Something I can never understand - can anyone help?

[Catherineanne]

All I need to disprove the assertion you're advocating here is to be aware of at least one person for whom the existence of Yahweh is not 'obvious'. As it happens, I am aware of at least one such person - me.

Quite right. It was a silly assertion.

By predicating the assertion on information accessible only to me, this verse provides me with 100% certainty that the Bible is false, and consequently, that your 'god' Yahweh doesn't exist. Thanks for sharing.

And this is an equally silly conclusion. : )

 

[Catherineanne]

I have no problem with you being fully insulted with the Word of God. It is none of my concern. I just gave you His Word of Truth. No amount of clever spinning will change a thing. We either have a heart made to know God and His Creation, or our heart is hard, and we remain ignorant of it. Read it as you will.

You are responsible for what you post. Kindly remain civil and stop talking about anyone having a hard heart; that is a totally unChristian concept; the Holy Spirit can touch any heart he chooses with his Grace. If God chooses to move in someone's life then he will.

Meanwhile you are talking to people who have come to a Christian forum to ask questions and you effectively berate them for not being Christians already. You have no authority whatever to do this, so kindly desist.

 

[Catherineanne]

incorrect analogy.
computers lack the ability to automatically link together like atoms can.

this is the only answer when it comes to a god.
something totally outside the grasp of our puny imagination.

another incorrect analogy, this moves god into the physical universe, and so far no such thing has been detected.
if god does exist, then it must exist outside normal space-time, and it must possess some kind of creation ability.
there are a few interesting scenarios:
god is some type of transdimensional entity, or there might be some type of time-life conservation like there is with matter-energy.

A God who is incapable of moving within creation without being seen would not be much of a God. : )

 

[LynnC]

another incorrect analogy, this moves god into the physical universe, and so far no such thing has been detected.
if god does exist, then it must exist outside normal space-time, and it must possess some kind of creation ability.
there are a few interesting scenarios:
god is some type of transdimensional entity, or there might be some type of time-life conservation like there is with matter-energy.

Greetings whois,
Correct. The Creator exists in another dimension... one that we as humans, do not perceive. Humans can only perceive in 3 dimensions. That 'creation ability' you speak of... why not light and sound? These are certainly things that can come from outside our own dimension, but still with the ability to enter into our dimension.

 

[LynnC]

You are responsible for what you post. Kindly remain civil and stop talking about anyone having a hard heart; that is a totally unChristian concept; the Holy Spirit can touch any heart he chooses with his Grace. If God chooses to move in someone's life then he will.

Meanwhile you are talking to people who have come to a Christian forum to ask questions and you effectively berate them for not being Christians already. You have no authority whatever to do this, so kindly desist.

Greetings Catherine,
How is having a hard heart an unChristian concept?
The Pharaoh had a hard heart when Moses went to him.
People who turn from God do have hardened hearts. It's not an unChristian concept at all. It is through Christ that we try to reach these hardened hearts and turn them back to God.
Peace to you.

 

[Catherineanne]

Greetings Catherine,
How is having a hard heart an unChristian concept?
The Pharaoh had a hard heart when Moses went to him.
People who turn from God do have hardened hearts. It's not an unChristian concept at all. It is through Christ that we try to reach these hardened hearts and turn them back to God.
Peace to you.

There is no heart the Holy Spirit cannot touch.

People asking questions on this forum should never be berated for not being Christians already; that will only have the effect of turning them away, and they may never return. It is thoroughly unChristian to use such accusations because they imply that some people cannot be saved. This is not what our faith teaches us; there is no-one who cannot be saved, but they are saved by Grace, not by being berated into belief.

 

[LynnC]

Kindly remember that Christians on this site are the hosts, and anyone who is not a Christian is our guest, and behave accordingly. Thank you.

Greetings Catherine,
I'm sorry but this statement bothers me... it is one I encounter far too frequently on islamic forums... who censor any statement that challenges what they have been taught.
Would you take away a person's free speech? the ability to express and discuss their own opinion? As long as they are not being rude, crude, or vulgar, I say allow them to speak. It is about discussion and understanding of one another.
Peace and blessings to you.

 

[LynnC]

they imply that some people cannot be saved.

Hi Catherine,
I don't think it implies that at all.... only that they have not yet been reached.
There are a great many walking around in the world with hard hearts... but they can be reached, and saved. If we did not believe that then we would have no need for Yshwe Messiah.
Peace.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Quite right. It was a silly assertion.
And this is an equally silly conclusion.

Your Bible asserts that the existence of Yahweh is obvious to all people. Since the assertion itself is predicated on information only I have access to - my own thoughts - I am in a position to know whether it is true or false. As it happens, it is false.

As such, the Bible cannot be the 'perfect word of god', and the 'perfect' god-being Yahweh, as he is described in the Bible, cannot exist.

So...

Since you agree with me that the assertion 'the existence of Yahweh is obvious to all' is silly, do you reject the authority of those verses that say so?

 

[BabylonWeary]

Now this may seem absurd to think about, but try to imagine explaining atoms to someone a few hundred years ago. Who could have fathomed that we are mostly empty space?

<-------------------------------- Avatar. Think about it. String theory. Word.

I do appreciate your effort to remind people the world is not flat and time is not linear.

 

[TaylorDonBarrett]

Your Bible asserts that the existence of Yahweh is obvious to all people. Since the assertion itself is predicated on information only I have access to - my own thoughts - I am in a position to know whether it is true or false. As it happens, it is false.

As such, the Bible cannot be the 'perfect word of god', and the 'perfect' god-being Yahweh, as he is described in the Bible, cannot exist.

So...

Since you agree with me that the assertion 'the existence of Yahweh is obvious to all' is silly, do you reject the authority of those verses that say so?

There is something called the subconscious, in which human beings hide certain information from themselves in order to live a comfortable life free from certain facts which trouble them.

 

[lucaspa]

Christians, well in fact Muslims and Jews and for all I know many other religions "explain" the existence of the universe, the solar system, humanity etc by the fact it was created by a God (maybe the same god, maybe not?), and some justify this by saying that the chances of intelligent life are near impossible without a creator.

What I can't understand is where did this God come from? If the chances of intelligent life evolving over billions of years are very remote, then what are the chances of a being existing who is capable of making the heavens and everything in them just by willing it to happen. Where did he/ she/ it come from, who made God?

in my atheist, logical mind, the existence of this all powerful, all pervading being seems much more unlikely than natural forces evolving in tiny steps over billions of years, resulting in where we are now. What do Christians think about the origins of God, and if the answer is that God "just exists", why can't the universe "just exist"?

You are misusing the question. Look at this from the pov of science. Whenever we answer 1 question, 3 or 4 new ones pop up out of the answer. But you can't use ignorance of the answer to the new question to invalidate the answer to the question. For instance, when Marshall Urist first discovered that demineralized bone matrix caused bone formation when implanted in a muscle, an immediate question was: what type of cell was turning into a bone cell? At the time adult stem cells were unknown, but we could not use the absence of knowledge about the respondent cell to say that DBM was not causing bone formation.

So the question is: what is the ultimate origin of the physical universe? Possible answer: it was created by a deity. Next question: what is the origin of deity? We don't know the answer to that one. However, not knowing an answer to the "next" question doesn't invalidate the answer "deity created".

Your post also posits a particular argument about creation by theists: that deity was needed to directly manufacture life: "If the chances of intelligent life evolving over billions of years are very remote,". Let's for a minute accept that the processes within the universe are insufficient to produce intelligent life. We are talking about intelligent beings based upon matter combining by physics and chemistry. However, is deity material? No. Deity is proposed as not being composed of matter. So what is improbable for chemistry and matter may not be improbable for whatever deity is composed of. You have made an apples and oranges mistake.

The universe we see around us can't "just exist". We know it had a beginning at the Big Bang. Logically, something had to cause the Big Bang. So the atheist argument that "the universe just exists and has existed forever" doesn't work. Instead, the alternative is a cause other than deity. Alternatives have been proposed. So my answer to you is that "Yes the universe could have been caused by something else. I believe it was caused by Yahweh. You are free to believe it was caused by something else."

 

[Winepress777]

What is even less excusable is to assume that what is obvious to us is obvious to everyone.

It isn't. Not even close.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Winepress777]

I am afraid you are out of step with Christian thinking on this one.

We believe by Grace, not by deciding to soften our own hearts. If someone else does not yet believe then it is not for us to berate that person, to accuse them of having a hard heart or any other unpleasantness. It is for the Holy Spirit to work in his own way and in his own time, and in the meantime it is for us to answer questions politely and with respect.

Kindly remember that Christians on this site are the hosts, and anyone who is not a Christian is our guest, and behave accordingly. Thank you.

(Psa 95:8) Harden not your heart...

 

[lucaspa]

Absent a definition of "nothing," I don't think we can be certain of this. We don't know what came before the Big Bang, if "before" even makes sense.

"nothing" in the context of Big Bang means "no matter, no energy, no spacetime". IOW, everything that makes up the physical universe we inhabit did not exist "prior" to the Big Bang.

Did "something" exist? Not that anyone is certain of. Smolin has postulated another universe that collapsed to start the Big Bang. Of course, this simply pushes the question off a bit. Turok proposes a 5 dimensional 'brane that just exists. Within that 5D 'brane float 1 or more 4D 'branes that are physical universes (3 dimensions of space and 1 of time). Our particular universe resulted from a collision between 2 other 4D branes. This proposal works within the mathematics of String Theory, but there are no observations to support it, or eliminate other proposals. Of course, String Theory has its own problems in regard to being contradicted by observations. So Turok's proposal could be wrong.

Another proposal is that the universe is "nothing". The net energy of the universe = 0. Under this proposal the universe is like an imaginary particle: it has a temporary existence. The problem with this proposal is to get spacetime to be a quantum event. BTW, "imaginary" here does not mean "made up" or "unreal". The term is very specific in quantum mechanics to refer to particles that "borrow" energy from spacetime in order to have a temporary existence. While they exist, imaginary particles are very real, exerting very real effects. However, the energy is paid back within about 10^-22 seconds.

 

[lucaspa]

Your Bible asserts that the existence of Yahweh is obvious to all people. Since the assertion itself is predicated on information only I have access to - my own thoughts - I am in a position to know whether it is true or false. As it happens, it is false.

?? You want to run that illogic by us again, please?
Why is the claim predicated on information only you have access to? Since the claim is that Yahweh's existence is evidence to others -- such as me -- then it is evidence I have access to.

You need to consider that the evidence of Yahweh's existence is there for you, but that you reject the evidence! After all, isn't that what we face with climate change deniers and creationists? The evidence of climate change and evolution are obvious to all people, but some people reject the evidence.

Let's face it, you may be like Scrooge when he rejected the evidence of his own eyes and ears of Marley's ghost. Didn't Scrooge dismiss the evidence as "a bit of beef I had for supper"? Isn't it possible you are doing the same thing?

As such, the Bible cannot be the 'perfect word of god',

That is an entirely separate claim. Now we are talking about attributes of the Bible, not the existence of Yahweh.

and the 'perfect' god-being Yahweh, as he is described in the Bible, cannot exist.

Your logic escapes me here, too. Are you saying that if the Bible isn't "perfect" then a "perfect" Yahweh cannot exist? You should easily be able to see the non-sequitor in that.

Since you agree with me that the assertion 'the existence of Yahweh is obvious to all' is silly, do you reject the authority of those verses that say so?[/QUOTE]

 

[fat wee robin]

You're not supposed to ask that. He just is and needs no explanation. You've got to realize that when you start asking questions like who created the universe, you're no longer dealing with logic so it's perfectly OK to say that something existed before anything existed as long as this thing is a form of consciousness.

Atheists have something missing, just in the same way tone deaf people have .They keep looking at the crotchets and quavers on the page and find them 'logically' interesting only .One must 'hear the music first if you are to be a musician or a composer ,not the other way round .You are blocked in your logical mind and you refuse to 'hear' and read
the word of God in the NT. All truly creative people have believed in God ,but you do not seek the truth, as you would have to admit you are limited and would have to change ,expand your self .

 

[fat wee robin]

Greetings Catherine,
How is having a hard heart an unChristian concept?
The Pharaoh had a hard heart when Moses went to him.
People who turn from God do have hardened hearts. It's not an unChristian concept at all. It is through Christ that we try to reach these hardened hearts and turn them back to God.
Peace to you.

I agree that when someone has a hard heart ,they will not hear the the Spirit of God .

 

[lucaspa]

Science and faith say the same thing, funnily enough.

If you ask a scientist about before the Big Bang they will tell you something to the effect that the question has no meaning; time began at the Big Bang, and everything we can see or measure or evaluate dates from that point.

If you push the question and say, but what came the day before; where did all that matter which exploded just suddenly appear from, there can be no answer. Nothing measurable, nothing that can be seen or inferred. Just nothing.

Actually, that is not an accurate description of Big Bang or what "scientists" will tell you. There was no matter at the Big Bang. Remember, matter and energy are 2 different forms of the same thing: E = mc^2. At Big Bang, there was only energy; the universe was too hot for matter to exist.

Now, several physicists have made stabs at answering where you say "there can be no answer". And yes, quantum fluctuation is an inference from what we know about quantum mechanics and the fact that the net energy of the universe = 0.

So either you have an incomprehensible Nothing, or you have an incomprehensible Someone.

False dichotomy. The alternatives to deity as cause for Big Bang are neither "Nothing" nor "incomprehensible".

The difference, to me, is that choosing Nothing does not add anything to the sum of knowledge; no meaning, no pattern, no shape. Choosing Someone, on the other hand, provides all of these. And given that mankind is rather predisposed to finding patterns, it makes sense that we are also predisposed to find a Creator, and a meaning.

This seems, to me, to be terrible. You are not advocating any sort of truth, but instead choosing because you get "meaning"? But if deity does not actually exist, you get false meaning. You have given up all notion that "a Creator" is actually true, but instead advocating because we are "predisposed to finding patterns"? Even if those patterns don't actually exist? We should believe in God because evolution has predisposed us to see patterns?

Whatever happened to "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Catharineanne, you are advocating pure expediency and throwing truth under the bus.

 

[fat wee robin]

There is no heart the Holy Spirit cannot touch.

People asking questions on this forum should never be berated for not being Christians already; that will only have the effect of turning them away, and they may never return. It is thoroughly unChristian to use such accusations because they imply that some people cannot be saved. This is not what our faith teaches us; there is no-one who cannot be saved, but they are saved by Grace, not by being berated into belief.

I think you are doing some berating .Some people don't agree with you ,and that is alright .