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Mary was not sinless as some claim here. There is a reason why she offered two doves to the priest as an offering for her sins.
Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. Luke 2:22-24
But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean. Leviticus 12:8
Try to play "word games" with those passages, if you can...
What power and what unique role does she serve? No matter how you slice it, asking Mary to protect you and guide you is ascribing to her power and responsibility that belongs to God.
Actually, I'd have to get past the whole living dead thing first.
He disagrees with mary worship:
Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin! O my Mother! Thou who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, and refuge of sinners! I, the most wretched among them, now come to thee. I worship thee, great Queen, and give thee thanks for the many favors thou hast bestowed on my in the past; most of all do I thank thee for having saved me from hell, which I had so often deserved. I love thee, Lady most worthy of all love, and, by the love which I bear thee, I promise ever in the future to serve thee, and to do what in me lies to win others to thy love. In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation. Receive me as thy servant, and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou who art the Mother of mercy! And since thou hast so much power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the grace ever to overcome them. From thee I ask a true love of Jesus Christ, and the grace of a happy death. O my Mother! By thy love for God I beseech thee to be at all times my helper, but above all at the last moment of my life. Leave me not until thou seest me safe in heaven, there for endless ages to bless thee and sing thy praises. Such is my hope. Amen.― (Prayer of St. Alphonse Liguori, 3 yrs indulgence, Raccolta, 342)
Source: With Mary to Jesus: a collection of Marian prayers,by Fr. Theodore Anthony Zaremba. O.F.M., Franciscan Printery, Pulaski, Wis.,1954. The introduction says: "The indulgenced prayers contained herein are from the latest official edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum (Raccolta), a compilation of prayers and devotions enriched with indulgences by the authority of the Holy See."
18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church" (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)33. But where - as is the case in almost all dioceses, there exists a church in which the Virgin Mother of God is worshipped with more intense devotion, thither on stated days let pilgrims flock together in great numbers and publicly and in the open give glorious expression to their common Faith and their common love toward the Virgin Most Holy. ...34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica [St. Mary Major], in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles.Source:FULGENS CORONA, Encyclical Of Pope PIUS XII, September 8th, 1953.
I highlighted some points.
Foolishness..The Lord is God. All fall short of Him.
Mary was not sinless as some claim here. There is a reason why she offered two doves to the priest as an offering for her sins.
Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”, 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:22-24
But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean. Leviticus 12:8
Try to play "word games" with those passages, if you can...
We must die to be born of the dead.
We can be alive in Christ (if we're a regenerate Christian) but you nor anyone know the make up of the glorified body nor it's functionality outside what little is spoken of in scripture...
What you guys are doing is praying to dead people who may or may not have risen spiritually (2nd born's if you will, of the DEAD) to be with the Lord..
Here's what is disgusting about that, is that they would rather attack the divinity of Christ to defend a un-biblical doctrine than allow that doctrine it's true alignment to scripture...Which is non existent.
Neither do we give glory to Mary or the Saints. They reflect God's glory. That is all.
filled and magnified by Him (sorta as the Sun's light illuminates the moon).
Asking for Mary's protection and guidance is asking through her to her Son...Any grace she gives or protection she offers comes directly from Him...she merits nothing on her own...
What is the SDA theology concerning this?
He disagrees with mary worship:
Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin! O my Mother! Thou who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, and refuge of sinners! I, the most wretched among them, now come to thee. I worship thee, great Queen, and give thee thanks for the many favors thou hast bestowed on my in the past; most of all do I thank thee for having saved me from hell, which I had so often deserved. I love thee, Lady most worthy of all love, and, by the love which I bear thee, I promise ever in the future to serve thee, and to do what in me lies to win others to thy love. In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation. Receive me as thy servant, and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou who art the Mother of mercy! And since thou hast so much power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the grace ever to overcome them. From thee I ask a true love of Jesus Christ, and the grace of a happy death. O my Mother! By thy love for God I beseech thee to be at all times my helper, but above all at the last moment of my life. Leave me not until thou seest me safe in heaven, there for endless ages to bless thee and sing thy praises. Such is my hope. Amen.― (Prayer of St. Alphonse Liguori, 3 yrs indulgence, Raccolta, 342)
Source: With Mary to Jesus: a collection of Marian prayers,by Fr. Theodore Anthony Zaremba. O.F.M., Franciscan Printery,Pulaski, Wis.,1954. The introduction says: "The indulgenced prayers contained herein are from the latest official edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum (Raccolta), a compilation of prayers and devotions enriched with indulgences by the authority of the Holy See."
18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church" (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)
33. But where - as is the case in almost all dioceses, there exists a church in which the Virgin Mother of God is worshipped with more intense devotion, thither on stated days let pilgrims flock together in great numbers and publicly and in the open give glorious expression to their common Faith and their common love toward the Virgin Most Holy. ...
34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica [St. Mary Major], in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles.
Source:FULGENS CORONA, Encyclical Of Pope PIUS XII, September 8th, 1953.
I highlighted some points.
LORD have mercy! Forgive us all, for we not what we do.
It's such a pity that some actually defend this kind of paganism in spite of all the evidence presented. As Solomon wrote:
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
Jeremiah dealt with this evil spirit thousands of years ago, and now it seems that the spirit of Ishtar has re-surfaced once again.
At least that manyThread topic DENIED.
Ah well. I guess that's what I get for trying to talk about something that hasn't been rehashed eleventy billion times.
Thread topic DENIED.
Ah well. I guess that's what I get for trying to talk about something that hasn't been rehashed eleventy billion times.
At least that many
It doesn't matter 'what' the OP is about lol.
Most threads dissolve into an argument about
Scripture v tradition, law v faith, or Mary etc.
I know the feeling. Be encouraged, there was some edification in this thread here and there. And you, precious, are always edifying <3
lolI know, right? You'd think these folks would just excommunicate each other and be done with it.
Oh wait...
Fulgens corona is an encyclical by Pope Pius XII, written in 1953, on the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and proclaims a Marian year for 1954, to commemorate the centenary of the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. The part you bolded, however, which includes the part about nothing being more dearer than to worship...the Mother of God is not from Fulgens Corona, it is from Ineffabilis Deus.
Ineffabilis Deus ia a Papal bull by Pope Pius IX. that defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and was promulgated in 1854. Yes, Pius IX did write that, but did he mean to put Mary on the same level as Jesus? To us in 2008, when we say worship it is commonly understood as showing devotion to a diety above all else. Remember though, that the word worship comes from the Old English word worthship, which denotes the worthiness of the one receiving a special honor or devotion. The audience of Pius IX in 1854 would understand that there are two forms of worship: The formal reverence and honor due only to God, and the devotion and love due to all other holy people. (You can still see vestiges of this today in the system of English Law where judges are referred to as Your Worship.
So you see, Pius IX is calling us to give honor and devotion to Mary but that is in no way even close to the reverence and glory we are to give to Jesus. You are reading an 1854 document with a 2013 vocabulary. To understand this more fully, pull up Ineffabilis Deus and read the whole Papal Bull.
Now, to finish up, lets go back to Pius XII in 1953. Does he think we need to worship Mary the same as Jesus? Hardly. All you have to do is scroll up a couple of lines to section 15 of Fulgens Corona:
15. Non-Catholics and reformers are therefore mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because "The glory of children are their fathers" (Book of Proverbs, XVII 6).
Not only that...but consider this passage of Scripture from the KJV...
1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. (Luke 14:1-10)
Thanks, sis.
And you're right. These threads work just like the church. Jewels of grace nestled in noise and bluster.
Even more clearly stated here...
A bad choice of words
When the time came for that gesture at this particular wedding, the priest tried to explain. He said that the placing of the flowers is done because "we Catholics worship Mary." There was a collective sigh from the few Catholics in the church and a collective gasp from the non-Catholics, who felt their worst suspicions confirmed.
Was the priest right or wrong? Well, both. He was right, given his understanding of the word "worship," though he was using it an almost archaic sense. He was surely wrong in using it in front of people who would misunderstand his meaning.
In common speech "worship" means the adoration given to God alone. In this sense Catholics don't worship Mary or any of the other saints. In fact, the Catholic Church forbids any adoration to be given to any one or any thing but God. But in an older use of the term "worship" could cover not just the adoration of God but also the honor given to anyone deserving of honor.
Begin with the word itself. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
But there are different kinds of worship, just as there are different kinds of honor. The highest honor, and thus the highest worship, is given to God alone, while the honor or worship given to living men or to saints in heaven is of a different sort. Idolatry thus does not simply mean giving worship (in the old sense) to living men or to saints; it means giving them the kind reserved for God.
Nowadays, there is a problem using the word "worship" because in the popular mind it refers to the worship of God alone. For practical purposes it has come to mean nothing else than adoration. Although it was commonly used in the wider sense as recently as the nineteenth century (when, for instance, Orestes Brownson, an American Catholic writer, produced a book called The Worship of Mary), it is usually too confusing to use it that way now, as the example of the priest shows. It is wise to restrict its use to God and to use for saints and others terms like honor and veneration.
Is this distinction without a difference? It would be if the worship given to God were the same as the honor given to a saint. But it isn't.
The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. Its appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.
For example, in Genesis 37:7-9 Joseph relates two dreams which God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "'ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshipped [shakah] my sheaf.' . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, 'Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshipping [shakah] me.'"
In Genesis 49:8, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall worship [shakah] you." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshipped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."
Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration--the kind of worship given to God.
Saint Worship?
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