Some Rough Questions

[ano123]

Warning, Don't read this below if you don't want to talk about hell/depressing stuff.
I don't want to lower anyone's spirit.





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This has bothered me horribly for many years (even making it very hard for me to sleep many nights). I was saved at a young age, but I never knew hell was eternal until I heard my dad read a passage several years later that said hell was eternal when I was a young teen. That shocked me, I always had this vision as a child that you are tortured for a certain amount of time until you have a second death of your spiritual body, and then you soul is gone forever (no more suffering) just like a deer, fish, or any wild animal dies (gone forever, no more suffering). I wanted to get saved because hell seemed bad from what my parent taught me. So I felt good as a kid knowing I should be saved, but if there was a small chance I was not saved and God never heard my prayer, then I felt it would probably be pretty bad to be tortured, but again I thought I would have a second death of the spiritual body and everything would go black with 'no more' just like a wild animal, so I felt ok about that. (Not knowing as a kid the whole time there is really no words to describe hell. Horrendous and doomed is putting it lightly)


So after years of thinking about this, my thoughts have turned into anger, depression, and confusion. As a young adult I still go to church since my parents want me to (even though I have social anxiety). But I have not personally read the Bible to my self in a few years because these issues have depressed me enough that I would rather do other things to keep my mind mostly off of this depressing stuff (whether it be sinful things or not, but I still ask for forgiveness each day in a sad trapped kind of way hoping God hears me and won't get mad at me for questioning stuff in the Bible like hell), but I can't shake off the anger/depression. That's why I'm posting here so maybe someone has an answer to my questions below (but maybe no one in the world has a good answer to my questions).

So the most horribly depressing thing to me is why did God even create the first humans if God knew (even before human creation) that only some people will go to heaven, and the majority of people on earth (probably like 70 to 90%) will be tortured in hell for eternity? Why even create people if it was God's will that no ones goes to hell??? It seems pretty simple to me to just never start the first humans in the beginning, then there would have been no one in hell ever. God would have been perfectly fine without people, and that's a fact.

This obliviously means that it was a plan that God would allow most humans to go to hell to be torture for eternity, and God created and keeps hell together and alive for some reason I don't know. Why does God not allow all the spirits/souls in hell to simple burn out instead of keeping them alive in hell to suffer for eternity?

So does this mean that I have to accept that it was God's plan (even before human creation) to torture most of humanity for eternity in hell?? Help, this is driving me mad!

I don't believe I will ever have total peace again (like I did when I was a kid) until I get this settled (if I ever can).
If hell lasted just millions of years, billions, or even a googol amount of years, I would be super happy with peace knowing it was finite, and not eternal. The reason I would have peace is because I don't know how anyone can be 110% sure if they are truly saved unless God personally sent an angel or sent some miraculous event to confirm permanent salvation to me. And I would be also be extra happy knowing that most of the would would not be tortured eternally. Even to the worst criminals I would never wish for them to be tortured eternally, because one second in hell would convert them into a priest if there was a small chance they could come back to Earth. But the Bible says it's eternal, and again this drives me mad. It's even more disheartening knowing that some people go to hell just because they are mislead about salvation, even though they are really nice and loving part of humanity on Earth.

But the eternal aspect of hell is so heavy on my mind, I sometimes feel like my head will explode.
I had what is termed medically as "night terrors" when I was a kid and those had the most horrendous, low, and doomed feelings you could ever imagine (being trapped and forced to do impossible tasks over and over in my mind with total confusion and chaos), I would twist up in my bed sheets as my heart was pounding out of my chest, with sweating, and not being able to wake up. When I would finally awaken it was the most blissful and heavenly feeling realizing it was not real and I was ok.
So I imagine hell is trillions of times worse.





Bible reference to what I posted above:
Only a few go to heaven and most go to hell:
Matthew 7:13 and 14
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

God wants all to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:3 and 4
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has always known the future:
Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Psalm 33;11
"But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations."
Proverbs 19:21
"Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails."


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One more thing, I don't believe in calvinism because to me God places the soul/spirit in a human right after conception in my belief. Thus People choosing to have kids are the ones that made a hell bound person in my option, because if God made that person it would mean calvinism is true. But since sex is a human freewill choice from God calvinism is false. Again I just don't know why God started humans in the beginning if God knew most would go to hell before God made humans.

So I think having kids is a huge giant eternal risk for possibly creating a hell bound person if they were to rebel as teenager/young adults (which is a big reason why I don't want kids).


I know a lot of this maybe hard to sink in, and I apologize if I offended or depressed anyone (because I'm not trying to do that), I'm just looking for maybe some good answers, because again this stuff just makes me extremely sad, and feel hopeless for peace.

 

[98cwitr]

According to your beliefs, why does God create people who He knows will never believe then?

The answer is in Romans 9.

 

[Bluelion]

I spent many years struggling with this. It comes from your own fear you will go to hell.

Fear only God, because you so afraid of hell is making you defiant of God. Fear God who can put you in hell, not hell.

Frist, have you recognized your sinful state and your wickedness, do you see the need for God to rule your life to save you, do you accept God free gift of salvation. Do you love God in your heart? It depends on your heart. If you are in fact saved. Take faith in God and the power of him to save you.

Ok hell. Hell is the second death, you can not die again because you are dead, spiritually dead. Hell is being separate from God. God is life, so if your separated from life your what dead. Every good thing comes from God, good smells good feelings it is all from God if you are separated from God, you are separated from everything Good. so that is what hell is. It is punishment, but it is not God ways of torturing people. It simple if you reject God, you reject everything that come from him, so in the next life you get nothing from God. That means A person will smell bad, a person will not have peace, A person will not have water, food. You get the idea.

This is why we pray for those who are lost, and we try to do Gods will so as many as possible will have life after death. This is why God works and puts us to work. God is trying to save them, don't get mad at him.

Peace and Love
blu

 

[jamantc]

Why do people go to hell? Because they reject God! The Doctrines of Grace are humbling to those of us who believe them! We carry out the great commission because we long for the lost to be saved and that reflects our new heart of flesh when God replaced our former heart of stone. We do God's work because we know it pleases Him and it is His command to us to preach the Gospel to all. Why does a person in a region of the world where the gospel has not been spread hear God's word while the remaining part of that region doesn't? That person was of God's flock and those who are His know His voice. I won't argue whether Calvinism is correct or incorrect, but I will state that I know I have been saved by nothing I did to find favor with God, I was simply saved because of His Own good pleasure He chose me unto salvation and I fall prostrate in His Holy presence and tremble in reverence for His blessing upon me! Jesus is not only my Savior, but He is also my Lord and He has complete Lordship over my humble life and I submit to His sovereignty with humility, fear, and trembling for the Grace He showed a sinner like me who is deserving of hell and an eternal separation from Him. Father God thank you for my salvation and the works you have planned for me before the creation of the world as James states and as Paul states you have chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world to vessels of good for Your purpose and plan. Without Your saving grace I would be lost and unrepentant on the broad road leading to destruction. I am thankful for you mercy upon me. I know that I may rest secure in Your hands knowing nothing can snatch me from them. For as Your word sad, You drew me near by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit which You promised would dwell in those who hear Your voice. Power and glory be unto You who controls all things and knows all things before they happen and gives us peace we can rest in and know we are Yours. Amen

 

[miamited]

Hi ano,

I propose that you have a great misunderstanding of the why of 'hell' and the 'who' that will be 'punishing/tormenting' those who are there.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[retlaw]

I don't know if humanity will ever answer the "why" in many things like Hell. In the end his ways are not like our ways so we are never really going to get it. We can also go round and round with what we think of it but in the end he has all authority and we have zip.

Hell is terrible but I don't worry about it any more. Jesus gave us a free ticket to heaven. All we have to do is confess with our mouth that he is the son of God, that he died in our place on the cross. If that confession is true we will then make the word of God the authority of our life, not what we think or others but what the bible says. It's so amazingly simple once you realize no action of yours, no list of good deeds or bad deeds has any bearing on your eternal destination. That is why in the new testament it was called the "good news". They should have called it the "BEST NEWS EVER".

Two things happen when you are truly saved, you don't fear hell any more, and you're life begins to bear the fruit of the spirit. I'm not saying you turn into Mr Perfect over night, but the Holy Spirit begins to whittle away the bad things about you and replaces them with his nature. It's a lifetime process.

 

[Basil the Great]

Catholic theologian Balthazar has expressed the view that it is permissible to hope that all might be saved, but not to believe that such will certainly happen. I would like to hope for such. However, such a hope certainly flies in the face of the Athanasian Creed, which the RCC accepts, as well as New Testament teaching, especially as interpreted by Evangelical Protestantism.

 

[Petruchio]

So the most horribly depressing thing to me is why did God even create the first humans if God knew (even before human creation) that only some people will go to heaven, and the majority of people on earth (probably like 70 to 90%) will be tortured in hell for eternity? Why even create people if it was God's will that no ones goes to hell??? It seems pretty simple to me to just never start the first humans in the beginning, then there would have been no one in hell ever. God would have been perfectly fine without people, and that's a fact.

My reply is this:

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
(Rom 9:18-21)

When it comes down to it, if the scripture says that hell is eternal (and it most certainly does), then you must submit to it, and bind your own human reasoning to the superior and holy reasoning of God. Who are you, indeed, to reply against God? Must God answer to you? Are you wiser than He? Do you know all that God knows, and therefore are able to make a reasoned judgment on the matter? Are you as Holy as God, and can enter into judgment with Him and live?

It is not wrong to ask questions of God, of course, but you must get your answers out of the scripture in all humility and subjection, and not out of your own sentiments which you think are "good." And if you find the answer and do not like it, do not scorn it and wrestle in agony, but submit to God knowing that He is holy and you are not!

"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
(2Ti 3:14-17)


Secondly, you are evil. So am I. We are all evil, and outside of Jesus Christ there is no salvation for us, because we are worthy only of condemnation.

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
(Rom 3:9-12)

Third, grace is grace because it is not earned in any way, but is utterly gratuitous. In the same way, mercy cannot be mercy if you deserve it. If you deserve it, or if God is obligated in some way to give mercy, as you seem to suggest, then mercy is justice and God's judgment is injustice.

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

But if mercy is not justice, but is a free gift given to those who do not deserve it, then God can certainly choose to give it to whomever He pleases, according to His own purpose. And if God chooses to withhold that mercy, it is in judgment that He does so, since judgment is the rightful wage for the work of sin.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Therefore, all men that go to hell are sent there according to their own merits, and all men who go to heaven go there by the merits of Jesus Christ.

So, what is wrong with God sending a person to hell who deserves it? Is sin so small a thing that it only deserves a million years of punishment, as you put it, instead of a billion? Who are you to make such a judgment? How do you even do the math on that? Is lying worth a million years, but adultery is worth 20 million? But God says one sin is worthy of condemnation under the whole law:

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Who are you to argue with God over the heaviness of sin? If you understand this, then force your sentiments out of your head and submit to God. It is not for you to contradict the word of God, or to chide Him for hating sin. Seek to understand God, and pray for that understanding, but always remember your place, and His much higher and worthy place.

Your post also has many weird statements about God not possibly "hearing" your prayers. If the God you believe in is not omniscient and cannot save, what good is He? Don't sit around with this weak God of your imagination. Seek to know the true God rather than getting your information second-hand from others who shock you when they point out that damnation is eternal. Be more shocked that you did not know this already due to a lack of scripture study on your part.

Go and study the scripture for these two things:

1) The knowledge of God, His power, His goodness, His justice.

If you do not even know who God is, then you cannot possibly understand why He condemns any one to hell or saves others.

2) Yourself, your power (or lack thereof), and your nature.

If you do not know yourself, then you can never know why God works as He does with humanity. You will never know how just God is in judgment, or how merciful He is in salvation, if you do no know how much you deserve the former, and how little the latter.

This is the cure for your torturous thoughts. Nothing else will shake you out of it. And when you have learned these things, or, rather, when the Holy Spirit has taught you all things, you can rejoice with God knowing that in His infinite wisdom, He decided that it was better to bring good out of evil, than in never allowing evil to exist at all.

As for your comments on Calvinism, they strike me as coming from the same presumptions that have you so confused over damnation! Study the scripture and make your decisions from there and nowhere else. Leave your sentiments out, and remember that the wisdom of man is not the wisdom of God.

1Co_1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[OzSpen]

ano,

Welcome to Christian Forums for this your first post. You have raised sone of the toughest of tough questions about the Christian faith. I haven't experienced your exact same anguish, but my existential pain was heading in your direction at one time.

I'll share what led to a satisfactory resolution for me. These may not benefit you, but I ask you to consider them as a starter.

1. Do you want to be able to choose which food you eat daily? Do you want the freedom to be able to rent or purchase a house of your own choosing? What about choosing a wife if that is your desire? If you answer yes to these three questions, you have affirmed that human beings have free will (which also is a theological position I hold).

So when it comes to salvation, human beings can 'choose this day whom you will serve' (Joshua 24:15). God saves and takes the initiative in salvation, but he gives people the free will to choose to receive or reject Him - with the consequences associated with that free will choice. There will be some on this forum who disagree with what I've just written.

Remember the offer that God gave Adam in the Garden,

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die” (Genesis 2:15-17 NIV).
​

Adam acted as our representative as the first human being. If you or I as males had been there we would have made the exact same choice. God placed him in the Garden with the choice to eat of the tree or not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The first man could choose either way and if he chose to eat, 'you will certainly die' (to die is more than physical death). However, it's important to understand that from the beginning of time, God gave human beings the ability to chose for good or evil - accompanied by the consequences that go with such choices.

I recommend a read of this book by Norman Geisler as it helped me to better understand God's choosing people for salvation but affirming their freedom to respond:

Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse, 2010

2. Here I ask in my own article, 'Are there degrees of punishment in hell?' Not all is as devastating to all as you make it sound for all unbelievers.

3. Whatever the eternal destiny of any human being, God is an absolutely just Judge. See the debate between William Lane Craig and Ray Bradley, 'Can a loving God send people to hell?' See also, 'Discussing Divine Omnibenevolence'. Scripture asks, 'Will not the judge of all the earth do right?' (Genesis 18:25 NIV). The answer is a resounding, 'Yes'. Nobody will stand before God at the end of time and be able to say, 'You have treated me unfairly'.

4. Since you have this anguish, do you know there is salvation through Christ to prevent that punishment for you? See a Gospel summary I have compiled in, The Content of the Gospel . . . and some discipleship.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Warning, Don't read this below if you don't want to talk about hell/depressing stuff.
I don't want to lower anyone's spirit.
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This has bothered me horribly for many years (even making it very hard for me to sleep many nights). I was saved at a young age, but I never knew hell was eternal until I heard my dad read a passage several years later that said hell was eternal when I was a young teen. That shocked me, I always had this vision as a child that you are tortured for a certain amount of time until you have a second death of your spiritual body, and then you soul is gone forever (no more suffering) just like a deer, fish, or any wild animal dies (gone forever, no more suffering). I wanted to get saved because hell seemed bad from what my parent taught me. So I felt good as a kid knowing I should be saved, but if there was a small chance I was not saved and God never heard my prayer, then I felt it would probably be pretty bad to be tortured, but again I thought I would have a second death of the spiritual body and everything would go black with 'no more' just like a wild animal, so I felt ok about that. (Not knowing as a kid the whole time there is really no words to describe hell. Horrendous and doomed is putting it lightly)

So after years of thinking about this, my thoughts have turned into anger, depression, and confusion. As a young adult I still go to church since my parents want me to (even though I have social anxiety). But I have not personally read the Bible to my self in a few years because these issues have depressed me enough that I would rather do other things to keep my mind mostly off of this depressing stuff (whether it be sinful things or not, but I still ask for forgiveness each day in a sad trapped kind of way hoping God hears me and won't get mad at me for questioning stuff in the Bible like hell), but I can't shake off the anger/depression. That's why I'm posting here so maybe someone has an answer to my questions below (but maybe no one in the world has a good answer to my questions).

So the most horribly depressing thing to me is why did God even create the first humans if God knew (even before human creation) that only some people will go to heaven, and the majority of people on earth (probably like 70 to 90%) will be tortured in hell for eternity? Why even create people if it was God's will that no ones goes to hell??? It seems pretty simple to me to just never start the first humans in the beginning, then there would have been no one in hell ever. God would have been perfectly fine without people, and that's a fact.

This obliviously means that it was a plan that God would allow most humans to go to hell to be torture for eternity, and God created and keeps hell together and alive for some reason I don't know. Why does God not allow all the spirits/souls in hell to simple burn out instead of keeping them alive in hell to suffer for eternity?

So does this mean that I have to accept that it was God's plan (even before human creation) to torture most of humanity for eternity in hell?? Help, this is driving me mad!

I don't believe I will ever have total peace again (like I did when I was a kid) until I get this settled (if I ever can).
If hell lasted just millions of years, billions, or even a googol amount of years, I would be super happy with peace knowing it was finite, and not eternal. The reason I would have peace is because I don't know how anyone can be 110% sure if they are truly saved unless God personally sent an angel or sent some miraculous event to confirm permanent salvation to me. And I would be also be extra happy knowing that most of the would would not be tortured eternally. Even to the worst criminals I would never wish for them to be tortured eternally, because one second in hell would convert them into a priest if there was a small chance they could come back to Earth. But the Bible says it's eternal, and again this drives me mad. It's even more disheartening knowing that some people go to hell just because they are mislead about salvation, even though they are really nice and loving part of humanity on Earth.

But the eternal aspect of hell is so heavy on my mind, I sometimes feel like my head will explode.
I had what is termed medically as "night terrors" when I was a kid and those had the most horrendous, low, and doomed feelings you could ever imagine (being trapped and forced to do impossible tasks over and over in my mind with total confusion and chaos), I would twist up in my bed sheets as my heart was pounding out of my chest, with sweating, and not being able to wake up. When I would finally awaken it was the most blissful and heavenly feeling realizing it was not real and I was ok.
So I imagine hell is trillions of times worse.

Bible reference to what I posted above:
Only a few go to heaven and most go to hell:
Matthew 7:13 and 14
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

God wants all to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:3 and 4
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God has always known the future:
Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Psalm 33;11
"But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations."
Proverbs 19:21
"Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails."

-----
One more thing, I don't believe in calvinism because to me God places the soul/spirit in a human right after conception in my belief. Thus People choosing to have kids are the ones that made a hell bound person in my option, because if God made that person it would mean calvinism is true. But since sex is a human freewill choice from God calvinism is false. Again I just don't know why God started humans in the beginning if God knew most would go to hell before God made humans.

So I think having kids is a huge giant eternal risk for possibly creating a hell bound person if they were to rebel as teenager/young adults (which is a big reason why I don't want kids).

I know a lot of this maybe hard to sink in, and I apologize if I offended or depressed anyone (because I'm not trying to do that), I'm just looking for maybe some good answers, because again this stuff just makes me extremely sad, and feel hopeless for peace.

 

[OzSpen]

Warning, Don't read this below if you don't want to talk about hell/depressing stuff.
I don't want to lower anyone's spirit.

You made this lengthy original post on 9 November 2013 and there have been 9 responses (including this one) since then. It is now 30 November and you have not responded.

Why is this? Are you a troll?

I note there is an ano123 at these locations:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/members/ano123-431206.html

http://www.teencentral.net/Stories/Story.php?stry=209846
http://www.teencentral.com/Stories/Story.php?stry=209787

http://www.babyloan.org/en/lenders/ano123

http://careers.state.gov/engage/forums/careers-state-gov/qep-results-for-june-2012-fsot-passers

http://www.streetadvisor.com.au/user/ano123

http://socialitelife.com/lady-gaga-...ew-song-goverment-hooker-photos-video-03-2011

http://forum.cybersportsworld.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6079

 

[jamantc]

Why is man so set on taking glory from God just to say he had a decision in his salvation? Man responds because the spirit moves him to. Jesus made it clear no one come to Him less the Father first draw him. He will not turn away all the Father gives Him. Norm Geisler and many Arminian (semi pelagian) are so set to say they did something to take glory from God it's crazy. If you want to give real glory to Him, thank Him for choosing to save you due to no merit of your own and fall prostrate as the angels and seraphim did and when those in the old testament were in His presence and worship Him in complete reverence and awe. I loved Him because He first loved me, not because I first love Him, therefore I chose Him because He first chose me and not vice versa. Glory be to God for all things, especially for choosing to save one such as me not of anything I have done, not of man who wills or man who runs, but because of God who wills for His Own good pleasure according to the council of His will and whose ways are not my ways and whose thoughts are not my thoughts. We don't wake up one day and say I am making a decision to follow Christ, that is pelagian, semi pelagian, and arminianism. If we wake and feel the drawing of the spirit to come to Christ, then that is not of our doing or our decision but of God's choosing to bring us to repentance and accepting us in Christ

 

[jamantc]

So when it comes to salvation, human beings can 'choose this day whom you will serve' (Joshua 24:15).

when this verse is taken in complete context with the whole of what Joshua is saying, Joshua has already assumed many of those of whom he is speaking to as already moved away from God in such a distance that he his not asking them to choose God, he is asking them to choose which gods they are now going to serve, the gods of their forefathers they served in Mesopotamia or the gods of the Amorites they had found in Canaan. God's sovereignty in Joshua is obvious in the facts of God's Own word with the "I" alone statements not to include the "God did this statement". Of all the nations, God chose Israel, God made covenants, and God chose those whom He would save. Even if God looked down the corridor of time (as Norm Geisler has stated before in arguments), it still leaves the Gospel Message at one place and the redemptive price of Christ blood a particular death not for everyone. The Gospel Message is not for sinners, but for those whom have received salvation. Jesus death was particular for those whom He died and not a general death dependent on those who would "decide" to follow Him. Calvinist or Semi-Pelagin (Arminian) you have to admit that Christ death is not effective for all whether God chose them or looked down the corridor of time. Blood can't cover that which it is not intended to cover. Chosen or the corridor of time, Jesus is death was only for those who believe and no one else. Chosen or the corridor of time, those who come to Christ or those whom Christ died for and no one else. In God's sovereignty, I give Him the credit for saving me due to nothing of my own merit.

 

[OzSpen]

when this verse is taken in complete context with the whole of what Joshua is saying, Joshua has already assumed many of those of whom he is speaking to as already moved away from God in such a distance that he his not asking them to choose God, he is asking them to choose which gods they are now going to serve, the gods of their forefathers they served in Mesopotamia or the gods of the Amorites they had found in Canaan. God's sovereignty in Joshua is obvious in the facts of God's Own word with the "I" alone statements not to include the "God did this statement". Of all the nations, God chose Israel, God made covenants, and God chose those whom He would save. Even if God looked down the corridor of time (as Norm Geisler has stated before in arguments), it still leaves the Gospel Message at one place and the redemptive price of Christ blood a particular death not for everyone. The Gospel Message is not for sinners, but for those whom have received salvation. Jesus death was particular for those whom He died and not a general death dependent on those who would "decide" to follow Him. Calvinist or Semi-Pelagin (Arminian) you have to admit that Christ death is not effective for all whether God chose them or looked down the corridor of time. Blood can't cover that which it is not intended to cover. Chosen or the corridor of time, Jesus is death was only for those who believe and no one else. Chosen or the corridor of time, those who come to Christ or those whom Christ died for and no one else. In God's sovereignty, I give Him the credit for saving me due to nothing of my own merit.

jamantc,

Would you please learn to back quote? You seem to be referring to my post as you mentioned Norman Geisler. If you wrote in smaller paragraphs, it would make it easier for me to read.

So is Arminianism not representative of mainstream Baptist theology? You seem to be promoting in your post a few misunderstandings of the doctrines of Arminianism. I am a Reformed or Classical Arminian in many aspects of my theology.

I refer you to Roger E Olson's book in which he exposes the myths that 'Arminianism is a human centered theology'; 'Arminianism is not a theology of grace'; 'Arminians do not believe in predestination'; and that Arminianism is Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian as you allege.


InterVarsity Press (2006)

Dr Olson teaches at a mainstream Southern Baptist seminary. He is the Foy Valentine Professor of Christian Theology and Ethics (1999) at George W Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco TX.

See Olson’s article from August 2013, ‘A Conversation between a Calvinist and an Arminian about God’s Sovereignty’.

By the way, Norman Geisler labels his beliefs as that of 'moderate Calvinism' (Chosen But Free rev edn, Minneapolis, MN: BethanyHouse 2010).

In Christ, Oz

 

[AndOne]

Dr. Olson would be wrong. Geisler was debunked by Dr. James White in "The Potter' Freedom." Arminianism has crept in to the SBC in recent years. Historically it is Calvinist denomination.

 

[OzSpen]

when this verse is taken in complete context with the whole of what Joshua is saying, Joshua has already assumed many of those of whom he is speaking to as already moved away from God in such a distance that he his not asking them to choose God, he is asking them to choose which gods they are now going to serve, the gods of their forefathers they served in Mesopotamia or the gods of the Amorites they had found in Canaan. God's sovereignty in Joshua is obvious in the facts of God's Own word with the "I" alone statements not to include the "God did this statement". Of all the nations, God chose Israel, God made covenants, and God chose those whom He would save. Even if God looked down the corridor of time (as Norm Geisler has stated before in arguments), it still leaves the Gospel Message at one place and the redemptive price of Christ blood a particular death not for everyone. The Gospel Message is not for sinners, but for those whom have received salvation. Jesus death was particular for those whom He died and not a general death dependent on those who would "decide" to follow Him. Calvinist or Semi-Pelagin (Arminian) you have to admit that Christ death is not effective for all whether God chose them or looked down the corridor of time. Blood can't cover that which it is not intended to cover. Chosen or the corridor of time, Jesus is death was only for those who believe and no one else. Chosen or the corridor of time, those who come to Christ or those whom Christ died for and no one else. In God's sovereignty, I give Him the credit for saving me due to nothing of my own merit.

Again, would you please write in smaller paragraphs? This is to help my comprehension.

I only have the time to respond to a couple of your points and that these are the ones that I take most umbrage to, because I understand that it is your Calvinism speaking, but seems to violate some fundamentals of the Gospel and evangelism.

May I direct you to the General Theology directory here in Christian Forums of Soteriology where these topics have been debated over and over. I’ve participated at length there.

I refer to your statement: ‘The Gospel Message is not for sinners, but for those whom have received salvation. Jesus death was particular for those whom He died and not a general death dependent on those who would "decide" to follow Him’.

This is your Calvinism speaking and it seems to be contrary to these Scriptures:

• I Peter 3:18, ‘For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit’ (NIV).
• 1 John 2:2, ‘He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world’ (ESV).
• John 3:16, ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life’ (ESV).

Did Paul preach to sinners (unbelievers)?

Let’s use Acts 17:16-21 as an example with Paul in Athens and provoked by its idolatry:

16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the market-place every day with those who happened to be there. 18 Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21 Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new (ESV, emphasis added).

It's a BIG stretch of the imagination to say that there were no sinners among:

• people 'in the market-place every day with those who happened to be there'.
• 'Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers'. Were these all Christian philosophical believers that Paul preached to in Athens?
• Who would address this preacher with the question, 'What does this babbler wish to say?' Are you telling me that a person who heard preaching on Jesus and the resurrection who was a believer would accuse Paul of being a 'babbler'?
• I am dumbfounded to think that a born-again, regenerated, atoned-for believer would say: 'you bring some strange things to our ears' with preaching on Jesus and the resurrection;
• 'all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there' were all believers???? That's a stretch.

And I haven't dealt with Paul's audience at the Areopagus (Acts 17:22-34). Among Paul's audience at the Areopagus were those who, 'when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked' (Acts 17:32). So these mockers of the resurrection of the dead were not sinners – they were all believers, were they?

We could continue with evidence of unbelieving sinners among the audience where Paul preached, as recorded in Acts. When Paul and Silas were in Berea, it states that 'many of them therefore believed' (Acts 17:12). So is it saying that believers now believed? And that these were not sinners at the time of the preaching?

I do not find that to be exegetically sound if you want me to believe ‘That Christ did not die for sinners and the Gospel message is not for sinners, I find to be your imposition on the biblical texts that this means, ‘The Gospel Message is not for sinners, but for those whom have received salvation’.

This is because of your Calvinistic understanding that regeneration precedes salvation. I disagree. See my article to refute this view: Does regeneration precede faith in Christian salvation?

In Christ, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Dr. Olson would be wrong. Geisler was debunked by Dr. James White in "The Potter' Freedom." Arminianism has crept in to the SBC in recent years. Historically it is Calvinist denomination.

Dr Roger E Olson is no mean theologian who is a professor of Christian theology in mainstream SBC thinking.

Also, there is an additional factor:

The Southern Baptists are promoting a critique of TULIP Calvinism through its own publishing house, Nashville, Tennessee: B&H Academic 2010. I'm referring to Whosoever Will: A Biblical-Theological Critique of Five-Point Calvinism. Edited by David Allen & Steve Lemke. I have read this 306pp book in its entirety.


In the foreword, Pastor Johnny Hunt of First Baptist Church Woodstock, GA, and president of the Southern Baptist Convention wrote, 'As Baptists, we all know that we have Calvinists and non-Calvinists within our ranks.... As everyone who knows me personally is aware, I do not adhere to the five points of Calvinism' (2010:vii). So the President of the SBC, at the time of this book's publication was not a five-point (TULIP) Calvinist.

In the Preface, James Leo Garrett Jr., Distinguished Professor of Theology Emeritus, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote on a topic addressed in this publication: 'We must indeed acknowledge that there has been a major strand of Calvinism in Baptist life, that is, Baptist Calvinism, despite the efforts of some to downplay such. What was the precise nature of that strand and is it supportable by a fair, accurate, and comprehensive reading of the New Testament? These questions have been addressed by those who made presentations at the John 3:16 Conference [the topic of this book] and those who have prepared supplemental papers' (2010:xi).

Allen & Lemke in their Introduction state:

On November 6-7, 2008, the John 3:16 Conference was held at First Baptist Church in Woodstock, Georgia. The presenters in the John 3:16 Conference stand in the great Baptist tradition that is neither fully Calvinist nor Arminian but is informed by both of these theological traditions. They believe that the majority of Southern Baptists and many other evangelicals do not fully embrace Calvinism or Reformed theology.... The conference attracted a crowd of about 1,000 participants.... The speakers at this conference would not identify themselves as Calvinists (nor as Arminians) but simply as Baptists (2010:2).

So there is a tradition of non-TULIP theology within the Southern Baptist tradition according to this publication, based on that Conference. And have a guess what? It is published by a major SBC publishing house, B&H.

In Christ, Oz

 

[Petruchio]

This is your Calvinism speaking and it seems to be contrary to these Scriptures:

• I Peter 3:18, ‘For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit’ (NIV).
• 1 John 2:2, ‘He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world’ (ESV).
• John 3:16, ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life’ (ESV).

Only really the verse in the middle, which at first glance (for those unaware of how the Jews speak on these matters) seems to contradict limited atonement. The other verses do not touch us, since we do not deny that people receive faith (believe), and are justified, according to their own will.

We simply deny that when God changes the heart of the sinner, that a person can will anything differently.

To answer the verse in the middle, and all such verses like it, here is a reply I've made in previous encounters (though not with you) that settles it. It handles the verse you cited, and more, though your verse is dealt with at the end, comparing it to its parallel:

One must be aware of the unique peculiarities Jews make use of in their language. For example, from Gill’s commentary, commenting on the Jewish use of the words “all the world, the world, the whole world, all the men of the world,” etc, Gill begins by quoting Jewish examples where the word is used in radically different ways from how we would use it today:

“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles, “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),

‘it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’(n)

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,

“amle ylwk, “the “whole world” has left the Misna, and gone after the “Gemara”;’’

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),

“amle ylwk, “the whole world” fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;’’

where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when

“R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), “the whole world” stood up before him;’’

that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),

“when a great man makes a mourning, “the whole world” come to honour him;’’

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, “the whole world” is not divided, or does not dissent (s); “the whole world” are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, “all the men of the world” (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, “all the world”, or “the whole world”, in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world”

(From Gill’s Commentary on 1 John 2:2, quoting from (l) Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5. (m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. (n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. (p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. (q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. (r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. (t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. (u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16.)

Scriptural examples of this include:

Luk 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

By this Luke means, not the whole habitable world, as much of it was still undiscovered, and not even the whole known world, which even in those days was not all under the power of the Roman empire, but just the Roman empire itself, or perhaps Judae.

Another one, which Gill mentioned:

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Obviously we are no longer under the power of Satan, but have been released from his clutches by the power of Jesus Christ.

Another:

Luk 11:42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”

Some translations render this “all manner of herb,” but, literally, it is “every herb,” which, obviously, the meaning is only every kind of herb.

St. Augustine uses this example in his explanation of the verse 1 Ti 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved”:

“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)

Another example:

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
(Rom 3:10-11)

Obviously this cannot mean that no one seeks or understands, as, obviously, all Christians seek and understand (though maybe not perfectly). But, Paul’s meaning is more general,r referring to the depraved world, or of all Christians prior to Christ saving them, who, before that time, are incapable of seeing, believing or understanding until the Holy Spirit moves on them.

Another example, Christ distinguishing between the world and those given to Him out of the world:

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Thus the world does not mean everyone in the world, but all those not given to Him.

Finally, more direct examples, by comparing seemingly contradictory verses with their parallels:

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Thus the meaning is, Christ is the atonement for all the sins of the children of God scattered abroad, of every nation and tribe.

Did Paul preach to sinners (unbelievers)?

An irrelevancy, since it is by the preaching of the word that God has decided to work. For example:

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

It seems the rest of your post falls into this same false premise.

This is because of your Calvinistic understanding that regeneration precedes salvation. I disagree. See my article to refute this view: Does regeneration precede faith in Christian salvation?

It is annoying to have to read articles to get people's views about things. If you're going to engage in debate, bring your material here. It is no big deal even if you copy and paste your own material.

 

[OzSpen]

Dr. Olson would be wrong. Geisler was debunked by Dr. James White in "The Potter' Freedom." Arminianism has crept in to the SBC in recent years. Historically it is Calvinist denomination.

Dr Olson is spot on. He hit the button of the myths that Calvinists and others perpetrate about Arminianism [previously I had inadvertently written Calvinism here instead of Arminianism]. Have you read all of Dr Olson's book, 'Arminian Theology: Myths & Realities' (IVP) to be able to comment that Dr Olson is wrong? I have read it all.

That Dr James White (a TULIP Calvinist) would want to debunk Norman Geisler (a self proclaimed 'moderate Calvinist') is standard fare in love and theology. As I find out on this forum. You are one of those who does not like it when I respond as a Reformed Arminian to some of your posts.

But that won't cause me to go away.

The non-TULIP Baptists in the SBC are not going to go away. This is demonstrated in the David L Allen and Steve W Lemke (eds) book, Whosoever Will: A Biblical-Theological Critique of Five-Point Calvinist (B&H 2010).

 

[Petruchio]

Dr Olson is spot on. He hit the button of the myths that Calvinists and others perpetrate about Calvinism.

That Dr James White (a TULIP Calvinist) would want to debunk Norman Geisler (a self proclaimed 'moderate Calvinist') is standard fare in love and theology. As I find out on this forum. You are one of those who does not like it when I respond as a Reformed Arminian to some of your posts.

I find the concept of a "moderate Calvinist" to be utterly absurd. It has never been a term used in history so far as I am aware. It is like saying that a moderate Calvinist is that which is actually an Arminian or Pelagian. In other words, a moderate Calvinist is that which is not Calvinist at all.

But it's worthless to debate about books or articles. These matters can be settled here with the scripture.

 

[OzSpen]

I find the concept of a "moderate Calvinist" to be utterly absurd. It has never been a term used in history so far as I am aware. It is like saying that a moderate Calvinist is that which is actually an Arminian or Pelagian. In other words, a moderate Calvinist is that which is not Calvinist at all.

But it's worthless to debate about books or articles. These matters can be settled here with the scripture.

So did Calvin believe in all 5-points of TULIP Calvinism? Was Calvin other than a Calvinist as you understand Calvinism?