When I said that athletes don't get half of the attention that Mary get's I was saying from Catholics. I wasn't talking about people in general.
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Wait, wait, wait...
Athletes don't get half the attention we might give to a Saint or Mary? How fast can you sell out a stadium when the next playoff matchup is announced? How many millions do advertisers pay to get 30 seconds in a Super Bowl? Yet, when a well-thought-of speaker comes to a city to hold a conference on the Blessed Virgin Mary, they struggle to get half-full rooms.
Idolatry is out there, in every shape and form. Loving Jesus' mother is not idolatry.
Wait, wait, wait...
Athletes don't get half the attention we might give to a Saint or Mary? How fast can you sell out a stadium when the next playoff matchup is announced? How many millions do advertisers pay to get 30 seconds in a Super Bowl? Yet, when a well-thought-of speaker comes to a city to hold a conference on the Blessed Virgin Mary, they struggle to get half-full rooms.
Idolatry is out there, in every shape and form. Loving Jesus' mother is not idolatry.
But in truth, Mohammad had been taught about both Judaism and Christianity and patterned much of his new religion upon practices and beliefs derived from one or the other of them. As you know, he even comments on both of them in the Koran.
Fortunately I'm not doing any such thing. What I am doing is testing the spirit, as we're admonished to do in the scriptures.
You see here, the problem is that I do believe there is a misapplication of the word "worship" here. The actions are essentially the same. You bow before God. You bow before Mary. You bow before the saints (in general, not you personally). However to distinguish "worship" from "verneration/honor" your church has simply instituted a word.
I personally believe that the actions done are just as important as the thoughts associated with it. Let us consider the following text for example:
That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
Let's look at another verse:
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Now you say that latria is what you give to God, while hyperdulia is what is given to Mary, and dulia is what is given to the Saints. Now latria is defined as the adoration that is given to God alone. If we apply that definition to both of the scenarios in the texts here, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that the Jews who fell down before the golden image were ascribing to it the adoration that belongs to God alone. You might have a case with the demon possessed man, but even there, it would be hard to say that the demons were adoring Christ.
What we can see is that in both instances, worship required bowing.
Looking at more examples from the scripture,
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Now in each of these case I would think, again, that you'd be hard pressed to prove that Cornelius and John were offering latria to Peter and the angel. It would be most likely that they were offering what you call dulia. In either case, they were both told "Don't do that."
Point being that the intent isn't what I take exception with. The very act of bowing down seems to be tied to worship. Saying latria, dulia, or hyperdulia, doesn't matter if the action you take along with those is an inappropriate one.
I was more curious why LLoJ was specifically referring to Judaism was an apostate religion, whereas in the same paragraph he did not say the same about Islam.
The better case would have been made for Islam, I think, for clearly Islam sees itself as the fulfillment of Judaism and Christianity, while at the same time utterly rejecting the central Christian tenets of the resurrection and the Divine nature of Christ.
To say that neither religion is apostate from Christianity would seem to me to be more consistent though. The Christianity contained within Islam is more within the realm of the Christian heresies that Mohammed was exposed to in Arabia by the Nestorian and gnostics and their apocryphal works.
Fortunately I'm not doing any such thing. What I am doing is testing the spirit, as we're admonished to do in the scriptures.
You see here, the problem is that I do believe there is a misapplication of the word "worship" here. The actions are essentially the same. You bow before God. You bow before Mary. You bow before the saints (in general, not you personally). However to distinguish "worship" from "verneration/honor" your church has simply instituted a word.
I personally believe that the actions done are just as important as the thoughts associated with it. Let us consider the following text for example:
That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
Let's look at another verse:
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Now you say that latria is what you give to God, while hyperdulia is what is given to Mary, and dulia is what is given to the Saints. Now latria is defined as the adoration that is given to God alone. If we apply that definition to both of the scenarios in the texts here, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that the Jews who fell down before the golden image were ascribing to it the adoration that belongs to God alone. You might have a case with the demon possessed man, but even there, it would be hard to say that the demons were adoring Christ.
What we can see is that in both instances, worship required bowing.
Looking at more examples from the scripture,
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Now in each of these case I would think, again, that you'd be hard pressed to prove that Cornelius and John were offering latria to Peter and the angel. It would be most likely that they were offering what you call dulia. In either case, they were both told "Don't do that."
Point being that the intent isn't what I take exception with. The very act of bowing down seems to be tied to worship. Saying latria, dulia, or hyperdulia, doesn't matter if the action you take along with those is an inappropriate one.
Mohammed was familiar with the forms of Judaism and Christianity that reached Arabia at the time, yes. And there were Jewish tribes in Arabia.
That wouldn't make much difference, would it? I mean, he's still working off from what he knows of both of those religions. And it's clear that some portion at least of his new faith was copied from bona fide elements in Judaism or Christianity.But much of the Jewish, and especially Christian, teachings that reached Mohammed were apocryhal and legendary. We see that in his stories of the prophets and in his legendry story of the birth of Jesus.
So, yes, there was a lot of information about Christianity and Judaism that Mohammed picked up in his quest. He seems to have accepted the Jewish prophets, the virgin birth, miracles by Jesus, etc. But many of his accounts of these contain apocryphal and legendary material in them. To this day, I still get the Quran's versions of the stories of prophets confused with the Bible's.
People used to bow down to their superiors as part of their manners and culture.
The Scriptures state (in the translation you give) that they were offering worship, not respect/honor/veneration.
Only this is not said in Scripture; instead, we are instructed not to judge by appearances, but by the righteous judgement Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24Like I said, it could very well be that bowing down, in and of itself, is an act of worship. That's the point I was trying to make.
Scripture, Christ, makes the distinction, and the distinction is in the heart - not the appearance ...If I'm not mistaken, you can bow down before a statue of Mary or an icon of a Saint, but so long as it's "dulia" or "hyperdulia" it's ok. My point is that scripture makes no such distinction or exception.
Only this is not said in Scripture; instead, we are instructed not to judge by appearances, but by the righteous judgement Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24
It is the heart, the disposition, that determines what "is" not the appearance:
This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Matt. 15:8 (citing Isaiah)
Scripture, Christ, makes the distinction, and the distinction is in the heart - not the appearance ...
Likewise, one can worship an idol without bowing to it or even speaking of this (as in the previous example of sports, also money, and especially the idolatrous worship of one's self).
Like I said, it could very well be that bowing down, in and of itself, is an act of worship. That's the point I was trying to make.
If I'm not mistaken, you can bow down before a statue of Mary or an icon of a Saint, but so long as it's "dulia" or "hyperdulia" it's ok. My point is that scripture makes no such distinction or exception.
Yes, and depending on the culture, what "appears" evil will vary in this particular case. We live in a 'salad culture' (it does not look like the melting pot to me) - so we see a variety of cultural expressions.We are also told to avoid the very appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22).
And if your friend explains this is his sister, or some other reasonable explanation, would you doubt him and/or persist ?So apply the verse in context. No I cannot judge ones intentions, nor do I know their heart, but, for example, if I see a friend of mines that's married, walking down the street with a woman who isn't his wife, and he has his hands around her waste, I could very well advise him that he ought not do that. Even if there is nothing going on between them, and that's just a way that they've walked since they were kids, it still conveys the wrong message.
Yes, but this matter of the heart is rarely visible to others unless it is given by God for them to see. And it is rare, as to have this gift is "dangerous", can lead to pride; to bear this one must have a truly God-given deep humility.The appearance here was a correct appearance with a wrong attitude. So for example, If I profess to love God, and I show up to church, that will avail me nothing if my heart is far from him. And one's heart being far from God isn't gagued by the emotions. It doesn't matter what your feelings say to you, if you are doing something wrong, even with the best of intentions, it's still wrong, and if you refuse to correct said action, your heart is far from God.
Why would you say John is giving doulia when Scripture does not say this ?Very true. In in all those cases, your actions or appearance, will tell on you, but since the issue at hand is bowing, we ought to stay focused. Scripture never uses the words latria, or dulia. But if we wanted to compare, one could easily say that John, for example, was attempting to give dulia to the angel. That was quickly forbidden. That seems to indicate that the act of bowing down, even to show respect, ought not be done.
Yep, and if they're spirit filled you won't see that.We are also told to avoid the very appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22).
So apply the verse in context. No I cannot judge ones intentions, nor do I know their heart, but, for example, if I see a friend of mines that's married, walking down the street with a woman who isn't his wife, and he has his hands around her waste, I could very well advise him that he ought not do that. Even if there is nothing going on between them, and that's just a way that they've walked since they were kids, it still conveys the wrong message.
Good to know, thank you!But if we wanted to compare, one could easily say that John, for example, was attempting to give dulia to the angel. That was quickly forbidden. That seems to indicate that the act of bowing down, even to show respect, ought not be done.
Yep, and if they're spirit filled you won't see that.
We are also told to avoid the very appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22).
No. We are told to flee when evil appears.
If we were to avoid 'the very appearance of evil', then Jesus was not sinless at all. He got accused of 'appearing to do evil', like, every other day.
No. We are told to flee when evil appears.
If we were to avoid 'the very appearance of evil', then Jesus was not sinless at all. He got accused of 'appearing to do evil', like, every other day.
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