Some struggles and questions

Welcome, Jonatan! Good to have you here! Congratulations on your relationship with the Lord.

The first thing I would point out is that Jesus actually is God. There are three disctinct persons within the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In order to understand this better, simply thke three separate keyrings, and link them together. Three, but one.

jonatan said:

For starters: should I take the bible literaly? I found an article, written by an atheist, about wrong things in the Bible. F.e. how Jesus disapproves of violence but goes out of control in the temple. Or how he says you will be punished for saying "you fool" while he uses this word himself again at the templescene I think (I haven't read enough bibleverses to fully support these statements, and I don't feel for looking up the link to the article). My point is, it doesn't take a genius to spot some contradictions in the Bible.

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Well, the first thing I would recommend is to get a really good grasp of the Bible. Who writes the article is going to make a big difference in whether or not the person really is qualified to tell you these things. An athesit is not, and would only write such an article with hopes of brushing God's authority off his back, which he can't do. It's a waste of time.

But that may all ring hollow without answering your questions. I'll answer the literality one last, because it is more indepth. As for the violence situation, there are two types: holy, and unholy. And God is the one who discerns which is which. And God has the right to do so with what He made. There is no contradiction here. God is harsh with sin, as He should and has every right to be. There's a differnce between man's sinful violence, which is nothing more than petty, self-seeking passion, and zeal for righteousness, carried out in a manner authorized by God, such as the death penalty for murder. But even rulers can abuse their power. In short, there's a difference the author of the article failed to mention.
Jesus is God-read John chapter one.

As for calling someone a fool, God alone has the authority to do that. We are all sinners. He is holy, and we are His creation.

Another thing, through history the bible has been altered by the catholics. There is proof of this, I heard. What I'm wondering, to what extent is the Bible still reliable

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The Catholic bible does have a couple of extra books. PM me and I'd be happy to discuss these things further with you. The Bible is reliable, but there are differnt types of scripture and they need to be read in different ways. For example, there is some very deep symbolism in apocolyptic scripture, such as the book of Revelation. There is a very literal truth to it, but there is symbolism too. You don't find this in the wisdom literature, such as Proverbs or Ecclesiastes. More later.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

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I must leave now, I will finish this post at a later time
feel free to comment so far

take care[/QUOTE]

Hi there!




Welcome to the forums....

jonatan said:

For starters: should I take the bible literaly?


Yes, unless there is some reason that the passage cannot be taken literally




I found an article, written by an atheist, about wrong things in the Bible. F.e. how Jesus disapproves of violence but goes out of control in the temple.


That is called "righteous indignation"....





Or how he says you will be punished for saying "you fool" while he uses this word himself again at the templescene I think (I haven't read enough bibleverses to fully support these statements, and I don't feel for looking up the link to the article). My point is, it doesn't take a genius to spot some contradictions in the Bible.


If you have questions concerning particular passages, there is a forum on Bible exposition.


Another thing, through history the bible has been altered by the catholics. There is proof of this, I heard. What I'm wondering, to what extent is the Bible still reliable?


The Bible is reliable. The Catholics have not altered the Bible. The Old Testament is still the same after 2000 years. The discovery of the DSS after 2 millenia have show very minor difference in today's Old Testament compared to the Scriptures of the first century.


The manuscripts of the New Testament witness each other. The Catholic Church did not change the manuscripts... perhaps the interpretation... but one cannot "change" the original text of manuscripts. Translators go back to the best available manuscripts,.... not the best available information provided by the Roman church.






Also, I'm having general troubles believing in the supernatural. I know I want to but I find it difficult. I know I am on the right path but somewhere something is stopping me. What I have found out is that it is way easier to climb out of a pit to the top of the ladder, than starting at the middle. By this I mean that I don't really need God in the way that I need something to hold on to, or so one could say. Because my life is wonderful.


I guarantee you that your wonderful life will find pitfalls sooner or later. Apparently, Christ is not first in your life, else you would know that you DID need Him and that you are nothing on your own.



And don't let all of this fool you, I am an incredibly happy person who loves life and love. I just want to find out what I believe in.

-- thanks, jonatan

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Hello Jonatan....

You need God more than you realize... If you want to be closer to God, then it is you that needs to be moving... God isn't changing His position. Stay in the Word of God, both by reading it and by studying the text. And, stay in tune with God in fervent prayer.


~serapha~

But, I've met so many people that have talked to God, have been touched by Jesus or are filled with the Holy Spirit. I feel a weird jaelousy towards them. Somewhere I expect to get a sign, a feeling, or a word from God, but I also know it's not going to come. Because I ask for it out of curiousity, not out of faith.

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not really.. there're many cases of atheists asking tentatively and God has answered. Your being here to ask and receive answers is not a coincident, i reckon.

Welcome to CF.

jonatan said:

But something bothered me in your post, whitehorse. Do you believe death sentence is an act by God?

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Well, here's the situation. It is far worse to suffer eternal torment than to have a bad life here. While we're here, we are in a state of grace. So, God wants evil cleansed from the earth as an example to those who do wrong. As it is written:

Matthew 26:52

26:52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Likewise:

Romans 13:2-4

13:2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Why would he punish people on earth, I could see why, but then why does he punish only a few and let's others live and continue their evil deeds? I might just be misunderstanding what you wrote.

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He has a purpose. We don't always know what it is; sometimes He lets them become evil but spares them later so we can see how great His grace is. Other times He may let evil grow because He is going to cleanse a nation or because He has given it over to its wickedness. We don't always se,, ut if someone does something worthy of the death penalty, we need to remember that.

Some other thing that made me wonder. My religion teacher in my old school told me once that he was learning Hebrew with a group of his friends and they had bible interpretation meetings. He said that in Hebrew many words have several meanings and that most of the old testament can be interpreted in many ways. This was before I took any interest in religion and it was a long while ago so I might have left out some facts on this one. But I sometimes wonder.

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This is true that words can have any of several meanings. So we look at context and sometimes historical situatiion to see what God really was saying there. We have to leave our predispositions and preconceptions behind, because many times we miss the great er meaning. I'll give you an example in my next post. But the truth is there. Many people come to the Bible in the wrong way, not to see what God says, but to look for support or a loophole for something they want to do or believe. ANd that's where 99% of the translation problems are, not in the text itself.

Oh, no-the living translation! I'd not use that one. I was given a copy as my first Bible, and it is so inaccurate. It isn't even a translation, but a paraphrasing. The problem with it is, it isn't what the Bible says, and the second is, God often reveals things through a much deeper level than a perusal of the surface meaning, which is what TLB tries to repsent.
Better translations are The Reformation Bible, The King James Bible, and The New International Version. Better to use an online lexicon and concordance. Strong's is good.

But now for the questions you presented.

Jesus never said, "Not mine."

Luke 22:70

22:70Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

At this point I need to explain something to you about Bible translations. There are generally three types of translations. Now, what manuscripts were translated is another issue, but let's look at the three different types, because I think it will help you understand the passage better.

1. Literal. This is a word-for-word translation of the manuscript. The problem is, there are huge differences between the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible and our language, both in grammar and in expressions that were known to the ancient community but are not used in ours. So, the Bible should have the word-for-word since it is God's word, and use footnotes to explain what it likely means. However, since many don't, it's best to get a good commentary. I recommend Matthre Henry's commentary. Easy to understand and faithful.

2. Dynamic Equivalent: this doesn't go word for word, but it translates the Bible according to what it meant, since the scholors should be familiar enough with both languages and the grammar differences to help us out. Problem: they've already removed us one step from what the Bible actually says, and we have to trust that there wasn't something in that text they didn't see. Still, these can be very helpful

3. Free Translation: a paraphrasing that tried to make the text readable, but is not faithful to the original text. The Living Bible falls into this category.

The reason this is necessary is because the King James Version is a literal translation. So Jesus's words in Luke 22:70 would be spoken differently in our language. It would be rendered, Ye say, that I am.

In other words, "As you say, that is what I am." In other words, he affirmed it. But there are grammatical differences between Greek and English and the translation was word-for-word, not accounting for those differences.

Thank you for your answers so far, they have been very helpful. Although I still can't find myself anywhere near agreeing that death penalty can be just. It's still murder in my eyes. Doesn't Jesus teach us about second chances and forgiveness? How do we know that an evil person will never come to turn and give his life to Jesus if we end his life and not even give him the chance to do so?

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You're very welcome. It's all the Lord's providence; I'm His unworthy servant. I'm glad the information is useful to you.

The problem with eliminating the death penalty as described in Romans is that sin spreads. And if someone did something to merit the death penalty, that says they are far, far gone and in all likelihood, they will never be restored. It happens sometimes, but if it's God's will to spare them, He will do it. But there are two sides to God: mercy, and justice. If allowed to continue even after having done somehitng as serious as killing a person, that sin will spread and the innocent victims will die, possibly without a chance to repent of their sins. And those who follow after the example of the murderer, seeing that no real harm came to him dor his sin, others will do the same and lose their souls. That's why God says,

Romans 13:2-4

13:2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

It says the unlawful will suffer eternal torment. So if people are emboldened by the murderer who is not punished, many will lose their eternities on account of that person.

hi jonathan! glad to hear you're grabbing on to something solid. Hey if u have any questions, feel free to pm me. I'll be excited to help in any way i can.

jonatan said:

I've been trying to pray and I've been asking God for guidance. If he is there I want to know him. But I admit I am in severe doubt. But why does he not answer? I have come to the point where it probably will not take much to really start believing but I don't think I can do it on my own. Is there anything I can do to find our what I have to do with my life? What the Lord wants me to do with my life?
I know I am very uneducated but I am thorougly conviced that if what the bible says is true, then I want to be part of it. That I want to give up my sinful life...

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Hi jonatan,



That "severe doubt" is probably standing in your way of being reconciled to God.


Salvation is a free gift, but it has to be accepted when it is offered. God is offering you the opportunity of a life time... the forgiveness of your sins AND eternal life... But it takes an act of "faith".


Keep reading the Bible, and know that every word there is true. When you know that the Word of God is true, then you can know that what God offers you is absolute also. Then, take the offer by "faith". That is when the head knowledge that you have learned from the Word of God matches the heart knowledge of faith. That's when the reality sets in and the "severe doubts" will be gone.

Is there anything I can do to find our what I have to do with my life? What the Lord wants me to do with my life?

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Once you accept what Jesus has done for you ask for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead, guide and direct you. If God brings you to it, He'll bring you through it... and where God guides, God provides.


~serapha~

jonatan said:

I've been trying to pray and I've been asking God for guidance. If he is there I want to know him.

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Congratualtions! That's wonderful!

But I admit I am in severe doubt. But why does he not answer?

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Friend, here's some good news: there are lots of ways to strengthen this, and God will help you. First, let's start at the beginning. Have you asked Jesus Christ to come into your heart, and to be your personal Lord and Savior? Secondly, when God doesn't answer, it usually means He wants you to guide your faith in another direction. Typically, the new Christian will want the Lord to reveal His love through signs. We all go through this initial stage. But then, God wants you to put your faith in Hsi word. because there are spiritual battles we enter into as Christians, and faith in God's word is what keeps us standing in those. So that's the next stage God leads us through, is to make sure we're putting our faith directly in His word. If you feel like you want to talk about the doubts, maybe I can help. In my own journey, I've probably been through them all.

I have come to the point where it probably will not take much to really start believing but I don't think I can do it on my own.

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You're right about both.

Is there anything I can do to find our what I have to do with my life? What the Lord wants me to do with my life?

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Yes. I will say this: Goe is more concerned with the spiritual than the practical. He will take care of where you end up-all He wants you to worry about is following after Him. Pray, and ask the Lord to guide your steps, closing and opening doors according to His will, and then believe He will, and He will do it. He usually doesn't tell us where we're going, but He does make sure we end up there if we ask His will. Very important to pray for that, by the way. I found out the hard way.

I know I am very uneducated but I am thorougly conviced that if what the bible says is true, then I want to be part of it. That I want to give up my sinful life...

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You are a part of it. Welcome to the family!

Dear Johatan,

I encourage you to read the Gospel of John in a translation like the New American Standard Updated or the New International Version of the Bible. I am including a portion of that book for you to read, here, so you can see the important information in it. To become a member of God's family, a person must be born again. Jesus, Himself, talks about this in the scripture, below.

To be born again the Bible teaches us that a person must understand that Jesus Christ the son of God who came in the flesh; that He was without sin and therefore could satisfy God's requirement for holiness; that the wage of sin is death and that all men are sinners; and that Jesus Christ chose to die for all the sins of all mankind and for your sin, personally. After you read the book of John prayerfully, you should have no problem believing these things.

Then, pray to Jesus, thanking Him for giving you such a wonderful gift of salvation by faith:

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith [in Jesus]; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

And then accept the gift of salvation. If you are sincere in this prayer, you will be born into the family of God. Like any newborn, you will need food to grow. The Bible is the 'food' for Christians, so spend as much time as possible reading the Bible to learn all about your new life. If you need help, many Christians on this forum will help you.

Praying for you as you continue your journey,

Bondservant by Grace

John 3:3-18
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
NASU

The New International Version is probably a good one for you. It's a dynamic equivalent. It's not perfect, but it's quite good. I would recommend the Concordia Study Bible. It has an introduction to each book telling who authored it, why it was written (very important), it has an outline which makes the context easier to understand, it has historical information, it has footnotes that explain hard cerses (although it's always a good idea to think it through for yourself, because there are a few spots where I'm not sure about their insight, but usually it's good,), there are cross-references, which means that in the center of each page, it tells you where you can find verses throughout the Bible on the same subject, it has a concordance in the back which means if you just remember a word, you can look that word up in the back, and it will tell you all the verses where it appears...it's a good thing to have. Also a short commentary by Martin Luther on each book. The Concordia Publishing House sells it.

http://shop.cph.org/Category.pasp?txtCatalog=CPHProduct&txtCategory=Concordia+Self-Study+Bible

Just a side-note: if you get the real leather instead of the bonded leather, it will last you virtually forever.

Some other things you will eventually want:

A good concordance that matches the Bible translation you decide to buy
A good commentary or two, that explains the scriptures (Matthew Henry and Matthew Poole are good)
You can use an online lexicon, but if you study away from the computer, you may want one so you can decide whether or not the translation is worthy. It has the words in the original language; you look them up by verse. Very useful.

Some tips for studying:

The Bible has no errors. But sometimes we see a couple of verses and we don't know how they can fit together. The answer is always in the text; use a commentary or look closely at the text. What we often try to do is to pit scripture against scripture. For example, can you lose your salvation or not? There are verses that seem to make a case for each. So instead of picking one or the other, pray and ask the Lord to help you piece together how all those scriptures fit together. No verse can make a case against any other verse.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

jonatan said:

A lot happened this weekend... I went to a trip in the Norwegian Lofoten with some other exchange students, and Dennis (have I told you about Dennis?) brought his bible. We spent some time reading verses and discussing back and forth on this wonderful trip. It was incredible.

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Welcome back Jonatan! It's great that you enjoyed your experience.

I started reading a lot more in the bible at idle moments and it is wonderful (just read a bunch of Genesis and the old Covenant).

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Good habit!

I've been praying for a few nights in a row now but it's so hard to strengthen my belief. Nothing happens, I still haven't felt anything that I heard described by so many people (believers) here.

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God doesn't always use our feelings. Sometimes He does, but more often, He pulls back and gives us the opportunity to grow. He comforts us after a period of growth, but you won't always feel it. God wants us to accept Him solely on His says, and there are things we can do to increase faith.

Here are a couple of secrets:

Colossians 3:12-14

3:12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

3:13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel F15 against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

3:14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Where the word charity is used, it refers to love. ANd love interconnects all these graces. But it also is interconnected to faith. So by loving God and man, your faith will grow. As it is written:The NIV translates verse 14 this way:

And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them together in perfect unity.

There is a very good book that you may enjoy, called Charity and its Fruits by Jonathan Edwards. I highly recommen it, and the reading isn't hard.

I want to feel Jesus in my heart and I want to tell him what to do with my life. I really want to believe. I want to give my life to Jesus. If he was raised from the dead after three days I want to Know that and believe it.

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These are really great goals! I'm impressed that you have them. Here are things that can help: Attend to all the means of grace. THis means Bible reading, fellowship with other believers, church attendance if you are able, prayer, fasting, etc. These will increase your faith, which actually comes from God.

Romans 10:17

10:17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Here is another that shows that faith is a gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8

2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By walking in His ways, we receive more faith.

I've been praying out loud a lot, in words and different languages (mainly because I use three languages actively atm) just because I like straightening out my stream of thoughts, even though He probably already knows what I'm going to tell him.

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Wow! Three languages! That's awesome. I like to pray out loud, too, for that same reason.

"It's hard but Jesus never said it was easy, did he" - Dennis

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Amen.

It would be nice to hear about when God touched your life for the first time and how it felt. I really want this to happen. I'm moving back to Belgium soon and I almost don't know any Christians there so it's gonna be so hard if I only have one foot on the step.

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You're right-having other believers to support you is a very good idea, and it's good you're thinking of this ahead of time. Try to keep a lookout for godly people, but if you don't find any at first, don't worry. God will take care of His own. As long as you believe and follow in His ways, He will see to it that you get what you need. The important thing is using what He gives you.

My story is a long one. It would be a delight to share it with you. Maybe I can share it tomorrow when I have more time. Glad you're back!

jonatan said:

It would be nice to hear about. Dennis also told me that it will, as all things do, take time and patience. Maybe I've been trying so hard to achieve that I forgot what I was doing. I'm not giving up though.

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It's true-it takes time and patience. There are many stages you'll walk through. And it's the reason God made us. Please don't ever give up. Your soul is the only thing you get to keep.

Here's another one:
In Jeremiah, God destroys a village because they refused to believe in him, repeatedly. Why? This doesn't make any sense. 1. God is loving, 2. people dó have free will, 3. people deserve second chances and more...
Even if they would never have given in, why did he not let them live their life of sin and make them pay for it in the afterlife?

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Well, God is loving, but He is also completely just. We don't accept Him; we receive Him on His terms. After all, He is God.

We don't actually deserve anything. We all deserve hell. But hell is far worse than discipline here. If we receive it here, we can repent and decide we don't want that. But in the afterlife, there is no repentance, and forever is a mighty long time. The soul is eternal. So while it is more merciful for people to suffer here, this applies only to the saints because those who do not receive Christ do not receive eternal life. So why the destruction of the cities? 1) They deserved it and 2) Out of mercy for those who would see the destruction of the cities and repent as a result, so their souls could be saved. The destruction provides a striking and visible example to us that God is love, but part of love is justice.

Trust me-if you lived an any of those cities that were destroyed, you'd see the lawlessness and crime and you'd agree that what God did was just. But it's sad, I agree. It's never easy to see.

Yesterday, I promised you a bit about my story:

When I was young our family didn't attend church much. We didn't have Christ in our home. The kids next door did, though. One day, those kids asked me if we went to church every Sunday. But the context for the question was an argument which always led to stupid things like this. And, I wanted to protect our family so I said yes. But that wasn't true, actually.

Ridden with guilt, I immediately ran into the house and told my father that I had told a lie. I told him precisely what I said and why. He was so kind with me. He brushed my hair away from my face and said, "That's okay, because it's true now. Because we're going to church every Sunday from now on." So we went to church every Sunday afterward, all because my father wanted to purge my lie. And that's how God works, too. I really think that was God's Holy Spirit working in my father that day. So you see, God really does use any and every situation-he saved me through a lie, of all things.

Well, the church wasn't a very good one, I'm afraid, but it did get a Bible into my hands, and I did have a good Sunday school teacher. The Lord gave me the grace to fully put my trust in Him. That was very important because what they were teaching upstairs in the sanctuary left a lot to be desired. Anyway, the Lord is never thwarted in His purposes. By His gracious providence, my father's boss was a Christian and he recommended a school for me to attend. There I met the right people and learned sound doctrine, plus God used it to sharpen my thinking.

There were several occasions, the details I like to keep between the Lord and me, where God made it clear He was really, really looking out for me. And this continues to this day. That floors me. Why is He so kind? I have nothing to boast about, except that I am simply a sinner saved by grace. I am a burning stick snatched from the flames, by the grace of Jehovah. And of course, I had nothing to do with it. Just, one day God in Heaven had mercy on a kid who told a lie. That's pretty much it.