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You made reference to loving the living as opposed to the dead...I was just curious as to when we were ever dead in Christ?
let me change something and see what you think:
I'm all for reverence and memorialization. Name churches after them. Have them on the church calendar. It's the devotionals that often cross the line, and I don't at all accept the commonly-made arguments that "anything goes" in that department because we are to reverence them OR that "the communion of saints" means that spiritism or necromancy or the worship of them is covered. That is not what the term means. So, you asked, and that's my view.
Of course I know the difference...which is why I brought it up...
me·di·ate
/ˈmēdēˌāt/
Verb
We are able to intercede/mediate for other's here on earth (as the Church Triumphant) but those who have departed the mortal plane to dwell with the Lord in Heaven are even better equipped to do so...as they are without sin...
- Intervene in a dispute to bring about an agreement or reconciliation.
- Intervene in (a dispute) to bring about an agreement.
You said you cant....now why is that? Now what do you suppose prayer is...
We can all say 'we love God in Christ' or 'Mary' or whoever, but if we can't love our neighbors whom we see I might find the other claims semi-irrelevant.
s
I agree that if we don't show love to those in front of us, no patron saint will be of help to us. Any more than Abraham was of help to the Pharisees.
I think our 'Apostolic' brethren would agree, though I don't know the official teachings on that.
Do you, personally, feel that you hold those who show up and sit in the pews with the same reverence as those who have 'gotten off the floor'?
But we can't reach them and shouldn't try, even if they were capable of interceding on our behalf, and no one knows that they can do that.
Yes, He did say that. And we, from that same Bible know that Mary heard a word of God and kept it, and that Mary did the will of God.But here's what I would like to look at: When one dear woman shouted out to Jesus, Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed! His response was unexpected.
He said, Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
And another time, when Jesus' mother and brothers came looking for him, Jesus said, "Who are my mother and my brothers? And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother."
We do. Not everybody we meet, but many. Monks, dear ones in the church, those we respect...Now come to think of it, meeting in my parish actually involves lot of kissing.Now Jesus was not denigrating Mary here, but rather pointing out his Father (as always) and lifting up the saints to Him. Even to the status of his mother.
The trouble I have (currently) with the idea of (me, personally) praying the rosary or kissing icons in reverence, is not that this is 'worship' or 'idolatry'. The trouble is that I do not treat any of the physically living saints with this particular 'type' of reverence.
I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.
I would not serenade my mother with, "My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve." Even though I love and admire her unreservedly. (And even if I did, I think she wouldn't to able to hear the end of my devoted speech over the racket of her own laughter.)
Looks like it. Except, in my case at least, the hats are still in fashion. I feel like a dinosaur.This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.
Thoughts?
Paul was rather clear on this matter as previously noted. There are other scriptures that speak the same thing.
We can all say 'we love God in Christ' or 'Mary' or whoever, but if we can't love our neighbors whom we see I might find the other claims semi-irrelevant.
s
In a sense, yes.
To be really accurate about it, we are not revering the saint, but rather we are revering Christ in the saint.
Christ is more fully "realized" in those who have "gotten off the floor" than in those of us who are here, but it is the same Christ who is venerated.
I think we may be on to something here with the Holy Fist Bump.
But we can't reach them and shouldn't try, even if they were capable of interceding on our behalf, and no one knows that they can do that.
It's a petition. If you pray to a saint, it's a request for intercession. Some people think they can mediate as well as intercede, but only Christ is our mediator.
Well, the last time we discussed it the time spent to draw that out was whisked away in censorship, so discussing it factually is kind of a waste of time in this forum.
Hmmmmm...Scripture seems to disagree...
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev 6:9-11)
3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand (Rev 8:3-4)
Point out for us the part where these angels and spirits hear a petition from someone living in the flesh and act upon it.
Oh, that's right. It's not there.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Seems pretty clear to me that the Saints in Heaven are fully aware of the plight of men on earth...even more clear is that those in Heaven do in fact pray for us on earth....
Point out for us the part where these angels and spirits hear a petition from someone living in the flesh and act upon it.
I mean no offense, but you seem to be simply asserting this.
Mistakes don't get to be truth merely because they have been around a long time.It's easy enough to say "we can't reach them," and "no one knows that they can do that." But it was the practice of the Christians from as early as we have records, and even where it isn't 100% clear just and when and why they sought the intercession of the saints (initially, martyrs), we have no record of anyone ever opposing the practice.
The testimony of the historic church says we can reach them, and should. To borrow from St. Yoda, "for us, there is no try."
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