Something I can never understand - can anyone help?

[lucaspa]

Atheists have something missing, just in the same way tone deaf people have .They keep looking at the crotchets and quavers on the page and find them 'logically' interesting only .One must 'hear the music first if you are to be a musician or a composer ,not the other way round .You are blocked in your logical mind and you refuse to 'hear' and read
the word of God in the NT. All truly creative people have believed in God ,but you do not seek the truth, as you would have to admit you are limited and would have to change ,expand your self .

Are you saying that the only way you know God is what you read in the NT? If so, I am so sorry for you. If that is true, then the only difference between you and atheists is that you believer the writers of the NT wrote truth, while atheists do not. That is not "something missing", but a matter of trust.

Isn't belief in God based on personal experience of God? Maybe not for you. So sad.

However, you may be correct that atheists are missing something. It could be that they are missing a "God detecting module" in their brain. When God communicates with us, He must do so through our material brain. Perhaps humans evolved a module in the brain capable of hearing God. In terms of natural selection, such a module would have selection advantages. Also, in terms of evolution, perhaps that module has not achieved full penetrance into the population: that means that not every individual has inherited one. Therefore atheists cannot have personal experience of God.

I take exception to the statement "All truly creative people have believed in God". There have been some very creative people who are atheists. Science is a creative endeavor, and there have been some very creative atheist scientists. Also atheist artists, authors, sculptors, inventors, political scientists, etc. Of course, perhaps you set up a True Scotsman fallacy when you said "truly creative". Maybe the circular reasoning is that if you don't believe in God you are not truly creative. Is that what you are doing?

 

[lucaspa]

I was simply repeating what believers have told me. You can't ask that question. God just is. He is self existent and sui generous. This is blatant special pleading.

It's not special pleading. It's a well known claim in philosophy: if you trace the chain of cause and effect back you will eventually get to First Cause. First Cause is an uncaused cause that starts the chain of cause and effect. First Cause simply exists. What Christians are saying is that God is First Cause.

How do you avoid the infinite turtles game? I think the OP's observation is accurate. If a God can "just exist" eternally without a cause why can't existence, as a whole, i.e. the sum total of everything that exists, not "just exist" without a cause. After all we know that existence exists. We know that matter and energy change form but do not come into or go out of existence. What logic leads some to start with nothing and then seek a cause for existence.

All the data that point to our universe having a beginning in time. All the data that say our universe did not always exist.

True Scotsman, what you are doing is repeating Aristotle's proposition. Aristotle proposed, in opposition to creation by deity, that the universe always existed. That proposal is no longer valid, because we know the universe has not always existed. So, "the question "what caused the universe?"" is not just a religious question, but also a scientific one.

how do you avoid a stolen concept fallacy? How do you avoid the problem of the fallacy of pure self-reference that the concept of "God" commits by positing a consciousness which references only its own object-less referencing? And lastly, how do you reconcile the blatant and irreconcilable contradiction between the primacy of consciousness, which the god concept affirms, and the primacy of existence which we observe in all cases in reality? The orientation of the relationship between the subject of consciousness and the objects of consciousness can not go one direction for some consciousnesses and the reverse for others. That would be a fundamental contradiction.

These are not loaded questions. They are perfectly valid.

They are a lot of big words that, as far as I can tell, mean nothing. Can you break them down to more common English? Thank you.

 

[True Scotsman]

Atheists have something missing, just in the same way tone deaf people have .They keep looking at the crotchets and quavers on the page and find them 'logically' interesting only .One must 'hear the music first if you are to be a musician or a composer ,not the other way round .You are blocked in your logical mind and you refuse to 'hear' and read
the word of God in the NT. All truly creative people have believed in God ,but you do not seek the truth, as you would have to admit you are limited and would have to change ,expand your self .

I'm always happy when someone attacks me personally in lieu of an argument. It only points out that they are intellectually bankrupt. I'll ask you the same questions that Resha ignored. In asking the question "what caused the universe?" how do you avoid a stolen concept fallacy? How do you avoid the problem of the fallacy of pure self-reference that the concept of "God" commits by positing a consciousness which references only its own object-less referencing? And lastly, how do you reconcile the blatant and irreconcilable contradiction between the primacy of consciousness, which the god concept affirms, and the primacy of existence which we observe in all cases in reality? The orientation of the relationship between the subject of consciousness and the objects of consciousness can not go one direction for some consciousnesses and the reverse for others. That would be a fundamental contradiction.

 

[BabylonWeary]

They are a lot of big words that, as far as I can tell, mean nothing. Can you break them down to more common English? Thank you.

Looks like some cognitive dissonance regarding the real value of a college education and the inflated price of tuition.

 

[rtfguy]

First of all, God IS God, and concerning who He is, His character, or anything that He does is not dependent upon our beliefs... or disbelief's! Do you honestly expect to understand the God who created all matter from nothing? Do you really expect to understand the God who always was and is and always will be, long after you or I are gone from this earth? But to answer your question, you are extremely illogical trying to equate God with the matter that He created.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

There is something called the subconscious, in which human beings hide certain information from themselves in order to live a comfortable life free from certain facts which trouble them.

Firstly, that's not the claim being made. The claim being made is that the existence of Yahweh is 'obvious' to everyone, not that it is held at a subconscious level.

Secondly, even if that were the case, you are now predicating the claim on information that neither of us has access too, which makes it even more of a vacuous naked assertion.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

"nothing" in the context of Big Bang means "no matter, no energy, no spacetime". IOW, everything that makes up the physical universe we inhabit did not exist "prior" to the Big Bang.

We don't know whether pure nothingness was ever a real state of affairs. Some of the proposals you go on to list are not "nothing."

 

[Moral Orel]

All the data that say our universe did not always exist.

You've said this throughout your many posts, but it isn't accurate. The universe didn't always exist in its current form. There is nothing that says that matter had to come into existence from nothing except creationism. True, at the beginning there was only energy and not matter, but you acknowledged that they are just two different forms of the same thing. There is nothing that says that energy had to come into existence at the start of the big bang, only that the big bang caused it to spread out instead of being confined to an infinitesimally small point, or that it permeated our dimension from another one.

Now we can quibble over what caused the big bang, but we would be quibbling over what caused our universe to spread out and expand, not where the "stuff" came from to begin with because it is very possible that the "stuff" always existed in a different form than the one we see today.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

True Scotsman, what you are doing is repeating Aristotle's proposition. Aristotle proposed, in opposition to creation by deity, that the universe always existed. That proposal is no longer valid, because we know the universe has not always existed.

If the beginning of the universe is also the beginning of time, then in one sense, the universe has always existed; there was no time in which the universe did not exist; it has existed for all time.

 

[Moral Orel]

Yes. The hard hearted have their role to play as "dishonorable vessels". They are unwitting participants in a scenario much greater than their comprehension, simply put here to "try" the honorable believers in their stedfast faith.

(Rom 9:22) What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:


(Rom 9:23) and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

At the risk of derailing the thread, I have to ask now, do people who have had their hearts hardened by God get a free pass to Heaven, or did God choose for those people to go to Hell for all of eternity because he took away their free will to find him? I know this is just going to be an opinion thing, but I am curious what your views on free will and responsibility are.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

?? You want to run that illogic by us again, please?
Why is the claim predicated on information only you have access to?

Because only I know what my thoughts are. This is not one of those things that's up for debate. It's a fact.

If I claim to know you are thinking of the number five when you are actually thinking of six, you are in the exclusive position to know, with 100% certainty, that I am wrong.

It's the exact same principle when applied to the assertion 'the existence of Yahweh is obvious to everyone'. All I need to be certain that this assertion is false, is to be aware of at least one person for whom it is not true. That person is me.

You need to consider that the evidence of Yahweh's existence is there for you, but that you reject the evidence!

No, I don't need to consider vacuous naked assertions. I reject them out of hand, in fact. Immediately and unceremoniously.

After all, isn't that what we face with climate change deniers and creationists? The evidence of climate change and evolution are obvious to all people, but some people reject the evidence.

No, it's not remotely the same. Science utilizes an immense body of replicable, testable, predictable, critically robust and convergent evidence from multiple fields of study, all predicated on workable means and methods.

Religion, meanwhile, doesn't even have an epistemology, let alone a single demonstrable shred of information derived from it.

That is an entirely separate claim. Now we are talking about attributes of the Bible, not the existence of Yahweh.

No, in this case, the two are inseparable. The whole catalyst for making the assertion in the first place was based on Bible verses.

Your logic escapes me here, too. Are you saying that if the Bible isn't "perfect" then a "perfect" Yahweh cannot exist? You should easily be able to see the non-sequitor in that.

No, I do not see the non-sequitor in pointing out that perfect and imperfect are not the same thing.

 

[Winepress777]

At the risk of derailing the thread, I have to ask now, do people who have had their hearts hardened by God get a free pass to Heaven, or did God choose for those people to go to Hell for all of eternity because he took away their free will to find him? I know this is just going to be an opinion thing, but I am curious what your views on free will and responsibility are.

Those verses were covered earlier, which is what led to your question. But I'll repost them here for you, since they are God's answer to you;

(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


(Rom 9:16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(Rom 9:17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


(Rom 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


(Rom 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Moral Orel]

Those verses were covered earlier, which is what led to your question. But I'll repost them here for you, since they are God's answer to you;

(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


(Rom 9:16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(Rom 9:17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


(Rom 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


(Rom 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I know a lot of people think that Bible verses are clear cut and free from inference, but I don't think that's the case. So since you didn't actually post your own words to explain what these verses mean to you, I'll infer, and you can tell me if I'm right. No sarcasm here, just my honest best guess.

God chooses who is good and who is bad before they exist. God chooses who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell before they exist. It is not our choices that determine where we go, because God made those choices for us. So it is only God that controls our path and we do not have an effect on where we end up, and how we live our lives. And then we receive mercy or wrath in response to the life that God designed for us, not in response to our own choices, because we don't make them.

And although this means there isn't any real justice, because people are being rewarded for being controlled to be good, and people are being punished for being controlled to be bad, we do not question God because we are mere clay pots in comparison to him, and we have no place to question his judgement.

Again, no sarcasm, not my beliefs, but the best guess at inferring what I think you believe based on your response. Is this accurate?

 

[paulm50]

Christians, well in fact Muslims and Jews and for all I know many other religions "explain" the existence of the universe, the solar system, humanity etc by the fact it was created by a God (maybe the same god, maybe not?), and some justify this by saying that the chances of intelligent life are near impossible without a creator.

What I can't understand is where did this God come from? If the chances of intelligent life evolving over billions of years are very remote, then what are the chances of a being existing who is capable of making the heavens and everything in them just by willing it to happen. Where did he/ she/ it come from, who made God?

in my atheist, logical mind, the existence of this all powerful, all pervading being seems much more unlikely than natural forces evolving in tiny steps over billions of years, resulting in where we are now. What do Christians think about the origins of God, and if the answer is that God "just exists", why can't the universe "just exist"?

Read what the original Genesis says about the Universe, compare it ro a modern bible. It will explain a lot about how men can write what they choose.

What created the Big Bang, a work in progress and when we find that out, the devout will say what created the big bang was created by god.

 

[fat wee robin]

Are you saying that the only way you know God is what you read in the NT? If so, I am so sorry for you. If that is true, then the only difference between you and atheists is that you believer the writers of the NT wrote truth, while atheists do not. That is not "something missing", but a matter of trust.

Isn't belief in God based on personal experience of God? Maybe not for you. So sad.

However, you may be correct that atheists are missing something. It could be that they are missing a "God detecting module" in their brain. When God communicates with us, He must do so through our material brain. Perhaps humans evolved a module in the brain capable of hearing God. In terms of natural selection, such a module would have selection advantages. Also, in terms of evolution, perhaps that module has not achieved full penetrance into the population: that means that not every individual has inherited one. Therefore atheists cannot have personal experience of God.

I take exception to the statement "All truly creative people have believed in God". There have been some very creative people who are atheists. Science is a creative endeavor, and there have been some very creative atheist scientists. Also atheist artists, authors, sculptors, inventors, political scientists, etc. Of course, perhaps you set up a True Scotsman fallacy when you said "truly creative". Maybe the circular reasoning is that if you don't believe in God you are not truly creative. Is that what you are doing?

If you can tell me of a breakthrough scientist, whose work has stood the test of time ,
who was not at least a 'deist',than I will rethink .I do not consider Richard Dawkins as breakthrough ,but in a line of succession .
There is creativity and Creativity . There are many people who were faulty people ,very ,but they were not atheists ,if their work has long term universal truth .
I have absolutely no idea how you got the impression that "the only reason I believe in God ,is from the N.T., because the exact opposite would be
true , having studied far beyond that . I have a very personal relationship with my God ,I am very happy to say .

 

[SkyWriting]

What I can't understand is where did this God come from?

God is Love.
Love Creates.
Here we are.

You are attempting to define God based on the results.
God came first, then the results.

 

[Dig4truth]

The Bible is clear about how it all began; "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth".

"In the beginning" TIME
"God created" ENERGY
"The heavens" SPACE
"And the earth" MATTER

A recipe for everything.
Since everything that has a beginning must have a cause an eternal being is necessary to create the universe.
God has no beginning and therefore needs no cause. He is the uncaused cause of the universe. The universe, however, does need a cause since it had a beginning.

 

[fat wee robin]

Are you saying that the only way you know God is what you read in the NT? If so, I am so sorry for you. If that is true, then the only difference between you and atheists is that you believer the writers of the NT wrote truth, while atheists do not. That is not "something missing", but a matter of trust.

Isn't belief in God based on personal experience of God? Maybe not for you. So sad.

However, you may be correct that atheists are missing something. It could be that they are missing a "God detecting module" in their brain. When God communicates with us, He must do so through our material brain. Perhaps humans evolved a module in the brain capable of hearing God. In terms of natural selection, such a module would have selection advantages. Also, in terms of evolution, perhaps that module has not achieved full penetrance into the population: that means that not every individual has inherited one. Therefore atheists cannot have personal experience of God.

I take exception to the statement "All truly creative people have believed in God". There have been some very creative people who are atheists. Science is a creative endeavor, and there have been some very creative atheist scientists. Also atheist artists, authors, sculptors, inventors, political scientists, etc. Of course, perhaps you set up a True Scotsman fallacy when you said "truly creative". Maybe the circular reasoning is that if you don't believe in God you are not truly creative. Is that what you are doing?

Yes sculptors ,but for me they are artisans ,and always have very earth based sensate
level of developement which I consider not very highly as it is the most elementary mode of expression for all human beings .All reasonably average children can mold ,paint what they see in some form ,all of it is 'art' . When it gets to the highest level ,can you name anyone who was a lifetime atheist ?

 

[OzSpen]

What I can't understand is where did this God come from? If the chances of intelligent life evolving over billions of years are very remote, then what are the chances of a being existing who is capable of making the heavens and everything in them just by willing it to happen. Where did he/ she/ it come from, who made God?

in my atheist, logical mind, the existence of this all powerful, all pervading being seems much more unlikely than natural forces evolving in tiny steps over billions of years, resulting in where we are now. What do Christians think about the origins of God, and if the answer is that God "just exists", why can't the universe "just exist"?

Dave,

You are asking, 'Who created God'? Nobody created God because he is not a created being. God has always existed. You are asking, 'Where did this God come from?' and you are asking the impossible question because only things that had a beginning need a creator/maker. Our universe needs a maker because it had a beginning. Since God did not have a beginning, God did not need to be created/made/come into being.

Since you affirm that you have a 'logical mind' (and so do I), can't you see that the question, 'Where did God come from?' is an oxymoron because you are trying to create the uncreatable (Is that an English word? I hope you understand what I mean).

I have a question for you: Was the universe created or has it been eternally in existence? Or, do you have some other explanation for the origin of the universe?

I look forward to your responses.

Oz

 

[bhayes]

Christians, well in fact Muslims and Jews and for all I know many other religions "explain" the existence of the universe, the solar system, humanity etc by the fact it was created by a God (maybe the same god, maybe not?), and some justify this by saying that the chances of intelligent life are near impossible without a creator.

What I can't understand is where did this God come from? If the chances of intelligent life evolving over billions of years are very remote, then what are the chances of a being existing who is capable of making the heavens and everything in them just by willing it to happen. Where did he/ she/ it come from, who made God?

in my atheist, logical mind, the existence of this all powerful, all pervading being seems much more unlikely than natural forces evolving in tiny steps over billions of years, resulting in where we are now. What do Christians think about the origins of God, and if the answer is that God "just exists", why can't the universe "just exist"?

That is always a big question that those who doubt the existence of God have and if you would like a really detailed answer I suggest you look at Dr. William Lane Craigs response which can be found here: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/god-time-and-eternity, where the response begins around the third paragraph.

At the risk of derailing the thread, I have to ask now, do people who have had their hearts hardened by God get a free pass to Heaven, or did God choose for those people to go to Hell for all of eternity because he took away their free will to find him? I know this is just going to be an opinion thing, but I am curious what your views on free will and responsibility are.

Some Christians do believe what you just said and this is known as Calvinism. However some don't. What the important thing is and what all Christians have in common is that we believe in the teachings and testimony of Jesus Christ who is the Son of God and came into this world to die for sinners so that we can be reconciled to God in eternity. I think this is more important and something that every Christian who calls themselves Christian can profess regardless of what they believe in freewill or other things. Remember: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOMESOEVER believeth in him shall have everlasting life".(John 3:16) The key word is whomsoever.

And again: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9) God wants us all to come to repentance and to trust in him and know him. However some of us have hardened our hearts in unbelief and these would be the vessels afore prepared unto destruction. So to respond to your post yes I think we have free will be because Jesus is saying "whosoever cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out". However some of us are hard hearted in unbelief.

Just as a side note I also think its amazing when sometimes I look at the wicked people and wonder why are they prosperous such as the corrupt politicians and wall street banksters and what not but in the bible it says, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished".(2 Peter 2:9) So their prosperity is the judgement of God so that in their comfort and wicked living they will be preserved unto the day of the wrath of God! That is amazing to me, so these could also be the vessels afore prepared unto destruction! Also it is important to note that sometimes we Christians cannot agree on 100% everything theologically (simply because humans are of a sinful nature) but there are core tenants and that is the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ, who he is, and what he teaches.