Some thoughts on Predestination

[Clare73]

Making a 4 sided triangle isn't possible.
Nor is making a 2 sided square possible.
Nor is it possible to find integer factors for a prime number.
These are impossibilities, even for God.

But not in salvation. . .

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Doctrines from 2000 years ago is what I go by. Nor do I assume to know what it means for God to 'want' something. I didn't learn what I believe from Calvinists nor the Reformed. This I have learned, that God is not like us.

Reformed, Calvinist, doctrines of grace, none of these were preached by the Lord, Jesus Christ, two thousand years ago. None of them were preached any time by the Church that the Lord founded in the one thousand five hundred years between the earthly sojourn of Jesus Christ and the beginning of the Protestant revolt. None of them has been taught by the Church since the protestant revolt started around 500 years ago.

But all of them have been preached by some, propagated with evangelical zeal by some, proclaimed in forums, on streets, in houses, and in church buildings by some since around 500 years ago. And, good sir, you are one among the proclaimers of "the doctrines of grace, Calvinism, the Reformed faith".

You give me too much credit! I came to what I believe apart from instruction by Calvinists/Reformed. But that what I believe so closely matches them is wonderful to hear!

To what I have learned, the main differences between Calvinist/Reformed theology and the most of rest of Christendom, has everything to do with God's absolute sovereignty, and grace. But to me, the difference seems more of a realization of dependence on God —even unity with God— vs. self-determination.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Making a 4 sided triangle isn't possible.
Nor is making a 2 sided square possible.
Nor is it possible to find integer factors for a prime number.
These are impossibilities, even for God.

It is also impossible for there to be more than one "first cause". Therefore, self-determination of the creature is impossible.
It is also impossible for mere "chance" to determine anything. So it is impossible for one creature to do something better than another creature, apart from being caused to do so.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is also impossible for there to be more than one "first cause". Therefore, self-determination of the creature is impossible.

Very suspicious bit of reasoning.

It is also impossible for mere "chance" to determine anything. So it is impossible for one creature to do something better than another creature, apart from being caused to do so.

That is complete nonsense.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God does not "pre-destine" anyone to go to hell., as if He did then the Cross would not be a Gift. It would be selective.
If that is true then God is choosing favorites out of a world of sinners, as "all have sinned".

The NT teaches that God is "no respector of persons"....so, if he chose some for hell and others for heaven, Then God is respecting some and not others.


God told us that we are to BELIEVE.
And believing is : choice.... Choice is free will, being exercized.

How does that follow —that if the Cross is selective it would not be a gift? Does God owe everybody equal chance or something? God owes nobody anything.

Since this late into the conversation you bring up the "respecter of persons" thing, go back and read that in context, this time. Then ask yourself why he said "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated", and why he chose Israel for his chosen people. It was not because Israel was more worthy. It was not because every nation had an "equal chance" —whatever that means. Go look up "elect".

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
It is also impossible for there to be more than one "first cause". Therefore, self-determination of the creature is impossible.

Very suspicious bit of reasoning.

Having a bit of trouble countering it?


Mark Quayle said:
It is also impossible for mere "chance" to determine anything. So it is impossible for one creature to do something better than another creature, apart from being caused to do so.

That is complete nonsense.

But you can't quite explain why, can you!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Having a bit of trouble countering it?

Yes, I could not stop laughing at it.

But you can't quite explain why, can you!

Complete nonsense brooks no explanation; it is, after all, nonsense.

 

[Chaleb]

How does that follow —that if the Cross is selective it would not be a gift?

Calvin teaches that John 3:16 is a lie.

John 3:16 says that "For God so loved the WORLD"....that He gave Jesus ... on the Cross.

"world" is not the trees and the Tesla electric cars., nor is it the "pre-destined elect".
"world" is every human being that was living when that Cross of Christ was raised, and until right now and tomorrow.

Jesus said...and Calvin denies this.........."If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will Draw ALL".....to me".

All, is what Calvin denies, which means that Calvin is a "Cross denier".. Paul said of these typels they are "enemies of the Cross".
That not a good place to be when you die.
Calvin found this out., the hard way.

The problem Calvin had, .. he had a few, but one was = that he could not discern the word of God.
He read it like many read it today as if its a dictionary.

Where he became really confused was with "foreknowledge".

Calvin teaches that if God knows something before it happens....(foreknowledge) then that means that God causes it.
And right there is where the train flew off the doctrinal Track, with Calvin in it, and a lot of denominations went right into that abyss with Him.
As the reality is....that God knowing everything before it happens is not the same as God causing it to happen.
Knowing before it happens is "foreknowledge".... "knowledge BE-Fore" it happens.
Calvin's twisted mind read..>God causes it before it happens, = Foreknowledge.
Calvin could not understand "foreknowledge"., and neither do his followers.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You give me too much credit!

Oh please, I was not attempting to give credit.

I came to what I believe apart from instruction by Calvinists/Reformed.

One wonders.

But that what I believe so closely matches them is wonderful to hear!

Absolute serendipity!

 

[Mark Quayle]

​

Mark Quayle said:
I came to what I believe apart from instruction by Calvinists/Reformed.

One wonders.

I also came to what I believe apart from instruction from the RCC.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvin teaches that John 3:16 is a lie.

John 3:16 says that "For God so loved the WORLD"....that He gave Jesus ... on the Cross.

"For God loved the world thus, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes on him would not perish, but have everlasting life."

"world" is not the trees and the Tesla electric cars., nor is it the "pre-destined elect".
"world" is every human being that was living when that Cross of Christ was raised, and until right now and tomorrow.

Why not those before the Cross? Is God choosy? On what basis does God choose? And how does one person choose well and another badly?

Jesus said...and Calvin denies this.........."If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will Draw ALL".....to me".

All, is what Calvin denies, which means that Calvin is a "Cross denier"

Will be interested to hear, the logic that takes the false notion that Calvin denies what the Bible says to mean the false notion 'that Calvin is a "Cross denier"'. I mean, even if, for the sake of argument, we allow that they were both true, I'd like to see the logical sequence from the assumption to the conclusion.

.. Paul said of these typels they are "enemies of the Cross".

Where does Paul say that "of these typels they are "enemies of the Cross"."

That not a good place to be when you die.
Calvin found this out., the hard way.

I suppose you were there to witness this? I'm pretty sure we are all going to be surprised who is and who is not there.

The problem Calvin had, .. he had a few, but one was = that he could not discern the word of God.
He read it like many read it today as if its a dictionary.

Yes, I see you have a problem with the accuracy of the wording and the language of Scripture.

Where he became really confused was with "foreknowledge".

Calvin teaches that if God knows something before it happens....(foreknowledge) then that means that God causes it.
And right there is where the train flew off the doctrinal Track, with Calvin in it, and a lot of denominations went right into that abyss with Him.
As the reality is....that God knowing everything before it happens is not the same as God causing it to happen.
Knowing before it happens is "foreknowledge".... "knowledge BE-Fore" it happens.
Calvin's twisted mind read..>God causes it before it happens, = Foreknowledge.
Calvin could not understand "foreknowledge"., and neither do his followers.

It is propitious, and maybe I should say "lucky" instead of "providential", that you were here to straighten THIS up! All along, while logic demands that all effects are caused, and because you know better than the Greek and Hebrew and Biblical experts who tell us that when the Bible references God foreknowing, it is with intention that he does so, you have changed our whole thinking to gratefully acknowledge the power of the creature, all on his own, to cause the Creator to do what he did not originally intend. And right from the beginning, while common sense and science have been thinking in terms of causation, you bring us to confident trust in mere chance.

 

[BobRyan]

Calvin teaches that John 3:16 is a lie.

John 3:16 says that "For God so loved the WORLD"....that He gave Jesus ... on the Cross.

"world" is not the trees and the Tesla electric cars., nor is it the "pre-destined elect".
"world" is every human being that was living when that Cross of Christ was raised, and until right now and tomorrow.

Jesus said...and Calvin denies this.........."If i be lifted up (on the Cross) i will Draw ALL".....to me".

All, is what Calvin denies,

apparently so

Where he (Calvin) became really confused was with "foreknowledge".

Calvin teaches that if God knows something before it happens....(foreknowledge) then that means that God causes it.
And right there is where the train flew off the doctrinal Track, with Calvin in it,

apparently that is also the case.

As the reality is....that God knowing everything before it happens is not the same as God causing it to happen.

Indeed - God does not "Cause" someone to "take His name in vain" nor does He "ordain that they should do it" nor does He command it.

Rather He allows / permits it - up to a limit of boundaries that He sovereignly sets.

Knowing before it happens is "foreknowledge".... "knowledge BE-Fore" it happens.

amen.

 

[BobRyan]

"For God loved the world thus, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes on him would not perish, but have everlasting life."

Why not those before the Cross?

Agreed -- in fact that text above is a quote of the pre-cross statement of Christ which he makes to a pre-cross teacher of the Jews and marvels that such a teacher could possibly be confused even a tiny bit as to this pre-cross doctrine.

So yes - it applies before the cross and also after

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

​

Mark Quayle said:
I came to what I believe apart from instruction by Calvinists/Reformed.

I also came to what I believe apart from instruction from the RCC.

Truly, for the Catholic Church has never taught such nonsense.

 

[Chaleb]

Why not those before the Cross? Is God choosy? On what basis does God choose? And how does one person choose well and another badly?

Will be interested to hear, the logic that takes the false notion that Calvin denies what the Bible says to mean the false notion 'that Calvin is a "Cross denier"'.

Where does Paul say that "of these typels they are "enemies of the Cross"."

Yes, I see you have a problem with the accuracy of the wording and the language of Scripture.

It is propitious, and maybe I should say "lucky" instead of "providential", t

Yes, Calvin is a Cross Denier. as Calvin teaches that the Cross is not given to humanity, its given to the "predestined".

God has a different viewpoint........As He told us that "Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".
And who is that, Mark?
Every person ever born after Adam.

Also, as i said, Calvin had some issues, but this idea that "foreknowledge" chooses, was just the worst carnal misunderstanding of the bible.
As He confused God knowing everything with God causing everything, and once he went into that Theological darkness, the rest of his Theology followed suit.

And Mark you said i have an issue with "wording of the Scripture"...yet you didnt know that people like Calvin and similer were defined by Paul as enemies of the Cross.

Here are some verseffor you. that Paul Wrote., that i was telling you about.

-
King James Bible
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

New King James Version
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

American Standard Version
For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Berean Study Bible
For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping), that they are enemies of the cross of Christ;

English Revised Version
For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

World English Bible
For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
for many walk of whom many times I told you -- and now also weeping tell -- the enemies of the cross of the Christ!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Truly, for the Catholic Church has never taught such nonsense.

Once again, you haven't shown how it is nonsense.

Yes, Calvin is a Cross Denier. as Calvin teaches that the Cross is not given to humanity, its given to the "predestined".

God has a different viewpoint........As He told us that "Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".
And who is that, Mark?
Every person ever born after Adam.

Also, as i said, Calvin had some issues, but this idea that "foreknowledge" chooses, was just the worst carnal misunderstanding of the bible.
As He confused God knowing everything with God causing everything, and once he went into that Theological darkness, the rest of his Theology followed suit.

And Mark you said i have an issue with "wording of the Scripture"...yet you didnt know that people like Calvin and similer were defined by Paul as enemies of the Cross.

Here are some verseffor you. that Paul Wrote., that i was telling you about.

-
King James Bible
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

New King James Version
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

American Standard Version
For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Berean Study Bible
For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping), that they are enemies of the cross of Christ;

English Revised Version
For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

World English Bible
For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ,

Young's Literal Translation
for many walk of whom many times I told you -- and now also weeping tell -- the enemies of the cross of the Christ!

I don't know if you didn't include the reference so that I wouldn't know the context, but sorry. The verse does not show that Calvin nor his followers, (nor Calvinism nor Reformed theology) are enemies of the cross of Christ. (Even with an exclamation mark after 'Christ' it still does not show it!) Even the very verse itself, (without needing to include the rest of the context of the phrase concerning which you found it, for some reason, useful to include so many versions —does repetition increase reliability?—) shows you are using it wrong.

Philippians 3: "18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things." —Where is Calvin's mind set on earthly things? Where is Calvin's god his stomach? You are merely repeating your assertion that Calvin is an enemy of the cross of Christ. You have no demonstration of your thesis.

 

[Chaleb]

Once again, you haven't shown how it is nonsense.

I don't know if you didn't include the reference so that I wouldn't know the context, but sorry. The verse does not show that Calvin nor his followers, (nor Calvinism nor Reformed theology) are enemies of the cross of Christ.

Calvin IS a Cross denier.

Calvin teaches that God chose the Elect, "Predestined by foreknowledge",.... and any Calvinist or Hyper, will tell you that God only chose some for heaven.

And that means that Calvin LIMITS the Cross to only the "predesteined". based on his misunderstanding of "FOREKNOWLEDGE"........ and of course Free Will is now omitted.

The TRUTH is, that the Cross of Christ, which is the Blood Atonment is given to everyone to "BELEIVE"..
So, to DENY this is to Limit the Cross and that is to DENY IT.

Understand?

read these verses by Paul.

Notice carefully the world "WORLD"........that you find also in John 3:16 That J. Calvin Denies., because He's a Cross denier.

The Cross is given to the World.........and Calvin denies it because He is a Cross Denying "theologican".
-
New International Version
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

New Living Translation
For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.

English Standard Version
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Berean Standard Bible
that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Berean Literal Bible
how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.

King James Bible
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

New King James Version
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

NASB 1995
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Clare73]

Calvin IS a Cross denier.

Calvin teaches that God chose the Elect, "Predestined by foreknowledge",.... and any Calvinist or Hyper, will tell you that God only chose some for heaven.
And that means that Calvin LIMITS the Cross to only the "predesteined". based on his misunderstanding of "FOREKNOWLEDGE"........

Foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is used in the NT only of divine foreknowledge (Ro 8:29-30), prognosis is not used in reference to man.
Before the foundations of the world, God predestined the elect to be redeemed (Ro 8:29-30).
God foreknows who will be saved because he has predestined them to be so.
Just as God foreknew that Jacob would be the forefather of the Messiah, because he had predestined him to be so (Ro 9:11-12).

and of course Free Will is now omitted.

Keeping in mind that "free will" is not a Biblical notion, it is a human notion based on the assumption that responsibility for sin justly requires a free will.
Jesus said we are slaves to sin. Slaves are not free.
Man is not free to make all moral choices, he cannot choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed at all times.
Man is morally free in the sense that he is able to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, likes.

 

[Chaleb]

Foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is used in the NT only of divine foreknowledge (Ro 8:29-30), prognosis is not used in reference to man.

Man is not free to make all moral choices, he cannot choose to be sinless in thought,

I dont accept your Greek commentary's definitions, as who knows who translated them.

And you can't read Greek, or speak it ?????? So,..i should not be asked to accept anything you or any one else who is not "Koine Greek Fluent". posts in "Greek" with some translation added to it.

However, if you read and speak Koine Greek fluently for most of your life, then by all means, grab a Textus Receptus, or if you can do it in Latin, then get a Vulgate and post your pov.

As for me.... Well, before i started any ministry, i spent years studying, and that includes Seminary.
Ive a good bit of Training in "manuscript evidence" regarding "extant greek texts" and so, i use a Bible instead.
I am a Bible Believer, who will never try to correct a Bible with a Greek anything.
I dont correct the Bible, i believe it and teach it, tho, specifically its the NT, as Pauline Theology.

Also..

i understand Foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge, regarding God, is God's ability to know all things before they happen.

The Entire BIBLE is God's Foreknowledge continuing to occur., as its WRITTEN, already.

For example, God's Foreknowledge knew before you were born that i would respond to your post., Clare73.
So, did God "pre-destine" me to do it by knowing that i would before i existed in a human body?

1.) NO.
2.) NO
3.) NO.

So, that is the understanding that Calvin could never understand.
He taught that because God knows it all, before it happens..."foreknowledge". then that means God causes it all., and Calvin just kept obsessing on that circular reasoning nonsense and creating more and more TULIP theology.
Eventually He has God causing Evil., and it just gets worse.

Here is the reality. God reads your mind, but He does not cause what you think about, Clare73.
The Calvin would tell you...that because God knows what you are thinking, then you are "Predestined" to think it.

NONSENSE !

Its madness. and its just silly.
The man was off his mental chain, imo, and his Theology is Cross denying theology as in Calvin's darkened mental world God does not offer Jesus to everyone.

And this is the fact, that Calvinist's miss.......
= The fact is, if Calvin were alive today, he'd be in a straight jacket, in a padded room, talking about "total depravity" to the wall and the floor tiles, and the small crawling insects.
And Calvin would tell you the bugs are "pre-destined" to listen to him preach.

Woudl you believe him, reader?
Then dont believe Him at all., is the best remedy regarding His Theological infection.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen, Readers..

John 3:36, says that God's Wrath is on unbelievers., and if they die in their unbelief, they go to HELL.

So, how is God Just, to send you to hell, if He wont choose you to believe in Jesus?
How Can God, JUSTLY, send you to Hell for never believing in Jesus, If God wont choose you to Believe?
How can God be JUST and RIGHT to send you to hell for being a Christ Rejector, if God didn't choos you to believe,??

So, that is Calvin's demonic theology, highlighted in THAT LIGHT.
And any thinking person, can see that for what it is and means., as you can't miss it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I dont accept your Greek commentary's definitions, as who knows who translated them.

And you can't read Greek, or speak it ?????? So,..i should not be asked to accept anything you or any one else who is not "Koine Greek Fluent". posts in "Greek" with some translation added to it.

However, if you read and speak Koine Greek fluently for most of your life, then by all means, grab a Textus Receptus, or if you can do it in Latin, then get a Vulgate and post your pov.

As for me.... Well, before i started any ministry, i spent years studying, and that includes Seminary.
Ive a good bit of Training in "manuscript evidence" regarding "extant greek texts" and so, i use a Bible instead.
I am a Bible Believer, who will never try to correct a Bible with a Greek anything.
I dont correct the Bible, i believe it and teach it, tho, specifically its the NT, as Pauline Theology.

Also..

i understand Foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge, regarding God, is God's ability to know all things before they happen.

The Entire BIBLE is God's Foreknowledge continuing to occur., as its WRITTEN, already.

For example, God's Foreknowledge knew before you were born that i would respond to your post., Clare73.
So, did God "pre-destine" me to do it by knowing that i would before i existed in a human body?

1.) NO.
2.) NO
3.) NO.

So, that is the understanding that Calvin could never understand.
He taught that because God knows it all, before it happens..."foreknowledge". then that means God causes it all., and Calvin just kept obsessing on that circular reasoning nonsense and creating more and more TULIP theology.
Eventually He has God causing Evil., and it just gets worse.

Here is the reality. God reads your mind, but He does not cause what you think about, Clare73.
The Calvin would tell you...that because God knows what you are thinking, then you are "Predestined" to think it.

NONSENSE !

Its madness. and its just silly.
The man was off his mental chain, imo, and his Theology is Cross denying theology as in Calvin's darkened mental world God does not offer Jesus to everyone.

And this is the fact, that Calvinist's miss.......
= The fact is, if Calvin were alive today, he'd be in a straight jacket, in a padded room, talking about "total depravity" to the wall and the floor tiles, and the small crawling insects.
And Calvin would tell you the bugs are "pre-destined" to listen to him preach.

Woudl you believe him, reader?
Then dont believe Him at all., is the best remedy regarding His Theological infection.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen, Readers..

John 3:36, says that God's Wrath is on unbelievers., and if they die in their unbelief, they go to HELL.

So, how is God Just, to send you to hell, if He wont choose you to believe in Jesus?
How Can God, JUSTLY, send you to Hell for never believing in Jesus, If God wont choose you to Believe?
How can God be JUST and RIGHT to send you to hell for being a Christ Rejector, if God didn't choos you to believe,??

So, that is Calvin's demonic theology, highlighted in THAT LIGHT.
And any thinking person, can see that for what it is and means., as you can't miss it.

God is just and right to send someone to hell for one sin alone. Why would he then be required to choose them to believe?

"And any thinking person, can see that" your theology implies God is unable to complete what he set out to do.

Low-hanging fruit, there.