Something About Mary

Albion said:

That's more than just interceding.

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What is it then?

Defensor Christi said:

Which one's are too much then? Please provide examples of the one's that you feel cross some kind of line...and explain where/how they do so...

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Begin with the ones I listed the last time I answered that question. Post 378.

Root of Jesse said:

It's not an assumption. It's what's written in the passage. "Blessed are you among women" means she's the most blessed of women. Eve, being the first woman, was among those who Mary is more blessed then, and she was born sinless. Since Mary is most blessed, she was born that way, too. It follows logically.

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I disagree. "Blessed of all women" could rightfully be understood as "Blessed among all women that are alive" Mary needed not be compared to anyone dead, or not yet alive considering neither of those classes of women would be able to bear the Christ.

And there were plenty of women who were blessed besides Eve, and they were born in sin.

Also the Title "Full of Grace" given by Gabriel regarded past, present and future.

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You see that as a title. I see that as a statement. Perhaps had Jesus said "Mary, Full of Grace, here is your son..." I'd be able to give you that one.

I provided our proof of her sinlessness...Regarding her life, every bit of her life we see, she's obeying God. Regarding her childhood, we have evidence that, when she was old enough to leave home, she lived in the temple in Jerusalem. If she was two and told a lie, in our system, she wasn't culpable for sin. Besides which, the grammar used by the Angel Gabriel is that she was blessed in the past, in the present, and in the future. That's our proof.

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That's not proof sir. Those are theories at best. Even if Mary did live in the temple that's not proof of sinlessnes. And Mary being obedient isn't proof of sinlessness either. You say "in our system" but the fact of the matter is that sin isn't defined by your system or mine. Sin is sin. If you life, that's a sin. Now God may not hold one accountable or punish them due to their being so young, but it's still a sin. And even if the blessing was an all time blessing, it doesn't prove sinlessness.

Mary isn't able to give blessings, grace, or protection. We ask her intercession. It's God and Jesus that provide.

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I've read several prayers that say contrary.

Stryder06 said:

You see that as a title. I see that as a statement. Perhaps had Jesus said "Mary, Full of Grace, here is your son..." I'd be able to give you that one.

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Even if "full of grace" is accepted instead of other translations, it doesn't mean sinlessness, and if we were to go so far as to agree that it does...that still in no way proves that there was any "Immaculate Conception."

Why would it have to be a matter of her conception, in other words?

Albion said:

Imagining, then making into dogma, such as the--
Immaculate Conception

Assumption of Mary bodily into heaven

"Ever-Virgin"

"Dispenser of all graces"

"Co-redeemer" of the world with Jesus

etc.


That's questionable. The rosary is a devotion to Mary. It was allegedly given to mankind by Mary. She will dispense the graces or favors that come to those who pray the rosary. The only attention it affords Christ is that one is supposed to meditate on events in his life while saying the rosary.

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Albion said:

Begin with the ones I listed the last time I answered that question. Post 378.

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I assume you are speaking of the Rosary and not the dogmatic teachings of the Church...

Have you prayed a Rosary? Do you know that you are to meditate on the Mysteries while doing so? Do you know what the Mysteries are and to whom they point?

Albion said:

Even if "full of grace" is accepted instead of other translations, it doesn't mean sinlessness, and if we were to go so far as to agree that it does...that still in no way proves that there was any "Immaculate Conception."

Why would it have to be a matter of her conception, in other words?

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Full of Grace implies that there is no room for anything other than grace...i.e sin...

Her Immacualte Conception would go hand-in-hand if you believe that we are born with original sin...

Albion said:

You're talking about something else now. I was referring to the fact that the people who cross the line with their Marian devotions think that what they are doing is good and proper. I am saying that, despite those well-intended motives, the actions still can be improper. Therefore, we have to discuss the devotions themselves and not confuse that with the good intentions of the people doing them.


It's not a matter of "How much?" but of "What kind?"


I'm sure it is not. The issue, again, is strictly a matter of WHAT is done by them.

Let's discuss the devotionals, not the people doing them.

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Sure. Here's the gist of it:
A Beginner's Guide to the Rosary

Who Can Pray the Rosary
Anyone who knows six easy prayers can pray a Rosary; you will also need to know twenty Mysteries to meditate upon as you pray. You do not have to be a Catholic.

The Order of Prayers
The Rosary begins with the Apostles Creed, followed by one Our Father, three Hail Marys (traditionally offered for an increase in faith, hope, and charity for those praying the Rosary), a Glory Be, and, if desired, the Fatima Prayers. Next come five mysteries, each consisting of one Our Father, ten Hail Marys, a Glory Be, and, if desired, the Fatima Prayers. Conclude with the Hail Holy Queen. Please say a few extra prayers after the Hail Holy Queen for the Pope.

Rosary Beads
If you do not have Rosary beads, it is perfectly okay to count with your fingers. Counting beads frees your mind to help you meditate.

Prayers for Praying the Rosary
THE APOSTLE'S CREED
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified; died, and was buried. He descended into Hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

OUR FATHER
Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

HAIL MARY
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

GLORY BE
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

FATIMA PRAYER (OPTIONAL)
O my Jesus, forgive us of our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.

HAIL HOLY QUEEN
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Leader: Pray for us O Holy Mother of God,
All: That we may be worthy of the promises of Christ.
(Optional)
Leader: Let us pray.
All: O God whose only begotten Son by his life, death, and Resurrection has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life; grant we beseech thee, that meditating on these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

PRAYER FOR THE HOLY FATHER (FOR PRIVATE DEVOTION)
Leader: Upon this Rock He will build His Church...
All: ...and the jaws of death shall not prevail against her.

Leader: O Mother of the Redeemer...
All: ...Living Tabernacle of the Eucharist, and Luminous Rose of Heaven, with humble confidence we ask you to bestow upon the Holy Father all the graces and blessings reserved for him by the Holy Trinity from all eternity. Amen.

Leader: Help his friends...
All: ...convert his enemies.

Leader: Saint Joseph...
All: ...pray for us. Amen.
The Twenty Mysteries
Here is a brief listing and description of all twenty Mysteries.

THE JOYFUL MYSTERIES
The Annunciation: The Archangel Gabriel "announces" to Mary that she shall conceive the Son of God.
The Visitation: Mary visits her cousin Elizabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist.
The Nativity: Jesus is born.
The Presentation: Mary and Joseph "present" Jesus in the Temple where they meet Simeon.
The Finding in the Temple: After losing Him, Mary and Joseph find young Jesus teaching the Rabbis in the Temple.
THE LUMINOUS MYSTERIES (THE MYSTERIES OF LIGHT)
The Baptism in the Jordan: The voice of the Father declares Jesus the beloved Son.
The Wedding at Cana: Christ changes water into wine, his first public miracle.
The Proclamation of the Kingdom: Jesus calls to conversion (cf. Mk 1:15) and forgives the sins of all who draw near to him.
The Transfiguration: The glory of the Godhead shines forth from the face of Christ.
The Institution of the Eucharist: Jesus offers the first Mass at the Last Supper with his apostles, establishing the sacramental foundation for all Christian living.
THE SORROWFUL MYSTERIES
The Agony in the Garden: Jesus sweats water and blood while praying the night before his passion.
The Scourging at the Pillar: Pilate has Jesus whipped.
The Crowning with Thorns: Roman soldiers crown Jesus' head with thorns.
The Carrying of the Cross: Jesus meets His mother and falls three times on the way up Calvary.
The Crucifixion: Jesus is nailed to the cross and dies before His mother and His apostle John.
THE GLORIOUS MYSTERIES
The Resurrection: Jesus rises from the dead.
The Ascension: Jesus leaves the Apostles and bodily "ascends" to heaven.
The Descent of the Holy Spirit: The Apostles receive the Holy Spirit in tongues of fire in the upper room with Mary.
The Assumption: Mary is taken bodily--assumed--into heaven by God at the end of her life here on earth.
The Coronation: Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth.
Mysteries for Certain Weekdays
Traditionally, many people say the Joyful Mysteries on Monday, the Sorrowful Mysteries on Tuesday, the Glorious Mysteries on Wednesday, and start again with the Joyful Mysteries on Thursday, the Sorrowful Mysteries on Friday. The Glorious Mysteries are then prayed on Saturday and Sunday. Now that the Luminous Mysteries have recently been added, the schedule is:

Monday - Joyful
Tuesday - Sorrowful
Wednesday - Glorious
Thursday - Luminous
Friday - Sorrowful
Saturday - Joyful
Sunday - Glorious

Try to place yourself "into" the scene of the particular mystery as you pray, imagining the sights, smells, sounds, and emotions that Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and other participants experienced during the actual events.

It is also okay to meditate on the meaning of the words of the prayers as you pray them, or even to meditate on the person for whom you are offering the Rosary.

Offering Intentions
Practically everyone who prays the Rosary "offers" the Rosary to God and Our Lady for an intention. Some people offer particular intentions before each decade. You can ask God to grant you a favor, heal a sick person, or convert a sinner. Some people offer the same intention every day--sometimes for years on end--especially when asking the Father for the conversion of a particular person. Intentions are as varied as the people who pray.

Ask for big and small gifts. Be bold! In this sense, the Rosary is an exchange of gifts between friends.

It is widely known that Our Lady answers seemingly impossible intentions to those who are first beginning to pray the Rosary. This is her way of drawing you closer to Her and to Jesus. If you are praying your first Rosary, or returning to the Rosary after years of not talking to Our Lady, ask for something big, spectacular, "impossible." She'll often surprise you.

Meriting a Plenary Indulgence
The Catholic Church, exercising its authority to "bind and loose on heaven and earth," and in perfect accord with God's Mercy, has set the following conditions for the granting of a plenary indulgence for those who pray the Rosary:

Be in a state of grace--that is your soul is free from mortal sin.
Be free from attachment to--that is, not in the habit of--venial sin.
Go to confession several days before or after praying the Rosary.
Receive Holy Communion on the day you pray the Rosary.
Say a prayer for the Pope.
By fulfilling these simple (but often difficult) conditions, you merit the grace to release one soul from Purgatory. While we are free to ask God to apply this grace to a particular soul, God can do as he pleases, according to His Will and Mercy. You can also ask God to apply this special grace to your own soul. A plenary indulgence will relieve the temporal punishment due to sin (it will not absolve the sin or cause the sin to be forgiven).

The Full Rosary
A "full Rosary" consists of saying all twenty decades, that is, all four sets of five Mysteries. A "Rosary" consists of praying five decades of one set of Mysteries. Many people pray a full Rosary every day; either by praying four separate Rosaries in the morning, midday, afternoon, and evening; or all twenty Mysteries at one time (it is not necessary to repeat the preamble--the Apostles Creed, etc.--between the four sets of Mysteries if one is praying a full Rosary. Conclude with Hail Holy Queen after the last of the Glorious mysteries).

The Family Rosary
The Family Rosary is usually prayed out loud after dinner or before going to bed. Family members can take turns "leading" the decades with one person praying the beginning of the prayers, and all others praying the endings. Some families announce intentions before they begin the Rosary; others take turns announcing special intentions before they begin the Rosary; others take turns announcing special intentions before the beginning of each decade. Many families add favorite prayers at the end of the Rosary, or ask favorite saints and angels to pray for them.

Rosary Novenas
Any time you pray any set of prayers nine consecutive times, it is a novena (novena is Latin for nine). There are many traditional Catholic novenas, and several involve the Rosary. The most common is to say nine straight Saturdays or for nine consecutive hours in one day.

Defensor Christi said:

Full of Grace implies that there is no room for anything other than grace...i.e sin...

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That is a customary way of looking at it, and I acknowleged that even though I know that the meaning is "has found favor with God."

However, if we take your explanation, it still doesn't change anything.

Her Immacualte Conception would go hand-in-hand

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Ah. "hand in hand." Like "cue" before it, that means you understand that there is no real connection but you'd like to make it seem that there is.

No, there is nothing that makes for any Immaculate Conception out of those words.

Albion said:

That is a customary way of looking at it, and I acknowleged that even though I know that the meaning is "has found favor with God."

However, if we take your explanation, it still doesn't change anything.

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So, then...what is your explaination?

Ah. "hand in hand." Like "cue" before it, that means you understand that there is no real connection but you'd like to make it seem that there is.

No, there is nothing that makes for any Immaculate Conception out of those words.

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No, there is real connection...as long as you see the truth of the first part. One cannot be FULL of Grace and have a little sin (original or otherwise) mixed in...

Defensor Christi said:

So, then...what is your explaination?

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Would you agree to the claim that Mary was immaculate at the time the angel said that she was? If so, how many chances would God have had in the previous fifteen or so years to cleanse Mary from sin?

No, there is real connection...as long as you see the truth of the first part.

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No. There is no real connection in any case.

Albion said:

Even if "full of grace" is accepted instead of other translations, it doesn't mean sinlessness, and if we were to go so far as to agree that it does...that still in no way proves that there was any "Immaculate Conception."

Why would it have to be a matter of her conception, in other words?

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I was saying that I'd see that as a "Title" had Christ used it as such. That wasn't an admission that I'd believe in her sinlessness, only that I'd consider the title offical.

Albion said:

Would you agree to the claim that Mary was immaculate at the time the angel said that she was? If so, how many chances would God have had in the previous fifteen or so years to cleanse Mary from sin?
.

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So you believe that Mary was without sin for what period of time? The day before until the day after she gave birth to the Lord? The day of? If you believe that she was sinless at the annunciation...why would you try to argue against the Immaculate Conception?

Albion said:

Would you agree to the claim that Mary was immaculate at the time the angel said that she was? If so, how many chances would God have had in the previous fifteen or so years to cleanse Mary from sin?




No. There is no real connection in any case.

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Mary was immaculate before, during and after, as Gabriel said.

Defensor Christi said:

So you believe that Mary was without sin for what period of time? The day before until the day after she gave birth to the Lord? The day of? If you believe that she was sinless at the annunciation...why would you try to argue against the Immaculate Conception?

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What is your answer to my question?

Stryder06 said:

I was saying that I'd see that as a "Title" had Christ used it as such. That wasn't an admission that I'd believe in her sinlessness, only that I'd consider the title offical.

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Seems to be some mistake here. I was meaning to reply to Defensor.

Root of Jesse said:

Mary was immaculate before, during and after, as Gabriel said.

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Except that the angel did not say that.

Albion said:

What is your answer to my question?

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Do I believe she was without sin at the time of the annunciation? Of course...I believe she was conceived as such and remained as such (through the Grace of God) her entire life...I thought my answer went without saying...

So, yes God DID cleanse her of her sin prior to the annunciation...it happened during her conception.

Now can you answer my question?

Defensor Christi said:

Do I believe she was without sin at the time of the annunciation?

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This was the question:

"Would you agree to the claim that Mary was immaculate at the time the angel said that she was? If so, how many chances would God have had in the previous fifteen or so years to cleanse Mary from sin?"

Albion said:

This was the question:

"Would you agree to the claim that Mary was immaculate at the time the angel said that she was? If so, how many chances would God have had in the previous fifteen or so years to cleanse Mary from sin?"

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Here is my answer:

He only needed one chance...her conception.

If you are asking me to do some kind of long division to give you a scientific answer...you sir, are barking up the wrong tree...

EDIT:

Since we are clearing up the questions asked...here was mine:

So you believe that Mary was without sin for what period of time? The day before until the day after she gave birth to the Lord? The day of? If you believe that she was sinless at the annunciation...why would you try to argue against the Immaculate Conception?

Rev Randy said:

Oh I know good is intended and it's not done out of hate. Just explaining how it's received. How much veneration is too much? Again I'm reading how much love is too much. Is that even possible to have too much love as long as it does not exceed what one gives the Lord? I assure you that my wife get's more attention from me than Mary does. And I don't give my wife what she deserves. The neighbor lady says i worship the ground my wife walks on. She's so wrong. All I have for my wife is love. My worship goes in only one direction.
Loving those who are no longer here on earth with us shouldn't be that foreign a concept even to the non-believer. I mean if your mom dies, you don't stop loving her. Only George Jones sang that song. RIP George.

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Then in YOUR opinion, how much 'veneration' is considered worship?
I've been accused of worshiping scripture MANY times in GT.