Lord's prayer - and from memory its this verse which I've been wondering about:-

Forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me.....

and, which is written after the Lords prayer

But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your transgressions.


Basically I'd forgiven people - at least said to God over and over I forgive certain people who hurt me very much (leaving serious consequences which I am still dealing with and potentially more to face up to) and I prayed for them.

But I'm not conscious of this being written anywhere else except in the context of the Lord's prayer so can it be considered a doctrine as such, and does it apply just to believers? Or are you really expected to forgive someone who has shown no remorse and who would just do the same thing again and perhaps is.

Of course I try to remove myself from the situation of being with such people, although there is one circumstance I am dealing with where that's not possible at the moment.

Forgiveness can sometimes be very difficult. There have been some people in my life that it has taken me years to forgive. I have found that letting go of all bitterness and ill-will towards them has been very liberating, however.

Also, here is a passage from Matthew 18 that you may find instructive:

23 . . . [T]he kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

 

[Kevin.worthy]

Sorry for the double post. There was a computer glitch that confused me.

 

[blossom15]

Thanks for posting Kevin.worthy. However, in a way reading that parable has made me think of the precariousness of salvation again - which is going on to a different topic. On the one hand there is the belief in eternal security with verses saying you can't be snatched out of your Father's hand, but on the other hand there is that parable and other verses, such as ones in Revelation which exhorts people to overcome otherwise their name would be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Perhaps if it was possible to hear Jesus voice saying to me that I am his, as I'm aware a few people may say they have experienced, then I wouldn't be so concerned. You're also not meant to worry, but instead examine yourself and pray - but why then does God not speak in a clear voice personally in reply to my prayers? Why do I have to try and muddle through the bible - which is meant to be simple that a child can understand it - but when I think I've understand it, I can find numerous people who have a different interpretation. Feeling rather frustrated today.

 

[Kevin.worthy]

The study of the gospel can sometimes be frustrating, but I have also found that God reveals truth to those that seek it with real intent. The devil is working in the world, even among Christians, and there is a great deal of disagreement among Christians on any number of subjects. This does not mean, however, that God is not compassionate and loving.

One axiom that I hold dear is that there must be an opposition in all things. Otherwise, nothing could exist as we know it. In other words, if God tried to immediately do away with all evil and unpleasantness, the result would be to destroy everything. Thus, we see confusion and heartache and frustration and evil in the world even though God is good and God loves us. Even in the midst of all of this, however, we can feel the power of the Holy Ghost blessing us as we seek to do what is right.

With respect to being certain of your salvation, salvation is a word that different people use in lots of different ways, and so it is hard to speak accurately about it in general terms. Nevertheless, I would say that we can know by the power of the Holy Ghost that we are believers in Christ, and that if we seek to know the truth with real intent and seek the inspiration of the Holy Ghost in our quest for truth, we will be guided--line upon line and precept upon precept--until we have arrived at the judgment seat of Christ and heard his voice tell us that we have done well, and that we have been good and faithful servants. We should not expect that final judgment to come, however, until after we have passed from this life, and so in this life we need to exercise faith and hope and be patient as we work to grow in the knowledge of the glory and the righteousness of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So far as I am aware its only mentioned once, in the Lord's prayer - and from memory its this verse which I've been wondering about:-

Forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me.....

and, which is written after the Lords prayer

But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your transgressions.


Basically I'd forgiven people - at least said to God over and over I forgive certain people who hurt me very much (leaving serious consequences which I am still dealing with and potentially more to face up to) and I prayed for them.

But I'm not conscious of this being written anywhere else except in the context of the Lord's prayer so can it be considered a doctrine as such, and does it apply just to believers? Or are you really expected to forgive someone who has shown no remorse and who would just do the same thing again and perhaps is.

Of course I try to remove myself from the situation of being with such people, although there is one circumstance I am dealing with where that's not possible at the moment.

Think of it this way: When you confess your sins and yet you are holding a grudge against your neighbor, are you truly being contrite? Recall Jesus' statement in Matthew 5,

"So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23-24)

The hyperbolic language doesn't mean that God's mercy is conditional on your ability; but rather it is to provoke you to take seriously your relationship with your neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran