Something I don't understand

[Lotar]

I'm not going to debate the Trinity, I'm sick enough of arguing it with the Mormons. I think it may be possible for a person to not understand the doctrine and be saved. No sect that denies it is a true Church, plain and simple.

By Anabaptist I am refering to all those denominations that follow in that tradition; ie Baptists, non-denominationals, ect. There are still original Anabaptists left, like the Mennonites.

 

[JVAC]

Didn't the anabaptist die out along time ago?



Are you saying that one has to understand and accept the theology of the Trinity to be saved? Is Salvation limited by our mental compacities?


What about the Christian Jews in the Messianic forum? Many of them don't beleive the Trinity, they find it hard to grasp, because God is One. And, some even beleive that Jesus is God, but don't believe in The Trinity? Nevertheless, they beleive as they are supposed to believe, and have faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[1] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[2] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[3]

No where does it say that one must believe the doctrine about the Trinity, it says that one must believe in thier heart that Jesus is raised from the dead, and confess Jesus to be Lord.

Can anyone here say they understand every thing about the salvation process? Or are you like me and understand it with your teeny tiny minds? So, I say to all of you, we are not saved by the theology we know and believe, but whether we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, see John 3.16.

First yes, the anabaptists are still alive, (I thought we covered this question a while ago ).

Secondly, the Athanasian Creed doesn't permit the heresy to be acknowledged as catholic and therefore it cannot be part of the Holy Christian Faith. To say there is one God is ancient: Deut. 6:4 "Shma Yisrael, YHWH elohenu YHWH echad". To reject the divinity of Jesus the Christ of God, is rejecting God the Glory of saving his people. Still yet when Isaiah prophesied he prophesied that the anointed would be called "Mighty God". Jesus, that Christ is "Mighty God". Stating that the Holy Spirit is not God, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Yet, we come back to Deut. 6:4 "HEAR ISRAEL!!! The Lord God, the Lord is one!!!"

Christians have at least three creeds (Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian). These creeds profess christian truths that cannot be denied. If they are then they cannot be christian, they are outside the catholic faith of the Church.

This is all I will say on the matter because we grow quite off topic.

 

[theseed]

I'm not going to debate the Trinity, I'm sick enough of arguing it with the Mormons. I think it may be possible for a person to not understand the doctrine and be saved. No sect that denies it is a true Church, plain and simple.

I agree with the concept of the Trinity, but I don't look at doctrine and decide which congregation is part of the body of Christ and which is not, I believe that the body of Christ are the body of believers, and not necessarily the members of a church. Many believe in the trinity, but they are not the body of Christ, because the don't know Jesus.

 

[theseed]

First yes, the anabaptists are still alive, (I thought we covered this question a while ago ).

Secondly, the Athanasian Creed doesn't permit the heresy to be acknowledged as catholic and therefore it cannot be part of the Holy Christian Faith. To say there is one God is ancient: Deut. 6:4 "Shma Yisrael, YHWH elohenu YHWH echad". To reject the divinity of Jesus the Christ of God, is rejecting God the Glory of saving his people. Still yet when Isaiah prophesied he prophesied that the anointed would be called "Mighty God". Jesus, that Christ is "Mighty God". Stating that the Holy Spirit is not God, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Yet, we come back to Deut. 6:4 "HEAR ISRAEL!!! The Lord God, the Lord is one!!!"

Christians have at least three creeds (Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian). These creeds profess christian truths that cannot be denied. If they are then they cannot be christian, they are outside the catholic faith of the Church.

This is all I will say on the matter because we grow quite off topic.

Yes, I had this same debate with them, but they all know hebrew, and it says mighty God ,but not almighty God, which in Hebrew is Elohim, and means Judge. Hence, "ye are gods" is to say we are judges.

 

[Lotar]

You cannot deny the nature of God and at the same time claim to worship Him. If you what to continue this subject, then start another thread.

 

[theseed]

You cannot deny the nature of God and at the same time claim to worship Him. If you what to continue this subject, then start another thread.

Yes you can, you can worship God the Father. Are you saying that all those Messianic Jews in the Messianic Jew forum are not saved? Even though many of them don't believe in the trinity?

Here is a link to a thread that was started along time ago. If you and others read it, you will find they you are not as smart as you think.

http://www.christianforums.com/t61227

 

[Lotar]

In another thread, which I didn't post in because the OP specifically asked for Protestants only (kind of ironic, since the thread was about people being alienating and exclusive, but I digress) several posters expressed dislike at the Catholics and Orthodox because each church believes and teaches that theirs is the truest and most right branch of Christianity. I could understand if either church taught that only members of their denomination go to Heaven (which neither does) but the posters in the other thread seem to have a problem with us claiming to be the most right or closest to Jesus' original intent.

So, I have a question: Do you not believe the same thing about your church? If not, why do you go there? If you believe your church isn't closest to the truth, in which case another church most be, why don't you go to the more true church?

There are several Protestants on this board who strongly believe theirs is the most correct church, and I understand them and applaud them for that. While I may disagree with some of their theology, I respect their zeal and commitment to their particular faith. In fact, I don't understand how anyone could feel differently. So, those of you who don't believe your church is the best/truest/most Biblical/etc, can you please help me understand why you belong to that church?

I don't mean to start any wars, and I won't debate in this forum, I'd just like to hear opinions on this. Thanks!

Just to bring back the original subject.

 

[theseed]

You cannot deny the nature of God and at the same time claim to worship Him. If you what to continue this subject, then start another thread.

Can you honestly say you fully understand God's nature? Are not his thoughts and his ways higher than yours? I can't fully understand his nature, and this is one reason I do worship him.

Related to the OP, I think many of us will be surprised when we see some of those "anabaptist" in heaven. Just has we are limited and fallible, so too are churches, but thanks be to God that our salvation does not depend on us fully understanding God.

 

[ufonium2]

Just to bring back the original subject.

Thanks for trying!!!

 

[racer]

In another thread, which I didn't post in because the OP specifically asked for Protestants only (kind of ironic, since the thread was about people being alienating and exclusive, but I digress) several posters expressed dislike at the Catholics and Orthodox because each church believes and teaches that theirs is the truest and most right branch of Christianity.

Please forgive me, but I think you have understated to what people actually object. If Catholics or Orthodox actually said as you stated above: . . . Catholics and Orthodox because each church believes and teaches that theirs is the truest and most right branch of Christianity, then how could anyone rightly object to that? They couldn't. What really bothers people about the Catholic and Orthodox faith is that they firmly believe and claim that theirs is THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH ESTABLISHED BY CHRIST.

It bothers me that Catholics think they are being gracious and generous by allowing us in on the outter fringes of the clique by deeming us "their separated brethren." I find that to be a tad condescending and excluding. Now, maybe that's not out-and-out exclusivism, but it's pretty dern close.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Catholic friends on the MB and deeply respect their zest and fervor. I'm just trying to clear up a little misconception.

So, I have a question: Do you not believe the same thing about your church? If not, why do you go there? If you believe your church isn't closest to the truth, in which case another church most be, why don't you go to the more true church?

I believe that everyone's answers to that is "yes." Do we believe that our churches are THE CHURCH? No. Do we believe that our churches are infallibly governed? No. Do we believe that our churches possess the complete, fulness of truth? No. But, clearly we belong to the church we belong to because we find it closer to the truth of the Gospel.

I don't mean to start any wars, and I won't debate in this forum, I'd just like to hear opinions on this. Thanks!

No problem. You can only find answers if you ask questions.

God Bless!!

Lisa

 

[Reformationist]

In another thread, which I didn't post in because the OP specifically asked for Protestants only (kind of ironic, since the thread was about people being alienating and exclusive, but I digress) several posters expressed dislike at the Catholics and Orthodox because each church believes and teaches that theirs is the truest and most right branch of Christianity. I could understand if either church taught that only members of their denomination go to Heaven (which neither does) but the posters in the other thread seem to have a problem with us claiming to be the most right or closest to Jesus' original intent.

So, I have a question: Do you not believe the same thing about your church? If not, why do you go there? If you believe your church isn't closest to the truth, in which case another church most be, why don't you go to the more true church?

There are several Protestants on this board who strongly believe theirs is the most correct church, and I understand them and applaud them for that. While I may disagree with some of their theology, I respect their zeal and commitment to their particular faith. In fact, I don't understand how anyone could feel differently. So, those of you who don't believe your church is the best/truest/most Biblical/etc, can you please help me understand why you belong to that church?

I don't mean to start any wars, and I won't debate in this forum, I'd just like to hear opinions on this. Thanks!

LOL! This is a great question and I hope I wasn't one of those that gave you the opinion that I didn't think my church taught the most accurate doctrines of God. I doubt I am considering I don't know which thread you're talking about.

Anyway, great question. I recently mentioned to a Catholic poster that I would be disappointed if, as a professing Catholic, he didn't claim that his church was the most accurate and closest to what the Lord had intended. Even though I disagree with him I would wonder why he was a Catholic if he didn't believe they were the closest to the Truth.

God bless

 

[citygirl]

So, I have a question: Do you not believe the same thing about your church? If not, why do you go there? If you believe your church isn't closest to the truth, in which case another church most be, why don't you go to the more true church?

Great question. I attend a Presbyterian church, and no, I do not believe that they are the closest to the truth (primarily because I am not reformed (note - do not wish to discuss this in this thread). What I do believe is that NO church has it 100% right. I believe that we, as humans, can in no way comprehend the mind of God. I believe each (or many) churches have a glimpse of God, but to claim that our church doctrine is perfect and others is not, is kind of arrogant. (I am assuming they believe the core beliefs of the christian church, ie Jesus came to earth, died and rose again for our sins).

So, to answer you question, why do I go to my church? I picked it becasue of the good teaching, the amazing community/fellowship and the emphasis they have put into helping out the poor.

 

[racer]

NOTE: If Ree was still here, Citygirl would be one of "A. believers Gang."

 

[racer]

NOTE: If Ree was still here, Citygirl would be one of "A. believers Gang."

Citygirl, that's a kinda/sorta private, but not private joke. I'll tell you about that later, too.

 

[Adoniram]

I would have to consider myself to be non-denominational, although I attend a Baptist church. I go there because: 1) the pastor is a vibrant speaker who preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ, no sugar-coating, not afraid to preach that Jesus Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by him." 2) the church membership is on fire for Jesus and growing, out-grown two buildings in two years, 3) the church has a great youth program in which my daughter is active, 4) it has a good music ministry.

Two things that bug me about it are: 1) having to use a standard Baptist Sunday School book, which is an OK book as far as Bible study books go but hampers the ability of the SS teacher to structure SS class to fit our immediate needs or questions, and 2) the politics and procedure of the Baptist denomination. I guess I can abide with that though.

All in all, a great church.

 

[Beastt]

Perhaps the church is faced with the dilemma that man, no matter how much he might wish otherwise, is a political beast, (if you'll excuse the expression), and politics have a way of over-riding the individual in favor of the majority.

 

[puriteen18]

Yes, I think that my denomination, Particular (Reformed)Baptist, is the closest to the truth. I believe we uphold in our doctrine the orthodox Biblical Apostlistic faith more than any other group.

However, there is no church that is without error. I would not be surprixed if we didn't understand something correctly; no human can fully comprhend the Divine. And, of course, I believe that we all fall in practice.

Doctrine is good and it is of utmost importance, but what weight does it carry if it is not practiced?

I should not what I am by what I believe, but how I live.

I am a Christian, so I should to live in a way that squares with the Bible. I believe that the Baptist Puritans had the closest understanding of Biblical doctrines since the days of the Apostles, so I also study their example.

But we always have to be careful not to put the traditions of men above the Word of God. If so, we become as the Pharisees.

I do not think that my church is the only group going to heaven. I believe that the Invisible (what we mean by 'catholic') Church is from every tribe, nation, kinsmen, and tongue. So long as Christ died for them, they are part of the Church.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

I believe my church is best for me, but I would not presume to judge others.