Some thoughts on Predestination

[QvQ]

Making a 4 sided triangle isn't possible.
Nor is making a 2 sided square possible.
Nor is it possible to find integer factors for a prime number.
These are impossibilities, even for God.

Triangle and square are definitions. A triangle, three lines on a piece of paper, but triangle if actually constructed of flat iron has a few more sides if you care to count them. It depends on your definition of "side." Also the dimensions and curvature of space is a consideration, as paper is 1 dimension, actual triangle is 3 dimension. A triangle in 2 dimensional curved space is another propostion altogether.
Integer factors for a prime number is 1 and itself. Therefore, prime numbers have 2 integer factors.
God could get it done, if He so willed.

Mark Quayle Said:
"It is also impossible for there to be more than one "first cause". Therefore, self-determination of the creature is impossible."

That is complete nonsense.

I had to think awhile before I remembered where I read certain things
I finally remembered St. Thomas Aquinus.
I am a bit rusty
However:
1) One of the proofs of God's existence is God is the 1st Cause. One and Only
2) Therefore, self determination of the creature is impossible

Now about God's Decree (singular)
Also, if I remember correctly, there is only One Act.
That has to do with Time. God is not linear. Past --->Future.

Are you familiar with Aquinas?
There was a discussion about Divine Simplicity and Modal Collapse but Jonoitas and Atpollard were the only ones who posted although I had a conversation with Joniotas about it in mail.


Perhaps a 5 Point Calvinist is a 3 Point Calvinist / 2 Point Thomist

 

[Mark Quayle]

Chaleb said:
Do you know who teaches that everything is predestined to occur?

St Thomas Aquinas
Augustine

And Paul, and the rest of Scripture

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Chaleb said:
Do you know who teaches that everything is predestined to occur?

And Paul, and the rest of Scripture

Not really, not in a Calvinist predestination.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not really, not in a Calvinist predestination.

I don't say the Bible agrees with Calvin. But Calvinism, as I understand it, for the most part agrees with the Bible. (Where I disagree with Calvinism is I say they don't go far enough with the grace of God (monergism), and God's emanence.)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't say the Bible agrees with Calvin. But Calvinism, as I understand it, for the most part agrees with the Bible. (Where I disagree with Calvinism is I say they don't go far enough with the grace of God (monergism), and God's emanence.)

"I don't", "I understand", "I disagree", "I say" - All true, all not very relevant except to you. Everyone has opinions, you've shared yours; thankyou. What does your denomination teach?

 

[QvQ]

I am planting seeds. I know some won't sprout. I know the birds will eat some.I know some just won't make it because, because because
But I will plant them all, water them faithfully and trust in God for the harvest.
That is my idea of evangelism.
I talk to people about Christ and God. I would rather talk about God and eternity than most of what people worry themselves about.
I don't know which seed will sprout and grow.
Who is saved is not mine to judge.
IT is mine to plant the seeds. The harvest is God's.

 

[Chaleb]

I am planting seeds. I know some won't sprout. I know the birds will eat some.I know some just won't make it because, because because
But I will plant them all, water them faithfully and trust in God for the harvest.
That is my idea of evangelism.
I talk to people about Christ and God. I would rather talk about God and eternity than most of what people worry themselves about.
I don't know which seed will sprout and grow.
Who is saved is not mine to judge.
IT is mine to plant the seeds. The harvest is God's.

Jesus said you "must be born again".

Tell us about that, QVQ.

 

[Chaleb]

God foreknows who will be saved because he has predestined them to be so.

God foreknows who will be born again, because God's foreknowledge knows everything that will happen, next.

Calvin could not understand that "knowing is not the same as causing", so he twisted foreknowledge into his "predestined" heresy and people have been deceived by it ever since.
Calvin rewrote God's Grace as "God predestines some to go to hell and chooses who will not".

See, JC read that there are "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" and decided this was all those that God didn't force to be born again.
And had he actually read all the bible, he would have read :
John 3:36 that explains who they are...

These are people who choose not to believe in Jesus and die., as that is how FREE WILL can turn out for some.
Hebrews 10:26 and Acts 28:26-28 show unsaved HEBREWS doing it.
God does not CHOOSE anyone to be a Christ Rejector .....as the heretic JCalvin teaches.

 

[QvQ]

Jesus said you "must be born again".

Tell us about that, QVQ.

You must be born again of the Spirit.
I see three words that some people tend to overlook ...of the Spirit.

 

[Chaleb]

You must be born again of the Spirit.
I see three words that some people tend to overlook ...of the Spirit.

There are cults that host 2 billion believers who are taught that Water is this..

"Born again BY water".

"BY water".

"Born again........BY WATER".

That is a verse in John 3 found in a corrupted bible translated by Jerome.

God says you are born again BY...THE......"Holy Spirit". and the last time i took a shower, i noticed that Water is not the Holy Spirit...

Recently, im on a different forum........ and im talking to a water cultist who is yelling about "water washes away sin". !!!!!!
He's just ranting... I can hear the spit flying, he is raging.....>"water, water, water....."!!!!!!!!

He then tells me.....>"Look at Noah....That WATER SAVED Noah and His family"..... WATER SAVED... WATER SAVES ...You have to be water baptized to be SAVED" !!!!!!!

So, i pointed out to him that the FLOOD Water, is God's Judgment against sin in the world, and Had Noah and Family gotten in that "saving water" that was DROWNING TO DEATH everything that had a breath on the face of the earth, then Noah and Family would have DIED in that "saving water"< just like the sinners who were already drowned.
I then told this water cult person. that the ARK saved NOAH and Family from that WATER... ,and i explained that the ARK is symbolic of the CROSS of CHRIST that is WOOD, and has saved us from our SIN and from Eternal Judgment, as the Blood Atonement...as the New Covenant.

5 seconds later, he posts back.....>'So, as i said, the water saves, and the water saved Noah !!!!!!

 

[QvQ]

God says you are born again BY...THE......"Holy Spirit

However, what it does not say is that a person can be born again without the Holy Spirit.
"The Spirit gives birth to the Spirit"

 

[John Mullally]

So, in your so well-documented understanding of Scripture, God did not set out to save anyone, then?

Hi Mark, I know you did not address me, but here I am again to give you God's word.

Jesus says that those who believe on HIm will be saved. That is the answer to your question.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist Evangelical, I believe from scripture that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love onto people, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely (also 1 Timothy 2:4). Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach their Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it - the problem here is that Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 testify that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven. I agree it will happen someday in the future.

 

[John Mullally]

I am planting seeds. I know some won't sprout. I know the birds will eat some.I know some just won't make it because, because because
But I will plant them all, water them faithfully and trust in God for the harvest.
That is my idea of evangelism.
I talk to people about Christ and God. I would rather talk about God and eternity than most of what people worry themselves about.
I don't know which seed will sprout and grow.
Who is saved is not mine to judge.
IT is mine to plant the seeds. The harvest is God's.

Just make sure the seeds you plant are directly tied to God's word - better yet those words are directly from the Bible. If your seed supports man's doctrine that positions much of humanity in hell before birth, it is not from God as God is love.

 

[Chaleb]

However, what it does not say is that a person can be born again without the Holy Spirit.
"The Spirit gives birth to the Spirit"

Yes.

And WATER can't give birth to the spirit, so beware of CULTS that teach that WATER washes away your sin ....

 

[John Mullally]

Yes.

And WATER can't give birth to the spirit, so beware of CULTS that teach that WATER washes away your sin ....

As our pastor said: "Someone who goes into the water as an unrepentant dry devil, will come out of the water as a wet devil."

 

[Chaleb]

As our pastor said: "Someone who goes into the water as an unrepentant dry devil, will come out of the water as a wet devil."

Amen.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi Mark, I know you did not address me, but here I am again to give you God's word.

Jesus says that those who believe on HIm will be saved. That is the answer to your question.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist Evangelical, I believe from scripture that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love onto people, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely (also 1 Timothy 2:4). Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach their Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it - the problem here is that Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 testify that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven. I agree it will happen someday in the future.

While I don't want to question your calling and sincerity, I already have several copies of God's word and don't need you to give me God's word.

Apparently you didn't follow the the argument up til now. That isn't the answer to my question. I was playing Chaleb a bit there,

Chaleb had asked, "So, how is God Just, to send you to hell, if He wont choose you to believe in Jesus?" --which I took to indicate he disagreed that God would be just to send someone to hell if he had not chosen them to believe in Jesus. to which I had responded that "God is just and right to send someone to hell for one sin alone. Why would he then be required to choose them to believe?"

To that, Chaleb responded with an irrelevant continued tirade about how he isn't a Calvinist (as if that wasn't long earlier abundantly obvious) so, "no need to accuse me, based on your misunderstanding of what i wrote." So if I had misunderstood what he had written (concerning his implication that God would not be just to send anyone to hell without choosing them to believe), to imply that he believed God originally intended to save everyone, but was unable, I wanted a firm answer from him on whether God intended to save everyone, or even anyone.

After all, if God intended to save everyone, you would have to believe in universalism, to avoid saying that God had failed in some regard, and was unable to complete what he had begun. And if God had no one in particular in mind to save, then I wanted to hear him say so.

So I asked him if God had not intended to save everyone, to which you claimed to answer me with continued irrelevance. If you want to answer, answer me directly. Don't quote scripture at me that doesn't tell me whether @Chaleb (or even you) believe God intended to save everyone.

 

[John Mullally]

While I don't want to question your calling and sincerity, I already have several copies of God's word and don't need you to give me God's word.

It comes you flippantly disrespect God's word. We are judged by God's word per John 12:48.

After all, if God intended to save everyone, you would have to believe in universalism, to avoid saying that God had failed in some regard, and was unable to complete what he had begun. And if God had no one in particular in mind to save, then I wanted to hear him say so.

Answer: God “desires all men to be saved” freely, by believing in His Son through willing participation, rather than desiring for all men to be saved irresistibly. (John 3:14-21).

If men choose to not to participate by believing, they only have themselves to blame for their torment - that is not God's failure.

Non-such:" I believe (so no scriptural backing here) that angels are working with our prayers to get people to believe by setting up encounters - my sister-in-law (who grew up in Iran) recently asked me about a tract that I left near the front door entrance. She went on to say her best friends are believers. Continue praying.

Soap box: How much do you really love God's word? Can you find each of the points of TULIP directly in scripture? Or as I have come to know it take pages of argumentation. If something is important, I believe it will be plainly stated by at least 2 scriptures - so by that it is adios to TULIP! I can't say it was nice knowing you.

Importance of scripture: I can backup at least 95% of the doctrinal things I say on these forums directly to scripture - thus I make many highlighted references to scripture. Selah. We should all strive to increase that percentage. I relish it when people challenge me to show them where scripture supports something I say.


Like I said in Post 112 that you term irrelevant: "Calvinists believe that If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing" - that is contradicted by Matthew 6:10.

God leaves much decision making up to each individual as only those who believe on Christ are saved. Calvinists don't accept that, so they concocted "Total Depravity" and "Irresistible Grace" - in order to put everything in God's hands.

 

[Chaleb]

Chaleb had asked, "So, how is God Just, to send you to hell, if He wont choose you to believe in Jesus?" --

Exactly.

If God sends you to hell for not believing in Jesus, because He wont let you....>"are not on of the predestined".. then God is unjust.

God can't prevent you from believing, and then hold you accountable for unbelief , which is the only reason people go to hell.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It comes you flippantly disrespect God's word. We are judged by God's word per John 12:48.

By one's own standard will they be measured.

Answer: God “desires all men to be saved” freely, by believing in His Son through willing participation, rather than desiring for all men to be saved irresistibly. (John 3:14-21).

So by this, I gather you believe that he has no one in particular in mind, nor everyone in particular in mind, to save --i.e. he did not intend to save anybody in particular.

If men choose to not to participate by believing, they only have themselves to blame for their torment - that is not God's failure.

While I object to your terminology --"participate"(?!)-- I agree they only have themselves to blame. But if one says that God had intended to save anyone who was not saved, then they are saying that God failed.

Non-such:" I believe (so no scriptural backing here) that angels are working with our prayers to get people to believe by setting up encounters - my sister-in-law (who grew up in Iran) recently asked me about a tract that I left near the front door entrance. She went on to say her best friends are believers. Continue praying.

Soap box: How much do you really love God's word? Can you find each of the points of TULIP directly in scripture? Or as I have come to know it take pages of argumentation. If something is important, I believe it will be plainly stated by at least 2 scriptures - so by that it is adios to TULIP! I can't say it was nice knowing you.

Importance of scripture: I can backup at least 95% of the doctrinal things I say on these forums directly to scripture - thus I make many highlighted references to scripture. Selah. We should all strive to increase that percentage. I relish it when people challenge me to show them where scripture supports something I say.

I can imagine you do relish, since your eisegesis demonstrates your biased point of view. It is amazing how self-determination blinds itself!

Like I said in Post 112 that you term irrelevant: "Calvinists believe that If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing" - that is contradicted by Matthew 6:10.

It was irrelevant to the question I asked. Nevertheless, Matthew 6:10 does not contradict that God accomplishes absolutely everything he set out to do. It even suggests that God even uses our prayers to accomplish things.

God leaves much decision making up to each individual as only those who believe on Christ are saved. Calvinists don't accept that, so they concocted "Total Depravity" and "Irresistible Grace" - in order to put everything in God's hands.

Not at all. Only those upon whom God has chosen to show mercy -- the "objects of his mercy"-- are those who believe. There is no conflict. We indeed do decide, as I have many times pointed out. The difference is in your notion that self-determination determines one's eternal destination, while I believe that God's mercy vs. our deserved condemnation, determines one's eternal destination. And yes, this includes much more than simply relief from condemnation. Self-determination sets itself in opposition to unity with God. It demands parts --God's part, and man's part, even if it claims man's part is 'in cooperation with' God. What God does is not added to, improved, nor completed by us. Man's belief is a result of the work of God upon him.