Something I can never understand - can anyone help?

[OzSpen]

This is laughable. What other subjects can we apply this to? You won't believe in extraterrestrial aliens until you die. You won't believe in Bigfoot until you take your final breath. You will receive knowledge of the Loch Ness Monster as you cross to the other side...

Seriously? How hard would it have been for a bible writer to simply jot that down?

No, it's deadly serious! And you give me this 'appeal to ridicule' logical fallacy. If you don't deal with the material I present and give me another of your logical fallacies, I won't be interested in replying as we can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Please quit your use of fallacies and let's get on with some normal conversation.

Oz

 

[Davian]

No, it's deadly serious!

And you give me this 'appeal to ridicule' logical fallacy.

You do need to read that link. Pointing out that your post was ridiculous and without merit is not ridicule when your post actually lacks merit. As a non-beleiver, I give your bible no authority; appealing to it is a fallacy on your part.

If you don't deal with the material I present and give me another of your logical fallacies,

What other fallacies are you referring to? Have you confused me with someone else?

I won't be interested in replying as we can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Or you do that.

Please quit your use of fallacies and let's get on with some normal conversation.

I will avoid fallacies, and you avoid referencing your bible as if it has any authority.

 

[Dave RP]

Forget 'intelligent life', if God does not exist then how does one explain the existence of absolutely anything else?! According to the Bible, the only reason that absolutely anything at all exists is because it was brought into existence from nothing by the Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator (Gen.1-2; Acts.17:16-34; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11). This is the only explanation which makes metaphysical sense and is also metaphysically non-contradictory.

Your incorrect assumption is that absolutely everything that exists must have had a point of origin. Whilst that is absolutely true for all created things it is NOT true of the Creator Himself (Jn.4:24). YHWH has declared Himself to be both Eternal (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13) and Immutable (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17). This means that He has ALWAYS existed and that there is absolutely no point where He does not exist or has ever changed. God [YHWH] and God [YHWH] alone is absolute reality upon which all other reality is contingent.

Simonline.

That was exactly my point, why and how does God have no point of origin, how can that be, how can a "thing" like God just exist, yet the universe can't "just exist". Just because I can't personally explain why the universe exists, doesn't mean I need a God to explain it, and to me it's a cop out to say that the great all powerful god of the Koran, Bible, Torah etc etc etc just existed and always did - where did he/ she/ it come from? Why shoud god escape the requirement for an explanation of his existence?

 

[OzSpen]

I will avoid fallacies, and you avoid referencing your bible as if it has any authority.

You haven't admitted to me which logical fallacies you have committed. I will NOT quit quoting from the Bible any more than I'll quit quoting from the mass media, church fathers, Plato and Aristotle if necessary.

 

[OzSpen]

That was exactly my point, why and how does God have no point of origin, how can that be, how can a "thing" like God just exist, yet the universe can't "just exist". Just because I can't personally explain why the universe exists, doesn't mean I need a God to explain it, and to me it's a cop out to say that the great all powerful god of the Koran, Bible, Torah etc etc etc just existed and always did - where did he/ she/ it come from? Why shoud god escape the requirement for an explanation of his existence?

Dave,

So do you believe the universe is eternal?

You asked: 'why and how does God have no point of origin'. Only created things/beings had a point of origin where they were created.

 

[Dave RP]

Dave,

So do you believe the universe is eternal?

You asked: 'why and how does God have no point of origin'. Only created things/beings had a point of origin where they were created.

I have no idea if the universe is eternal, I cannot envisage how it would not be eternal, but maybe there is some force of nature we don't understand which will end the universe?
As for God, if he/ she/ it exists, how and why was my original question, but of course that's unanswerable.

 

[OzSpen]

I have no idea if the universe is eternal, I cannot envisage how it would not be eternal, but maybe there is some force of nature we don't understand which will end the universe?
As for God, if he/ she/ it exists, how and why was my original question, but of course that's unanswerable.

Only created things had a beginning. God is not a created being, so he had no beginning.

Do you know of any evidence that indicates that the universe had a beginning? Is it running down? Is it experiencing entropy? OR, what evidence is there that the universe is eternal?

 

[Dave RP]

Only created things had a beginning. God is not a created being, so he had no beginning.

Do you know of any evidence that indicates that the universe had a beginning? Is it running down? Is it experiencing entropy? OR, what evidence is there that the universe is eternal?

Personally i don't have the qualifications to answer questions about the origins of the universe or its longevity, and a programme I saw the other night on the BBC showed a group of theoretical physicists arguing about whether the big bang theory is really justifiable and whether there was a "before" after all, it was interesting and incomprehensible in equal measure. What it did show was that there is a growing body of opinion that the universe is part of some cyclical process in which universes come and go, expand and contract, and therefore need not have a beginning or an end. In that instance the universe may not have had a "beginning" although OUR observable universe may have as part of this cycle.

Does that make the universe like the God you quote, in that it no longer needs a beginning and therefore no longer needs a creator? I can understand some of the theoretical arguments for a never ending, never begun universe, I still can't get along with a conscious creator who "made" all this stuff, but it wouldn't surprise me that there is some natural force in nature which is so far beyond out comprehension that we label it "God", I then cannot see the judgement, heaven,. hell which is endemic in most religions.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Only created things had a beginning. God is not a created being, so he had no beginning.

How do you know that?

Do you know of any evidence that indicates that the universe had a beginning? Is it running down? Is it experiencing entropy? OR, what evidence is there that the universe is eternal?

Define "beginning." What we currently know from modern cosmology is that the universe began to expand from a very high density state 13.8 billion years ago. What happened before then is currently unknown. In fact, we don't even know if it makes sense to posit a "before" then.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Personally i don't have the qualifications to answer questions about the origins of the universe or its longevity, and a programme I saw the other night on the BBC showed a group of theoretical physicists arguing about whether the big bang theory is really justifiable and whether there was a "before" after all, it was interesting and incomprehensible in equal measure. What it did show was that there is a growing body of opinion that the universe is part of some cyclical process in which universes come and go, expand and contract, and therefore need not have a beginning or an end. In that instance the universe may not have had a "beginning" although OUR observable universe may have as part of this cycle.

Does that make the universe like the God you quote, in that it no longer needs a beginning and therefore no longer needs a creator? I can understand some of the theoretical arguments for a never ending, never begun universe, I still can't get along with a conscious creator who "made" all this stuff, but it wouldn't surprise me that there is some natural force in nature which is so far beyond out comprehension that we label it "God", I then cannot see the judgement, heaven,. hell which is endemic in most religions.

There's a lot that we don't know about the conditions necessary for universes to be brought into being. It's one of the greatest mysteries of all. Yet some people seem to be under the very strong impression that they have solved it, all without even touching an astrophysics textbook. Their shallow and lazily crafted answers apparently obviate the need to think carefully through the problem and make better sense of it. By pretending that the answer is already known they discourage the inquiry needed to produce an answer that genuinely satisfies the question. I think Nietzsche said it best: "mystical explanations are thought to be deep; the truth is that they are not even shallow."

 

[Davian]

You haven't admitted to me which logical fallacies you have committed.

I do not see where I have committed any.

I will NOT quit quoting from the Bible any more than I'll quit quoting from the mass media, church fathers, Plato and Aristotle if necessary.

And I will quote from the Hayne's manual for a 1983 Toyota pickup, but only where appropriate.

 

[OzSpen]

Does that make the universe like the God you quote, in that it no longer needs a beginning and therefore no longer needs a creator? I can understand some of the theoretical arguments for a never ending, never begun universe, I still can't get along with a conscious creator who "made" all this stuff, but it wouldn't surprise me that there is some natural force in nature which is so far beyond out comprehension that we label it "God", I then cannot see the judgement, heaven,. hell which is endemic in most religions.

The God whom I worship and who has changed my life through Jesus Christ's salvation that I have received, has told us exactly what evidence there is for his existence:

'18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:18-20 ESV).​

These verses demonstrate:

• Why people suppress the truth for the evidence of God;
• The evidence for God's existence is PLAIN to all people as God has shown it to them.
  
• What has God shown to people? Evidence of his invisible attributes, eternal power, and divine nature.
• This evidence has been clearly perceived since the creation of the world.
• How? Through the things that God has made in the world.
• Where does that leave human beings when they face God? The will be 'without excuse'.

I pray that you will be more serious about your quest for God and salvation through Christ. So far in this discussion with me, you have not demonstrated an openness to this evidence.

Oz

 

[paulm50]

So do you believe the universe is eternal?

Derfine eternal?

Only created things had a beginning. God is not a created being, so he had no beginning.

Where does it say that in the bible?

Do you know of any evidence that indicates that the universe had a beginning? Is it running down? Is it experiencing entropy? OR, what evidence is there that the universe is eternal?

Yes the Universe started with the Big Bang, it's expanding all the time, stars are exploding, ours will eventually. We have no evidence it will die or is eternal.

The interesting thing is to read the original Genesis with a translation. It has very little to say about a universe. To argue primitive man didn't understand it. This was supposed to be god talking to them. He could of told them a watered down version of the truth, he lied to them or they lied to us.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bookstore/e-books/mtg.pdf will show you inaccurate it is. No mention of a universe, did they know what the Sun and Moon really were, or just lights in the sky. As for the order it's in, that's wrong.

Now read the KJV Do you see where the word Universe came from? That's how easy it is to change what people believe. The biggest fraud was a Pope who made Mary Magdalene a prostitute, when she was a favoured disciple. She could of even been Jesus's wife. It was an event when he kissed her on the lips. As a normal Jew he would of been married in his mid teens.

 

[OzSpen]

Derfine eternal?

Where does it say that in the bible?

Yes the Universe started with the Big Bang, it's expanding all the time, stars are exploding, ours will eventually. We have no evidence it will die or is eternal.

The interesting thing is to read the original Genesis with a translation. It has very little to say about a universe. To argue primitive man didn't understand it. This was supposed to be god talking to them. He could of told them a watered down version of the truth, he lied to them or they lied to us.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bookstore/e-books/mtg.pdf will show you inaccurate it is. No mention of a universe, did they know what the Sun and Moon really were, or just lights in the sky. As for the order it's in, that's wrong.

Now read the KJV Do you see where the word Universe came from? That's how easy it is to change what people believe. The biggest fraud was a Pope who made Mary Magdalene a prostitute, when she was a favoured disciple. She could of even been Jesus's wife. It was an event when he kissed her on the lips. As a normal Jew he would of been married in his mid teens.

Paul,

1. Eternal means everlasting, without beginning, without end. 'God has no beginning, end, or succession of moments in his own being, and he sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time' (Grudem 1994:168). Wayne Grudem provides an exposition of this statement in Grudem (1994:168-173). Sometimes this is called the teaching of God's infinity with respect to time. See Psalm 90:2 (ESV); Rev 1:8 (ESV).

2. Only created things had a beginning. Try Genesis 1:1 (ESV). Ever heard of common sense to tell you that only created things had a beginning?

3. There is evidence there will be New Heavens and a New Earth (2 Peter 3:13 ESV).

4. No problem if 'universe' is not used in the Bible as it is called the 'heavens and the earth'. So are you saying that you and science know more about the sun and moon than God does? You are an awfully skeptical witness.

5. Your last paragraph has been refuted over and over. Jesus was not married and he did not have a wife. I have written a brief article to refute this view: Was Jesus married?

See also the article, 'Was Mary Magdalene Wife of Jesus? Was Mary Magdalene a Prostitute?'

Oz

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1994. Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press/Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[Davian]

...
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
...

Invisible attributes that have been clearly perceived? Is that an attempt at biblical humour?

 

[OzSpen]

Invisible attributes that have been clearly perceived? Is that an attempt at biblical humour?

Can't you read the Scriptures around this verse that I provided: '19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:19-20 ESV).

The apostle Paul tells us what those 'invisible attributes' are: God's eternal power, divine nature that have been 'clearly perceived' since the creation of the world in the things in the heavens and the earth (the universe) that have been made.

What's preventing your seeing the magnificent work of God in the creation of the universe, the intricacies of the workings of each human being, etc. There is amazing power and design in God's work in creation.

But there is even more dynamic power that God would take a rebel human being like me and change my inner being from that of being a rebel to one who wants to share Jesus Christ with you - even with someone who is resistant to the good news of salvation.

Oz

 

[Davian]

Can't you read the Scriptures around this verse that I provided: '19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse' (Rom 1:19-20 ESV).

The apostle Paul tells us what those 'invisible attributes' are: God's eternal power, divine nature that have been 'clearly perceived' since the creation of the world in the things in the heavens and the earth (the universe) that have been made.

I can read it, but I do not see any more value in reading it than reviewing the quality of a product by reading the glossy brochure. Do you believe everything you read?

What's preventing your seeing the magnificent work of God in the creation of the universe, the intricacies of the workings of each human being, etc. There is amazing power and design in God's work in creation.

I am prevented by the failure of religionists to substantiate that gods of the biblical sort are anything more than characters in books.

But there is even more dynamic power that God would take a rebel human being like me and change my inner being from that of being a rebel to one who wants to share Jesus Christ with you - even with someone who is resistant to the good news of salvation.

What is this "good news"?

 

[OzSpen]

I can read it, but I do not see any more value in reading it than reviewing the quality of a product by reading the glossy brochure. Do you believe everything you read?

I am prevented by the failure of religionists to substantiate that gods of the biblical sort are anything more than characters in books.

What is this "good news"?

Davian,

Are you saying that you don't regard the Bible any more highly than reading a glossary brochure? This seems to be a statement about your lack of understanding of how to test the reliability of a historical document such as the Book of Romans.

Of course I don't believe everything I read. I test the evidence. And have a guess what? I've tested the evidence of Romans 1:19-20 (ESV) and found that they fit the evidence of the reality of creation - just as those verses stated.

What's preventing you from seeing this from Rom 1:19-20? Paul stated it clearly in Romans 1:18 (ESV): 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men [human beings], who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth'. The unrighteousness of human beings causes them to suppress the evidence of God's existence in creation.

What is this 'good news'? It is the very reason how your unrighteousness can be forgiven so that you no longer suppress the truth of God. Forgiveness of your sins is made possible by your believing on Jesus Christ for salvation from your sins. God provides this salvation through Christ alone when you have faith in Him.

Why don't you read Acts 16:25-34 that tells of the 'good news' to the Philippian jailer when he asked, 'What must I do to be saved?' (v. 30). Take a read of their response in v. 31.

If you want further details, I written a more lengthy overview in my article, The Content of the Gospel . . . and some discipleship

If you want to know more about the content of the Gospel and how to respond in faith to Jesus, please interact further with me here. I can testify that this Gospel changed this rebel sinner, Oz, from the inside out and I've never been the same since. It revolutionised my thinking and led to a radical change in my world and life view.

Oz

 

[Davian]

Davian,

Are you saying that you don't regard the Bible any more highly than reading a glossary brochure?

Pretty much. Subject to wildly different interpretations, I have observed.

This seems to be a statement about your lack of understanding of how to test the reliability of a historical document such as the Book of Romans.

That you believe that your bible meets some sort of historical document standard does not make it so for anyone else.

Of course I don't believe everything I read. I test the evidence. And have a guess what? I've tested the evidence of Romans 1:19-20 (ESV) and found that they fit the evidence of the reality of creation - just as those verses stated.

How would you falsify that?

What's preventing you from seeing this from Rom 1:19-20? Paul stated it clearly in Romans 1:18 (ESV): 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men [human beings], who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth'.

It seems too often that the word "truth" in these forums turns out to be "religious opinion".

The unrighteousness

Are you calling me unrighteous (wicked)? Is that intended to be hurtful? You don't even know me. Can you read minds?

of human beings causes them to suppress the evidence of God's existence in creation.

Little ol' me is suppressing the existence of an allegedly all-powerful and all-knowing deity? Has he fallen and he can't get up?

What is this 'good news'? It is the very reason how your unrighteousness can be forgiven so that you no longer suppress the truth of God. Forgiveness of your sins is made possible by your believing on Jesus Christ for salvation from your sins. God provides this salvation through Christ alone when you have faith in Him.

Why don't you read Acts 16:25-34 that tells of the 'good news' to the Philippian jailer when he asked, 'What must I do to be saved?' (v. 30). Take a read of their response in v. 31.

If you want further details, I written a more lengthy overview in my article, The Content of the Gospel . . . and some discipleship

If you want to know more about the content of the Gospel and how to respond in faith to Jesus, please interact further with me here. I can testify that this Gospel changed this rebel sinner, Oz, from the inside out and I've never been the same since. It revolutionised my thinking and led to a radical change in my world and life view.

Oz

Belief is not a conscious choice. I know for myself, I cannot simply decide to believe. That makes this hypothetical 'good news' of yours to be that the majority of individuals on this planet are to burn for eternity for something beyond their control. Sounds pretty grim to me. If it were reality.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz Of course I don't believe everything I read. I test the evidence. And have a guess what? I've tested the evidence of Romans 1:19-20 (ESV) and found that they fit the evidence of the reality of creation - just as those verses stated.
How would you falsify that?

Davian: How would you falsify that?

You omit: How would you verify that? I would falsify it by demonstrating that God's design is clearly NOT seen in the intricate details of the functioning of all living things (incl human beings) and the universe.

The evidence is already in, thanks to astronomy, medicine, biology, etc. The evidence verifies grand design and precise functioning of living things and the universe.

Oz