Something About Mary

[seeingeyes]

Let me preface this by saying this is not an anti-Catholic thread. If you would like to tell Catholics, EO, or others what they believe, there are plenty of other threads for you to get closed down. Go there.

I'm posting this because I have not seen it addressed anywhere else, and I'm looking for some insight.

A little background about myself: I was raised Evangelical with a tinge of anti-RCC (My parents both come from families that could have gotten booked on Montel Williams in a heart-beat. Both families were Catholic. That is no reflection on the church, but brains make patterns...that's just what they do.)

Whenever I asked people what was 'wrong' with the RCC the answers were the same. "They worship Mary." "They pray to saints." "They kiss idols." You know the drill. It's the same as what we see on these boards all day long.

Having grown up, and subsequently gotten smacked upside the head by grace, and being no longer willing to carry my own grudges, let alone those of others, I started being able to 'hear' the real answers that Catholics and others give.

And it is those real answers that I would like to discuss.

A while back on these boards, an EO fellow (I don't remember who, but I remember he was EO because he gave me a list of 47 books to read. ) took the time to explain to me the idea of the communion of the saints, both physically alive and physically dead. Lovely.

And just yesterday, an RCC posted in another thread to the effect that prayers to Mary reflect Jesus' love for his mother, which we glimpse in our own love for our own mothers. Again lovely.

But here's what I would like to look at: When one dear woman shouted out to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” His response was unexpected.

He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

And another time, when Jesus' mother and brothers came looking for him, Jesus said, "“Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”"

Now Jesus was not denigrating Mary here, but rather pointing out his Father (as always) and lifting up the saints to Him. Even to the status of his mother.

The trouble I have (currently) with the idea of (me, personally) praying the rosary or kissing icons in reverence, is not that this is 'worship' or 'idolatry'. The trouble is that I do not treat any of the physically living saints with this particular 'type' of reverence.

I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.

I would not serenade my mother with, "My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve." Even though I love and admire her unreservedly. (And even if I did, I think she wouldn't to able to hear the end of my devoted speech over the racket of her own laughter.)

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

Thoughts?

 

[Cappadocious]

But here's what I would like to look at: When one dear woman shouted out to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” His response was unexpected.

He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

This is read on the feasts of the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary) in the Orthodox Church.

For who is numbered among those that say, "let it be to me according to your word?"

I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.

We do, you see. We also cense people.

I would not serenade my mother with, "My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve."

Well, it is to one's mothers, sisters, and brothers in Christ, for one. Not a biological mother by necessity.

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

One doesn't have to be flowery. One can just be beautiful.

Many today have no poetry in their souls.

Luckily, there are many things able to cure that deficiency.

 

[seeingeyes]

Many today have no poetry in their souls.

So true.

I wonder if, in response to vitriol, it wouldn't be a better rejoinder to say "We treat all the saints with the same reverence", rather than trying to explain how 'poetic' language is not 'worship'.

May I ask, do you personally feel revered as the saints before you? (Not that one should seek out reverence, but I'm asking if the culture of reverence in the church differentiates between those here now and those passed on.)

 

[Kristos]

I think you are right. The liturgical kiss of peace fell out of use among the laity - although it is being revived in some place, it feels contrived and awkward to me. For me - I do feel the joy of Christ, especially on Pascha and feel the urge to kiss and hug everyone and sometimes I do

 

[squint]

One may as well pray to Adam or Eve. Mary after all came through them did she not?

Revere them. Honor them. Adam was Gods son after all. Why not? Pray to the Prophets. They after all spoke Gods Words. I don't recall Mary doing that.

It's a dead end street. One may as well pray to their own ancestors as the heathen do.

I doubt very much that Mary or anyone else is in need of, what do they call it? Oh yeah, veneration. Who came up with that one anyway?

Venerate relics. Venerate icons. Venerate passed Saints.

Are relics, icons and passed on Saints SERIOUSLY in need of our veneration or we of fixating on them?

UNlikely.

Are they in need of public demonstrations of adoration's?

WHY? What possible purpose is served in that? I see NONE of that in either the Old or New Testament as an example other than by incredible leaps of inference.

There were various periods of time in church history when they DID consider such actions as not required. It was called iconoclasm.

What usually ends up happening is that all the various cultures have their favorite local Saints and icons and figures almost like nationalism except with a church face. And everyone parades around with their favorite protectorate. The whole thing is rather bizarre. Am I for destroying icons/idols or not praying to Mary. Hey, do what you want. It's of no interest to me.

I doubt very much the Mother of God is in need of anything I may have to offer and vice versa. I'm sure God in Christ took care of her after she moved on JUST FINE.

s

 

[seeingeyes]

Yo, squint. You know I love you, but you're off topic.

Here's the gist:

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

Thoughts?

God bless

 

[squint]

Yo, squint. You know I love you, but you're off topic.

Here's the gist:


God bless

If I failed to say that it is more important to LOVE THE LIVING, then my bad.

s

 

[Ignatius21]

You do point out the disconnect between our modern ways of showing reverence to family or others, and the traditions that are rooted WAY back in history.

People in other cultures routinely kiss each other in peace, men, women, children, doesn't matter. It's as common as a handshake.

Trouble is, you can't "fist bump" an icon

As the poster above pointed out, we in the Eastern tradition do show a similar reverance to living saints as to those who've "graduated." We cense the people. We kiss the hand of the priest (well, I don't, because it still weirds me out...)

In Orthodox iconography, if you stand in a traditionally shaped building (usually with a dome), you'll see that an Icon of Christ is at the top of the dome. He is the highest. Below that image, you'll find often the evangelists, and other apostles. Down the walls you'll find all sorts of other icons. But the only icons that actually touch the ground, are the worshippers. Let that one sink in a while

WE are living icons...not yet perfected into the likeness of God, yet made in his image. But we are all a part of the one temple of the living God.

Yes, the language of reverence toward saints can be really over the top by our standards. This is especially true of anything coming out of the Byzantine tradition. But if you read letters written in that era, even from one person to another (especially ecclesial or governmental), you'll see langauge used towards one another that is so flowery it's almost over the top. Byzantium wasn't exactly subtle!

It sounds like you've really thought about this. I hope you will find a resolution to your connundrum. For me, it didn't happen in some snap instant when I said "That's it!" It just...happened...I kind of absorbed it. So the language is weird. So what if I don't usually kiss pictures of my mother...although, I have found myself kissing a picture of my kids, and didn't even realize I was doing it.

We are all one body. The Incarnation isn't a was, it's an is, and since Christ is at once the true image of God, and the true image of man, in him we are joined to God through his one ongoing incarnation. The saints are part of that same reality...they're just closer than we are because they've been down the road already.

 

[seeingeyes]

If I failed to say that it is more important to LOVE THE LIVING, then my bad.

s

Thanks.

It's also much harder to love the living.

 

[Catherineanne]

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

Thoughts?

Flowery reverence is reserved for the saints, yes. But there is still reverence in the church. We may be less effusive to one another than happened in former days, but the respect remains.

 

[squint]

Thanks.

It's also much harder to love the living.

Indeed. It's always easier to love an ideal idea than to live in love to 'ordinary' folk.

 

[seeingeyes]

You do point out the disconnect between our modern ways of showing reverence to family or others, and the traditions that are rooted WAY back in history.

People in other cultures routinely kiss each other in peace, men, women, children, doesn't matter. It's as common as a handshake.

Trouble is, you can't "fist bump" an icon

As the poster above pointed out, we in the Eastern tradition do show a similar reverance to living saints as to those who've "graduated." We cense the people. We kiss the hand of the priest (well, I don't, because it still weirds me out...)

In Orthodox iconography, if you stand in a traditionally shaped building (usually with a dome), you'll see that an Icon of Christ is at the top of the dome. He is the highest. Below that image, you'll find often the evangelists, and other apostles. Down the walls you'll find all sorts of other icons. But the only icons that actually touch the ground, are the worshippers. Let that one sink in a while

WE are living icons...not yet perfected into the likeness of God, yet made in his image. But we are all a part of the one temple of the living God.

Yes, the language of reverence toward saints can be really over the top by our standards. This is especially true of anything coming out of the Byzantine tradition. But if you read letters written in that era, even from one person to another (especially ecclesial or governmental), you'll see langauge used towards one another that is so flowery it's almost over the top. Byzantium wasn't exactly subtle!

It sounds like you've really thought about this. I hope you will find a resolution to your connundrum. For me, it didn't happen in some snap instant when I said "That's it!" It just...happened...I kind of absorbed it. So the language is weird. So what if I don't usually kiss pictures of my mother...although, I have found myself kissing a picture of my kids, and didn't even realize I was doing it.

We are all one body. The Incarnation isn't a was, it's an is, and since Christ is at once the true image of God, and the true image of man, in him we are joined to God through his one ongoing incarnation. The saints are part of that same reality...they're just closer than we are because they've been down the road already.

I would totally fist-bump an icon. Or a priest. I doubt I would get invited back, though. I'm so misunderstood.

Do you, personally, feel that you hold those who show up and sit in the pews with the same reverence as those who have 'gotten off the floor'?

 

[Rhamiel]

But here's what I would like to look at: When one dear woman shouted out to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” His response was unexpected.

He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

I think that Jesus did two things with this
one, Jesus was talking to a crowd of jews in ancient times
ancient people and the jews had a very clannish mindset, everything was based on what tribe or clan you belonged to
in short, who you were related too
Jesus is trying to show us to get past this old mindset

but if you read Luke 1:46 you will see that Mary fulfils the blessing that Jesus calls for

 

[Kristos]

I would totally fist-bump an icon. Or a priest. I doubt I would get invited back, though. I'm so misunderstood.

Do you, personally, feel that you hold those who show up and sit in the pews with the same reverence as those who have 'gotten off the floor'?

Greet each other with a Holy bump

 

[seeingeyes]

Indeed. It's always easier to love an ideal idea than to live in love to 'ordinary' folk.

It's true! And even if they aren't 'idealized', icons don't wear too much cologne or hold modern political views. And they don't dominate the conversation.

 

[Albion]

Let me preface this by saying this is not an anti-Catholic thread. If you would like to tell Catholics, EO, or others what they believe, there are plenty of other threads for you to get closed down. Go there.

I'm posting this because I have not seen it addressed anywhere else, and I'm looking for some insight.

A little background about myself: I was raised Evangelical with a tinge of anti-RCC (My parents both come from families that could have gotten booked on Montel Williams in a heart-beat. Both families were Catholic. That is no reflection on the church, but brains make patterns...that's just what they do.)

Whenever I asked people what was 'wrong' with the RCC the answers were the same. "They worship Mary." "They pray to saints." "They kiss idols." You know the drill. It's the same as what we see on these boards all day long.

Having grown up, and subsequently gotten smacked upside the head by grace, and being no longer willing to carry my own grudges, let alone those of others, I started being able to 'hear' the real answers that Catholics and others give.

And it is those real answers that I would like to discuss.

A while back on these boards, an EO fellow (I don't remember who, but I remember he was EO because he gave me a list of 47 books to read. ) took the time to explain to me the idea of the communion of the saints, both physically alive and physically dead. Lovely.

And just yesterday, an RCC posted in another thread to the effect that prayers to Mary reflect Jesus' love for his mother, which we glimpse in our own love for our own mothers. Again lovely.

But here's what I would like to look at: When one dear woman shouted out to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” His response was unexpected.

He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

And another time, when Jesus' mother and brothers came looking for him, Jesus said, "“Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”"

Now Jesus was not denigrating Mary here, but rather pointing out his Father (as always) and lifting up the saints to Him. Even to the status of his mother.

The trouble I have (currently) with the idea of (me, personally) praying the rosary or kissing icons in reverence, is not that this is 'worship' or 'idolatry'. The trouble is that I do not treat any of the physically living saints with this particular 'type' of reverence.

I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.

I would not serenade my mother with, "My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve." Even though I love and admire her unreservedly. (And even if I did, I think she wouldn't to able to hear the end of my devoted speech over the racket of her own laughter.)

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

Thoughts?

So, basically, you were initially tempted to believe whatever you were told in defense of questionable doctrines and practices. In time, we see that we have a biased POV to work from at first; then when you hear from the other side, it immediately seems to cancel out everything learned before. It's new, after all, and a specific rejoinder. Only in time do we realize, and usually slowly, that neither extreme is entirely right or entirely wrong. That's the way learning works, whether it's history, political theory, or....this.

 

[seeingeyes]

Greet each other with a Holy bump

I can see that getting misinterpreted pretty quick.

 

[seeingeyes]

So, basically, you'll believe whatever you're told in defense of questionable doctrines and practices because....why? I didn't quite get that part. In any case, I can assure you that there is a "set" answer you are going to get if you question these things, but it is not necessarily accurate.

Maybe in time you'll see that. I know how it is. First you know nothing or have a biased POV to work from; then when you hear from the other side, it immediately seems to cancel out everything you had learned before. It new, after all. Only in time do you realize, and usually slowly, that neither extreme is entirely right or entirely wrong. That's the way learning works, whether it's history, political theory, or....this.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without excepting it. -Aristotle

I don't think I've expressed any extremes at all, other than the desire to talk to others about the beliefs they actually hold.

If that's too hard core, then put me on the Watch List.

 

[Albion]

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without excepting it. -Aristotle

I agree, and I momentarily made a mistake about what you were saying. Please take a look at my edited post.

 

[seeingeyes]

I think that Jesus did two things with this
one, Jesus was talking to a crowd of jews in ancient times
ancient people and the jews had a very clannish mindset, everything was based on what tribe or clan you belonged to
in short, who you were related too
Jesus is trying to show us to get past this old mindset

but if you read Luke 1:46 you will see that Mary fulfils the blessing that Jesus calls for

I brought up this passage to demonstrate not that Mary should be brought down a peg, but that Jesus was bringing the saints up a peg. As in, the people standing right in front of him.

Indeed, Mary is blessed among women. But how blessed are the rest of the women? For example, would you treat Old Claire who sits in the 5th row every mass and has devoted her long life to caring for others with a reverence approaching (if not matching) the reverence you offer to Mary?