• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Some thoughts on baptism and covenant

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Amongst evangelical Christians there are some radical differences in the understanding of how, and in what manner God’s covenant exists today and who participates in that covenant.

If you are a Baptist or have a view of baptism that is similar to the Baptist position, then your conception of the covenant will be drastically different than someone, like myself, who has a Reformational understanding of what baptism is and who should be baptised.

To reject paedobaptism for a credobaptist position requires a very different understanding of some important biblical/theological matters. Historically the great majority of evangelicals have believed in the paedobaptism position.

Those of us that hold to “paedo” or “infant” baptism believe that new converts and the children of believers are both proper recipients of baptism. And, unlike our baptistic brethren, most of us also believe that baptism is not just an ordinance from God, but it is also a sacrament. We also believe it places us is in a covenantal relationship with God.

Now that is alien to the Baptist way of thinking. But is not alien to most historic evangelical Christian thinking.

Below are the first two questions and answers from the catechism which John Calvin wrote to instruct children in the faith.
Teacher: My child, are you a Christian in fact as well as in name?
Child: Yes, my father.
Teacher: How is this known to you?
Child: Because I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Now you must remember some things when you read the questions and answers above. Calvin certainly did he believe that all baptised children of believers would persevere in the faith, yet he did understand that all these baptised children could rightly say that they were Christians, because they were baptised as infants.

John Calvin was truly a Calvinist. He believed in the doctrinal teachings that now bear his name. He believed that all baptised children of Christian parents were in covenant with God.

These things very likely don’t make much sense to most, if not all, of my Baptist brethren. That is because they have a radically different understanding of the meaning of both baptism and covenant than did Calvin.

In a little more than 100 years after John Calvin wrote his catechism for children, the Puritans of England and the Presbyterians of Scotland produced the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms.

The authors of these documents were all Calvinists and staunchly evangelical. I would like to quote from questions 94 and 95 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism.
Q. 94. What is baptism?
A. Baptism is a sacrament, wherein the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, doth signify and seal our ingrafting into Christ, and partaking of the benefits of the covenant of grace, and our engagement to be the Lord’s.
Q. 95. To whom is Baptism to be administered?
A. Baptism is not to be administered to any that are out of the visible church, till they profess their faith in Christ, and obedienceto him; but the infants of such as are members of the visible church are to be baptized.
Notice that these men said that baptism signified and sealed “our ingrafting into Christ, and partaking of the benefits of the covenant of grace.” Notice also that converts and the children of believers are to proper recipients of baptism.

Like Calvin in the previous century these men did not believe that the waters of baptism literally washed away original sin, but they, like Calvin, saw it as a covenant sign. Children of believers, from the Reformed understanding, are, as were Israelites of old, born into the covenant and receive the New Covenant sign and seal, which is baptism. Does this give them an automatic ticket to heaven? No. They must, like the Israelites of old, trust and believe in the Messiah in order to inherit eternal life. Yet at the very same time they are, in this life, greatly privileged to be born in the covenant. This too was true of the Old Covenant Israelite. Even though he could (and often was) spiritually lost, he was still born with covenant privilege.

It is sort of like being born an American citizen. No one born here does anything to gain the privilege of such a citizenship. We have it because of our parents. Does being born an American citizen guarantee that you will prove worthy of that blessing? No it doesn’t. We can squander our citizenship in this country in many ways. In this world being born an American citizen means we are born with privileges that much of the world envies, and we can squander and loose those privileges if we live a life that is unbefitting our citizenship.

Like all analogies this one is not perfect, but I do hope it makes the point. Israelites had great privilege because they were born into God’s covenant people. Because of sin and unbelief many of them squandered that great privilege, but that does not mean that the privileges were not then real. They certainly were then and they still are today. Look at what Paul says in Romans on this very subject.

He writes:
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (Rom 2:28-3:3)

In the above text Paul makes the point that the true Jew, the one who was saved was saved, not because of outward inheritance or circumcision, but because of inward circumcision. Yet he still drives home the point that the ethnic Jew, even if he lost his covenantal blessings because of unbelief, was still born with real privileges because he was born a Jew and a member of God’s covenant people (i.e. outward circumcision).

My children were born into a covenant relationship with God. They were born and are now, according to Paul in 1 Cor. 7, “holy.” Paul also makes the point that if neither parent of certain children is a believer, than those children are “unclean.” Here are his words “For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.” This is covenantal language. Notice that even the unbelieving spouse is declared “sanctified.” Paul also tells the church members at Corinth that if neither parent is a believer the children are “unclean” (Gk: akathartos). How can this be? I believe it only makes sense when viewed covenantally.

The children of believers in the New Covenant, like the children of believers in the Old Covenant, are born to privileges that others outside the covenant don’t possess (unless grafted into it upon conversion). But they can and often do lose those privileges because of unbelief. Does this mean the covenantal blessings were not real? Certainly not. They are very real. But just like privileges we possess by our own U.S. citizenship that we have by being born in America, they can be wasted and lost by sin and unbelief.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 

TheMagi

Active Member
Jan 6, 2005
352
11
✟560.00
Faith
Protestant
Cajun Huguenot said:
If you are a Baptist or have a view of baptism that is similar to the Baptist position, then your conception of the covenant will be drastically different than someone, like myself, who has a Reformational understanding of what baptism is and who should be baptised.
Those of us that hold to “paedo” or “infant” baptism believe that new converts and the children of believers are both proper recipients of baptism. And, unlike our baptistic brethren, most of us also believe that baptism is not just an ordinance from God, but it is also a sacrament. We also believe it places us is in a covenantal relationship with God.

That's actually not the case. I at least dislike paedobaptism, and am probably, when it comes to the crunch, opposed to it. I also believe that it is a sacrament, just as you do. In fact, the very reason that I am not a paedobaptist is because I view it as a covenant, and as a covenant that is fundamentally different from that of the old testament.

Also, remeber that any argument from tradition as regards the reformed faith and baptism is rather difficult. Its Zwinglian origin had more to do with other actions of the first anabatists - risking a split in the church, arrogating authority to themsleves - than with the baptism itself.
Magi
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,864
✟344,531.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Cajun Huguenot said:
If you are a Baptist or have a view of baptism that is similar to the Baptist position, then your conception of the covenant will be drastically different than someone, like myself, who has a Reformational understanding of what baptism is and who should be baptised
Don't see how anyone can argue with that. You obviously believe that Genesis 9 & 17 apply:

Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you. (Gen 9:8-9)

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:7)

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)

-- Radagast
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
TheMagi said:
That's actually not the case. I at least dislike paedobaptism, and am probably, when it comes to the crunch, opposed to it. I also believe that it is a sacrament, just as you do. In fact, the very reason that I am not a paedobaptist is because I view it as a covenant, and as a covenant that is fundamentally different from that of the old testament.

Also, remeber that any argument from tradition as regards the reformed faith and baptism is rather difficult. Its Zwinglian origin had more to do with other actions of the first anabatists - risking a split in the church, arrogating authority to themsleves - than with the baptism itself.
Magi

Hello Magi,

Most Baptist I know (and I was one myself for about 16 years) do not see baptism as a covenant act or as a sacrament. I'm glad to know you see it differently than most. I assume it is because you are a Calvinistic Baptist.

You said "I view it as a covenant, and as a covenant that is fundamentally different from that of the old testament." That pretty much explains why you are not a paedobaptist. We disagree. We can discuss that if you like.

I disagree with your last paragraph. I am not in the Zwinglian wing of Reformed thinking. When it comes to the Sacraments I favour Calvin's position.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
  • Like
Reactions: Radagast
Upvote 0

CoffeeSwirls

snaps back wash after wash...
Apr 17, 2004
595
37
52
Ankeny, Iowa
Visit site
✟23,437.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I was not raised in a church that practiced any water baptism other than the believer's baptism, so I am a bit skewed in that direction. What I don't understand is how God is the one who decides whether or not one is in the covenant promise, but parents are the ones to do the work to get you in. I can't follow that logic. My vision of reformed theology is one that seeks always to minimize the work of the person as you maximize the credit to God. If one could be in the early church without circumcision, I don't see why we are suggesting it to be necessary that infants be baptized.

But then, that is really just an uneducated opinion.
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
CoffeeSwirls said:
What I don't understand is how God is the one who decides whether or not one is in the covenant promise, but parents are the ones to do the work to get you in. I can't follow that logic. My vision of reformed theology is one that seeks always to minimize the work of the person as you maximize the credit to God. If one could be in the early church without circumcision, I don't see why we are suggesting it to be necessary that infants be baptized.

CoffeeSwirls,

Thanks for the post. I appreciate what you write. I hope I can help with this reply.

Christian parents are to be faithful to do God's Word. With our Children we are to raise them to know and love the Lord. We are to teach them God's Word. If we do not do this it is very likely that they will never come to know him.

You can not "save" our children that is God's work, but it is likely that our children will be lost if we neglect our duty to train them up in the Lord. Baptising our children is a part of that duty to God and to them.

Circumcision was a blood rite. It was the sign God gave for his people under the Old Covenant. Ordinarily one could not be a part of the God's Covenant people without the sign of circumcision (women were included under the circumcision of the male head of household).

With the Christ work on the Cross complete ALL blood rites are fulfilled in Him and they are to be done away with. The shedding of blood for the Passover meal is replaced by the bread and wine of communion. The covenant sign (circumcision) was a blood rite and it is replaced with bloodless baptism. Both representing cleansing. They are both outward signs that point to the need of an inward reality.

The reason we baptise our children is because of the Covenant continuity. God’s promise to His people was always "to you and to your children." This exact same promise is repeated by Peter on Pentecost. God promise here is again to "you and to your children." The men who heard that sermon were steeped in 2,000 years of covenant thought. I don’t think they could have understood Peter any other way than that their children too were to receive the New Covenant sign of covenant inclusion.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0

CoffeeSwirls

snaps back wash after wash...
Apr 17, 2004
595
37
52
Ankeny, Iowa
Visit site
✟23,437.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Equating circumcision to baptism, I'm not sure I see how the scripture supports this. Yes, Israel was to circumcise their young on the 8th day, but what about passages such as Joshua 5?

Israel had not been following this practice during the 40 years of wandering, but now that they had entered Cannaan they were told to stop and do this. By the grace of God, their wilderness wandering was now over, and then they were commanded by God to be circumcised. At any point in the 40 years, God could have decreed that this be done, but it wasn't done until the promise was fulfilled.

Thanks for understanding that infant baptism is foreign to me, by the way. The ability to pose questions and compare variances in doctrine without the fear of ridicule is very comforting.
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
CoffeeSwirls said:
Equating circumcision to baptism, I'm not sure I see how the scripture supports this. Yes, Israel was to circumcise their young on the 8th day, but what about passages such as Joshua 5?

Israel had not been following this practice during the 40 years of wandering, but now that they had entered Cannaan they were told to stop and do this. By the grace of God, their wilderness wandering was now over, and then they were commanded by God to be circumcised. At any point in the 40 years, God could have decreed that this be done, but it wasn't done until the promise was fulfilled.

Thanks for understanding that infant baptism is foreign to me, by the way. The ability to pose questions and compare variances in doctrine without the fear of ridicule is very comforting.

Hello CoffeeSwirls,
I hope I never cause another brother or sister in the Lord to feel uneasy about discussing doctrinal issues. I have struggled with these things myself and I had a great friend (and late bro-in-law), Rev. Ron Davis (PCA) patiently work with me on this and many other aspects of Scripture.

I started life Roman Catholic (All Louisiana's Cajuns were French Roman Catholic then), but became Baptist after my father and mother came to know the Lord in a personal way. I was solidly Arminian Baptist until I returned home after four years in the U.S. Navy.

The first "Reformed" Christian I ever met was Ron Davis. He taught me the Doctrines of Grace (I fought this view). He was very patient and kind to me, always helpful and never belittling. I struggled, studied and prayed over all these things for years before I came to grasp them, love them and claim them as my own.

It is true that the Israelites did not circumcise their sons (excepting Moses) in the wilderness. God is gracious and overlooked it, as he does so many of our sins. But it was not something the Israelites could just take or leave, as I think the rest of Scripture clearly reveals.

Paul says in 1 Cor 7 that God looks on the children of believers differently than he does the children of unbelievers. The former are holy/saints and the latter are unclean. This fits in perfectly with the covenantal model that we find in the rest of Scripture, but I don't think my baptistic brethren have a good answer to this, from their point of view, but it fits perfectly into the Covenatal/Reformed point of view. (NOTE: Reformed is more than 5 points.)

Several years ago a Baptist acquaintance of mine gave me 10 reasons why circumcision are not similar in their meanings. I think I was able to show him how he was wrong on all 10 points. If you like I will find that exchange and post it for you.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
CoffeeSwirls said:
I'd like that. It's not a matter of me thinking that paedobaptism is wrong, I just don't see where it is taught in the scriptures.

Well Good,:thumbsup:

We can discuss it at your leisure. I too did not see it for a long time, and I have a number of friends whom I've watched make the transition from believers "only" baptism to paedobaptism. It is an interesting transition.

I think a lot has to do with perspective. If you decide that baptism must be understood from a New Testament only vantage point you will ALWAYS come out on the side of believers only. If you see it from a whole bible/covenant vantage point, then you will more than likely lean to the paedobaptist position.

I will get my Baptist friends 10 points showing that there is no link between baptism and circumcision, and my responses and post them in a few days.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
littleapologist said:
so do people that believe in infant baptism also believe in believers baptism?

Of course, IF you mean by believer's baptism those who have not been baptised into a Christian Church and have come to a true knowledge of Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Saviour.

My Children are born into the Covenant. I am not an anabaptist. My children (I have 4) should not be rebaptised even if they should have an "experiance" later. Their baptism is valid no mater when the Lord might make it effectual.

In Christ,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0

Beoga

Sola Scriptura
Feb 2, 2004
3,362
225
Visit site
✟27,181.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Cajun Huguenot said:
Of course, IF you mean by believer's baptism those who have not been baptised into a Christian Church and have come to a true knowledge of Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Saviour.

My Children are born into the Covenant. I am not an anabaptist. My children (I have 4) should not be rebaptised even if they should have an "experiance" later. Their baptism is valid no mater when the Lord might make it effectual.

In Christ,
Kenith

so if/when God brings your children to a saving knowledge of him, you don't believe that they need to baptised again?
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟28,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Good discussions - and one very relavant for myself - as I have a baby on the way - due date = 9 February!

Let me preface this by saying I am very very new to understanding and accepting the nuts and bolts of reformed theology. I was raised an Episcopalian till I was about 13 years old (baptised an infant then confirmed later) - then my folks left the Episcopal church and started getting heavily involved in a faith movement church (Benny Hinn was the pastor) which subsequently led to my abondoning and rejecting Christianity altogether for a brief time (long story for another time). While in my early 20s I was "saved" in a Baptist church. Not long after being saved my wife and I moved from the area we were living in and started attending an Assembly of God church. While attending that church I was baptised "again" - since I rejected all forms of infant baptism at that point in my early faith. After rejecting the AOG's doctrines of speaking in toungues to evidence the baptism in the Holy Spirit and more essentially their own denial of eternal security for the believer we left that denomination and have been in the Baptist church ever since. For the past 3 years I have been heavily studying the doctrine of eternal security (perseverence of the saints) which has caused me to subsequently stumble into Reformed theology - through which I eventually saw the logic, solid reason and most importantly the scriptural support for predestination, regeneration, election, TULIP, etc., etc.

This past Christmas my wife got me the "Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible" which has really caused me to think about infant baptism since it contains the Westminster Confession of Faith. Normally I wouldn't be too enamored with it since myself, my wife, and both of my boys are all baptised - but like I said I have a baby on the way - so now its suddenly an issue. I am also now considering my baptism as an infant in the Episcopal church to be my "actual" baptism after studying the issue in some detail.

Ah what am I to do? Since I go to a reformed baptist church now - I'm kind of in a tough spot should I truly come to accept infant baptism!

Anyway - thanks for the discussions on this issue - for someone in a struggle on what the right thing to do these threads help me out a lot.

As a side note - before really accepting Christ I really wanted to be married in a church (since I believed in God at least). The only church that would marry us in our home town at the time was a Presbyterian Church! Amazing how God's providence is - isn't it! I had no clue what the PCA church was about at the time - and now it looks like I'm more Prespyterian than ever! :)
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
littleapologist said:
so if/when God brings your children to a saving knowledge of him, you don't believe that they need to baptised again?

littleapologist and Behe's Boy,

Thank you both so much for your posts and question.

I believe rebaptism would be akin to re-circumcision :)cry: ouch). I think they symbolise is the same thing for both and the represent the same thing. Though one is pre Christ and the other is post Christ. I have seven more point to answer that MrWonder brought up. I hope that they will shed more light on this topic.

I too was baptised as a baby, as a Roman Catholic. My family left eht Catholic Church just befor I was to make my First Communion. Then I was raised Southern Baptism. I thought the whole idea of infant baptism was a silly notion and no more than a Roman Catholic hang over that some
"liberal" protestants still held on to.


Now I believe it is very biblical.

I hope to post the next set of MrWonder's points/counter point on this topic after CoffeeSwirl has had a chance to look at the other thread.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0

Cajun Huguenot

Cajun's for Christ
Aug 18, 2004
3,055
293
65
Cajun Country
Visit site
✟4,779.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Knight said:
Cajun,

You believe and support infant baptism. This I get.

Do you believe it to be essential?

I believe that ordinarily it is an essential part of Salvation. Now I mustsay but, and the "but" here is tied to the word "ordinarily" In the Westminster Confession of Faith's (WCF) section on baptism we read:
V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it, or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

We see something related to your question WCF XXV:2. Here we read:
The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children; and is the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ; the house and family of God, through which men are ordinarily saved and union with which is essential to their best growth and service.

All those in the church have been baptised. If you are not baptised, than you are not a member of Christ Church. And this alone is where salvation is found (ordinarily). There can be, and there have been exceptions to this rule, but I think they are rare. The Thief of the Cross comes to mind as the first of these exceptions.

So, must some one recieve water baptism? There are rare and limited circumstances where the believers may come to Christ, and not receive this important sacrament before they die, but I think it is rare indeed.

I hope I have answered the question.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Kenith
 
Upvote 0

AndOne

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
Apr 20, 2002
7,477
462
Florida
✟28,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I guess my biggest hang-up with infant baptism at this point is that I believe you can be baptised as an infant but then later reject Christianity in your life - which indicates to me an absense of salvation - particularly in the case of the non-elect. The question here is ultimately - do we want to bestow the sacrament of baptism to the unregenerate?

I'm sorry but a person cannot communicate his or her own salvation (being chosen) as an infant. So couldn't we as parents be playing a type of spiritual roulete when we have our infants baptised? Although we hope and pray diligently for the best - we have no way of knowing the true calling of our children until they are older. Which brings me to my next point - that since we don't know the status of our infants eternally why do we assume them to be saved and have them baptised? It seems more logical to me that the sacrament of baptism should be the choice of the individual and not his or her parents.

Now - I do not reject infant baptism - for those who are truly saved. In fact I fully accept it. I believe the sacramant holds the same meaning for both infants and adults - and I certainly do not believe it is an essential to salvation (as the Westminster Confession confirms). To the infant who is baptised and is unregenerate however - it means nothing and is useless - and I have issues when it comes to dispensing the sacraments to the unsaved, wheather it be communion or baptism.

I'm still studying the issue - so I do not completely have my mind made up on the issue - but you can see how I am currently leaning.
 
Upvote 0