Some stats

[Alexis OCA]

Something to ponder.

Active Priests:
1965 - 58,000
2002 - 45,000

Ordinations:
1965 - 1,575
2002 - 450

Priestless Parishes:
1965 - 549 (about 1%)
2002 - 2,928 (about 15%)

Seminarians:
1965 - 49,000
2002 - 4,700

Sisters:
1965 - 180,000
2002 - 75,000

Brothers:
1965 - 12,000
2002 - 5,700

Jesuits:
1965 - 5,277
2002 - 3,172

Franciscans:
1965 - 2,534
2002 - 1,492

Christian Brothers:
1965 - 2,434
2002 - 959

Redemptorists:
1965 - 1,148
2002 - 349

Catholic High Schools:
1965 - 1,566
2002 - 786

Catholic High School Students:
1965 - 700,000
2002 - 386,000

Parochial Grade Schools:
1965 - 10,504
2002 - 6,623

Parochial Grade School Students:
1965 - 4.5 million
2002 - 1.9 million

Infant Baptisms:
1965 - 1.3 million
2002 - 1 million

Adult Baptisms (conversions):
1965 - 126,000
2002 - 80,000

Catholic Marriages:
1965 - 352,000
2002 - 256,000

Annulments:
1965 - 338
2002 - 50,000

Regular Mass Attendance - study #1:
1958 - 74% of Catholics (Gallup Pole)
1994 - 26.6% (Notre Dame study)

Regular Mass Attendance - Fordham University study:
1965 - 65% of Catholics
2000 - 25%

Misc. (source, National Catholic Reporter)
77% believe Catholics don't have to attend Mass on Sunday
65% believe Catholics can divorce and remarry
53% believe Catholics can have an abortion
10% accept the Church's teaching on birth control (source, Notre Dame poll)
70% believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Our Lord (New York Times poll)

(Source: Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II, by Michael Davies, TAN Books, copyright 2003)

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Greg for your statistics to mean any thing you need provide a source and include more then two points of data

 

[Roald]

Um...

For instance, there are about 1300 Catholic High Schools in this country as of 2004. Either the number almost doubled in two years, or your data is off.

 

[Roald]

From the National Catholic Education Association:

641,334 students are in Catholic high schools in 2004.

 

[Roald]

Um...

For instance, there are about 1300 Catholic High Schools in this country as of 2004. Either the number almost doubled in two years, or your data is off.

1,228 to be precise.

 

[Alexis OCA]

Well its good to know those numbers are off. Let's hope they are as innacurate across the board.

 

[ps139]

Greg, these numbers are just for America, right?
I know that in Africa, orthodox Catholicism is spreading like wildfire!

 

[Alexis OCA]

Greg, these numbers are just for America, right?

I believe so. I've edited the post to include some things I originally left out including the source. I cannot of course vouch for their accuracy.

 

[Axion]

I don't think attacking the accuracy of the statistics is that useful

The point is that the trend they are monitoring is well known. Burying heads in the sand will not change that.

The point is that since Vatican II the church in the developed world: N. America, Europe, Australia etc. (and in some parts of Latin America) has been in visible decline in many ways. The number of new Priests and Religious has dropped markedly and massively. Mass attendance has fallen overall. Knowledge and belief of the Catholic Faith has dropped among Catholics. In many parts of the Americas large numbers of ill-catechised Catholics are being poached by Protestant fundamentalist groups who DO know their faith and DO have ministers in every congregation.

What do we do about this? That's what we need to discuss. We know that the Catholic Faith when properly taught, is one that inspires and motivates people. So what can be done to get things right again?

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

And I don't think attacking VAtician II is that usefull either.

I would argue the one must first prove that the trend began the day Vatician II was signed before one could blame this on a council lead by the Holy Spirit. In fact if it wasn't for Vatician II you proably see a worse trend.

This trend is caused by several things a major change in curtual that started before/around the same time.

Its also fasly magnified and applied to the whole church by those who have a gruge against Vatician II and others who want the church to be in decline.

While there are some who want us to belive the whole church in the United States is in ruins and being trumpled its not.

The church hasd aslways gone through periods of declines and the Holy Spirt has allways pathed the way to renewal.

The gates of hell will not previal.
If you want to do something go to Adoration pray for the protection and guidnce of the Holy Spirt. If God wants you to do more he will call you.

 

[Paul S]

Maybe Vatican II itself isn't to blame, but "the spirit of Vatican II" hasn't helped.

I do think cultural changes are a big reason - society's becoming a lot less religious, especially in the US and Europe - but if Vatican II was supposed to be a big renewal of the Church, it hasn't worked yet. Maybe in another 50 or 100 years, it will.

 

[Axion]

And I don't think attacking VAtician II is that usefull either.

I'm not attacking Vatican II, I'm pointing out that this is the time when the bad trends started to kick in with great force. I would not blame VII itself, but the many Liberal and protestantising changes brought in in the "spirit" of Vatican II.

I would argue the one must first prove that the trend began the day Vatician II was signed before one could blame this on a council lead by the Holy Spirit. In fact if it wasn't for Vatician II you proably see a worse trend.

It is quite clear that the big loss of priests and religious came in the sixties following Vatican II. This was also the time when disciplines like fasting were reduced to virtually nil, and catechesis of young people got awful.

This trend is caused by several things a major change in curtual that started before/around the same time.

Yes. but unfortunately "sixties" culture

Its also fasly magnified and applied to the whole church by those who have a gruge against Vatician II and others who want the church to be in decline.

While there are some who want us to belive the whole church in the United States is in ruins and being trumpled its not.

No. But there is a major problem, with churches closing and attendances declining. Something needs to be done

 

[PeterPaul]

Goodness, after reading this thread, one would think we all are blind to what is happening around us. I think psychologists call it denial.

I have a question. Was there a movement on the part of German and French clergy and liberal theolgians to write Vatican II? Or was it misinterpreted after the fact?

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Maybe Vatican II itself isn't to blame, but "the spirit of Vatican II" hasn't helped.

I do think cultural changes are a big reason - society's becoming a lot less religious, especially in the US and Europe - but if Vatican II was supposed to be a big renewal of the Church, it hasn't worked yet. Maybe in another 50 or 100 years, it will.

Many things have been done in "the Spirt of the Bible" also.
That dosn't mean the Bible was a bad thing.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

And I don't think attacking VAtician II is that usefull either.

I would argue the one must first prove that the trend began the day Vatician II was signed before one could blame this on a council lead by the Holy Spirit. In fact if it wasn't for Vatician II you proably see a worse trend.

This trend is caused by several things a major change in curtual that started before/around the same time.

Its also fasly magnified and applied to the whole church by those who have a gruge against Vatician II and others who want the church to be in decline.

While there are some who want us to belive the whole church in the United States is in ruins and being trumpled its not.

The church hasd aslways gone through periods of declines and the Holy Spirt has allways pathed the way to renewal.

The gates of hell will not previal.
If you want to do something go to Adoration pray for the protection and guidnce of the Holy Spirt. If God wants you to do more he will call you.

 

[vrunca]

For those of you who went on the March for Life you probably can agree with me on this....I saw more young priests, seminarians, nuns and other religious that I have ever seen in my lifetime! I have been on the march before and gone to the rallies, but never ever have I seen so many. I just truly feel that God is hard at work gathering new shepherds and more and more young people are responding! Praise God!!

 

[Freedom&Light]

I think that we are in the midst of a cultural change. More and more younger people are looking for more orthodox churches that have stood for righteousness for a long time- look at the number of 16 year olds we have here at OBOB converting! So while there is a definately cultural move towards liberallism, there is also a counterforce towards Christ and His Church. I think praying for the next generation is vital. Really great things could come from their ranks.