Some Questions

Thraximundar · Nov 3, 2010

Hello all,

I do believe I am posting in the correct board because I have some serious questions about Christianity that prevent me from accepting it. I was raised Catholic and then Protestant but found huge consistency issues in both and with family problems, I deconverted and eventually found the pagan beliefs that I accept now. I won't elaborate unless its really important, I'd rather not waste time sounding rambly.

So apparently I don't know a ton about all of the different branches of Christianity but I'd like to see responses from a wide variety of people if possible. Thanks.

First Question: Why must we be saved?
This one is straight forward: Assuming free will, God gave us the ability to make many choices in our lives. Unfortunately, basically all choices do not amount up to the archaic and complex law of the old testament. Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold? What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules? Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed. Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Most people say the Bible is completely without fault but these are the same people who say not to "trust men". Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it. Besides it has been translated many times with good and not-so-good intentions. Plus there are given empirical statements in it that defy science, such as the idea of a seven day creation. So how do most people understand the relevance of the Bible? Do they take it as very important but not perfect? Or do they literally take it as perfection?

Third Question: Is God 'love'?
I hear this phrase tossed around a lot but if God is love his people don't show it very well and, depending on beliefs, he certainly sends a lot of people to hell, anywhere from 60% to 99.9(...)% I would estimate. We all know the Bible's authors were far from tolerant and Jesus himself makes exclusive claims to Christianity otherwise hell is your fate. So is this 'love' idea true or is it just a marketing ploy by some churches to get converts?

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?
Every church does it; bashing another church because they are 'too liberal' or 'wrong' or 'terrible heretics' so which of you guys is correct? How would you prove something like that?

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
In my experience, church consisted of older people who were strong moral and political conservatives who severely disliked anyone remotely different from them. Do churches have some sort of cultural adjustment? For example, I know a lot of Orthodox churches tend to be exclusive as a result of ethnicity and language barriers (it would be hard for your average anglo-saxon teen guy to show up to the local Serbian Orthodox church ). I know some churches are more 'liberal' and have a younger population but I can never seem to shake the image of what I had growing up. How does this thing work?

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
I have been physically removed and shunned from churches at a younger age because of my interest in pagan things (which I hear some Christian traditions stem from) and mystical things. I have been looked at as a demon worshiper and lost my entire group of friends twice in my life now as well as having most of my family ignore me. This is a more or less personal question to the individuals who reply to this thread.

Sorry about going from theology to more mundane questions. I have a lot more of both but I didn't want to flood people with them. Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply to me.
-Thrax

drich0150 · Nov 3, 2010

Thraximundar said:
Hello all,

First Question: Why must we be saved?

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In short because God said so.

Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold?

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These "complex rules" all boil down to two. Love your lord God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength, and the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself.

What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules?

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This is an incorrect way of thinking of sin and salvation. Heaven and hell sin and salvation is not a form of punishment and reward. We have been given this life to prove to ourselves that if we were left unencumbered, where we would choose to spend eternity. With God, or separated from Him.

Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed. Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

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He did, our personal philosophies on the other hand tend to complicate things, as you will apparently demonstrate "later."

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?

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In so far as it establishes the power, authority, and deity of God, and that it sets the precedents of His righteousness, the cost of sin and the chain of events that set man free from the sin, Yes The bible is absolutely inerrant in these areas.

Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it.

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Men penned the bible, they did not write it.

So how do most people understand the relevance of the Bible? Do they take it as very important but not perfect? Or do they literally take it as perfection?

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Those who look for absolute, absolutes no matter what their intentions are often times disappointed. Where God shows to reveal Himself in Scripture however, the only disappointment offered is to those looking for errancy in the scriptures.

Third Question: Is God 'love'?

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Apparently you mean to ask: is God your definition of Love... Apparently not. However (As I will demonstrate) your understanding of "Love" is limited, to hallmark-eian understanding of the word.

I hear this phrase tossed around a lot but if God is love his people don't show it very well and, depending on beliefs, he certainly sends a lot of people to hell, anywhere from 60% to 99.9(...)% I would estimate.

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Who are you to estimate? I ask because it seems to be on your authority that you "estimate" that God is the one sending people to Hell. When in fact it is those people who choose to be eternally separated from God. God merely holds us accountable to our decisions.

If you buy a train ticket to New York, but you try and get on a train headed to denver, but the conductor puts you back on the train to New York, is it the train conductor that "sent" you to New York? Or was it the ticket YOU Bought that sent you to New York?

On the Same token, How could a righteous and loving God drag someone into Heaven kicking and screaming, if that person sent his entire life putting distance between himself and God? What if for some reason, some where in the past. the description of heaven and hell were reversed, And Hell was what we know to be paradise(But no God), and Heaven was a fiery pit, but God lived there, would you still think it would be OK to drag those who do not wish to be in the presents of God into the fiery pit?

If Not, then know you are childishly asking Why doesn't the God of the universe simply invite and allow all who hate Him into his house, provide for them for an eternity and simply banish himself to hell so those who hate Him, can live and eternity in paradise without Him??? Let me ask you this, if the roles where reversed would you do this for someone who hated you?
Do you not see the hypocrisy in your answer?
Even using your own definition of "Love" is your response a "loving" one?

We all know the Bible's authors were far from tolerant

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Tolerant using what standard? Today's popular western culture, or perhaps Iranian popular culture? True intolerance leaves no room for change or forgiveness. Christianity, True Christianity is all about Change, and forgiveness and therefore can not be deemed intolerant. (If the word is used in it's proper context and not used as a popular culture reference)

and Jesus himself makes exclusive claims to Christianity otherwise hell is your fate.

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Either you do not understand what Jesus actually said or someone has taught you incorrectly about what Christ says about who comes to the father.

Fourth Question:

What denominations are acceptable?

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Any Christ centered denomination where are told to Love the Lord God with all of our being, and where we are taught that salvation comes through the blood of Christ by the repentance of sin.

Every church does it; bashing another church because they are 'too liberal' or 'wrong' or 'terrible heretics' so which of you guys is correct?

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None of us are correct, completely. But the wonderful thing about God is that the same blood that forgives ill intention sin forgives the mistakes made by some one who love their God with all of their being, and makes a mistake doing so...

How would you prove something like that?

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By opening your bible and reading it.. By looking at the mistakes make in new covenant worship and then looking at the corrections (in some cases) and in the permissibility of others.

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?

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We are commanded to Love God with all of our being. This Is Our Greatest Command. In doing so this frees us from worshiping a specific religion, much like how the old testament followers did. What this means is that the worship of God is no longer a matter of worshiping ceremonies and rules. Worshiping God is now free to take of the form of the individuals heart where the worship is taking place. This allows for the different denominations and it allows to span cultural gaps. What makes this possible is the blood of Christ, as I said before if God can forgive intentional sin from a rebellious heart, then how much more forgiveness is there from a heart only looking to love God with his best form of worship.

I liken it to a child who draws a picture of his or her father and takes it to him. Out of love and a desire to express that love, the child takes all of his/her available tools and knowledge and puts crayon/finger paint to paper and lovingly creates his/her heart felt expression of Love. Now Does a loving father look at all of the inconsistencies in this picture or does He look at the effort and the love that went into the childs work? If you truly know your bible (The Inerrant parts) you will know the answer to this question.

Sixth Question:

What are your individual views on things musical?

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Such as?

I have been physically removed and shunned from churches at a younger age because of my interest in pagan things (which I hear some Christian traditions stem from) and mystical things. I have been looked at as a demon worshiper and lost my entire group of friends twice in my life now as well as having most of my family ignore me. This is a more or less personal question to the individuals who reply to this thread.

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With out specifics I can't say anything other than: We have been told to stay away from those types of things, not because they do not exist, but because those types of things tend to boarder the demonic realm.

salida · Nov 4, 2010

First Question: Why must we be saved?
It is all fair. Men caused the fall-Adam. God didn't cause it.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Acts 17:26-27: Everyone is born in a certain place and time period so that our chance of knowing God is at its highest.
Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
The bible is perfect-but God used men who arn't. The scribes had very strict standards-so its as accurate as the dead sea scrolls.
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible that would stand up in court) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.
http://americanvision.org/3651/why-contradictions-authenticate-the-bible/
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability
http://creation.com/who-really-is-the-god-of-genesis
http://www.godandscience.org/love/sld045.html

Third Question: Is God 'love'?
God is unconditional love.

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?
What do you believe concerning specifics? They all have the same basic beliefs.
There are minor differences.
The denomination test.
http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=christiandenom

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
Its a matter of finding a church you are comfortable with. Some churches have more older people; some have more youth, etc.
　
　
Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
The bible strongly forbids it. Its witchcraft. One starts dancing with the devil.

　
　
　
　

aiki · Nov 4, 2010

First Question: Why must we be saved?

Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold?

Well, you see, how you're framing your question reveals a lot about what you understand of God. By definition, God cannot "need" anything; to be God is to be perfectly self-sufficient. So, God didn't "feel the need" to command our behaviour. Anyway, God issues His moral commands to us for our benefit, not His. Being the Creator, God knows precisely the best way for us to live and His commandments show us this way. When we obey God's commands, we live in the way God knows is the best way for us to live.

Yes, God knew we would not be able to live up to His commands. But is it reasonable for us to expect, then, that He should have no commands for us at all? Wouldn't this be giving in to our weakness? If His laws are for our benefit, wouldn't suspending them contribute to our living in a way that God knows is not to our benefit? I think so.

As drich noted, God's laws aren't really that complex. In fact, they boil down to just two basic commands.

What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules?

Because we are too weak, too inclined to sin to do so ourselves.

It is God's prerogative as God to set the rules. Graciously, He has made us with the capacity to freely choose to obey those rules - or not. We are not puppets, or robots programmed only to do good. God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to make us moral free agents. Asking why, though, is rather like asking why grass must be green, or why He instituted the Law of Gravity, or why He made planets to be round rather than square. Knowing why doesn't change that these things are so.

Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed.

It isn't that we need a stronger will; for such a will could be turned to evil as well as to good. We need a greater desire to be holy as God is holy. God gives us that desire when we are "born again." He doesn't leave us to flounder endlessly in moral failure.

Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

A cosmic joke? No, I don't think so.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Most people say the Bible is completely without fault but these are the same people who say not to "trust men". Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it.

How so? Christians believe that God superintended the writing of His Word, preventing the corruption of Scripture that you suggest. Consequently, Christians generally hold that the Word of God is inerrant - in its original form.

Besides it has been translated many times with good and not-so-good intentions.

Errors in copying or more significant adjustments to the text of Scripture can be, and have been, revealed by comparison among the more than 20,000 extant, ancient, manuscript copy fragments and complete portions of the Scripture that exist. Bible scholars have been able to determine with amazing certainty the exact, original form of the New and Old Testaments. There is no nail-biting uncertainty about what the Word of God originally said.

Plus there are given empirical statements in it that defy science, such as the idea of a seven day creation.

Don't forget the crossing of the Red Sea, the battle between Elijah and the prophets of Baal, the falling walls of Jericho, Jonah in the belly of a whale for three days, Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt, the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus, and the resurrection. If the Creation story is impossible, then one must view these other events in Scripture with equal skepticism. Of course, if one does so, what is left of the divine revelation of God in the Bible? Not much, I'm afraid.

Why is it so difficult to understand that the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe can and does operate on a level of power and complexity and knowledge that will leave us dumbfounded? Why is it that people insist God must work on a level that is completely accessible to their finite understanding of things? Personally, I wouldn't want to serve or worship a God who kowtowed to human limits and never did anything marvellously extraordinary and supernatural. What a dull universe this would be if He did!

So how do most people understand the relevance of the Bible? Do they take it as very important but not perfect? Or do they literally take it as perfection?

Inasmuch as the Bible claims to be the inspired Word of God, I must believe that it is, in its original form, inerrant.

Third Question: Is God 'love'?
I hear this phrase tossed around a lot but if God is love his people don't show it very well

Some of His people don't show His love well. I know Christians, though, in whom the love of God shines very brightly indeed!

and, depending on beliefs, he certainly sends a lot of people to hell, anywhere from 60% to 99.9(...)% I would estimate.

How does judging and punishing evil preclude love? God is love, but He is also a holy and just. God would rather welcome all people into His kingdom than send them to hell, but most people reject the way He has made to do so. When we reject the way of salvation from hell that God has made for us because He loves us, we place ourselves under His holy wrath and judgment. If God had made no way for us to escape the punishment for our sins, you might have a case for questioning His love. But God has gone to incredible lengths to secure for us a means of salvation and in so doing demonstrates a love for us that is truly astonishing!

We all know the Bible's authors were far from tolerant

Uh, what? I'm sorry, I don't follow you here...Do you mean tolerant of sin?

and Jesus himself makes exclusive claims to Christianity otherwise hell is your fate. So is this 'love' idea true or is it just a marketing ploy by some churches to get converts?

I think the cross of Calvary makes it very clear that God loves with an amazing love.

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?
Every church does it

Every church? Have you been in every church to find this out? Careful with the sweeping generalities.

...bashing another church because they are 'too liberal' or 'wrong' or 'terrible heretics' so which of you guys is correct? How would you prove something like that?

The Scripture is the sole standard by which heretical teaching is assessed.

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
In my experience, church consisted of older people who were strong moral and political conservatives who severely disliked anyone remotely different from them.

From thirteen years of age until I left home for university when I was twenty, my father pastored a church that was populated mainly by older people. 85% of the congregation when my Dad began to pastor were over 70 years of age. A few were pretty crusty, but most of them were delightful people in whom the love of God could be plainly seen. Whether it was a drunk who had staggered into the church off the street, or a wild and angry teen slouching about in a cloud of pubescent angst, these aged folk welcomed them all and sought to touch their lives with the love of God.

Do churches have some sort of cultural adjustment? For example, I know a lot of Orthodox churches tend to be exclusive as a result of ethnicity and language barriers (it would be hard for your average anglo-saxon teen guy to show up to the local Serbian Orthodox church

). I know some churches are more 'liberal' and have a younger population but I can never seem to shake the image of what I had growing up. How does this thing work?

You know, I've never attended a church that had any kind of ethnic or social restriction on it. I'm a Baptist, you see. I don't know how the "You don't belong here" thing works in God's church. Personally, I think this elitist behaviour is dead wrong.

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
I have been physically removed and shunned from churches at a younger age because of my interest in pagan things (which I hear some Christian traditions stem from) and mystical things.

Really? Hmmm...Did you expect Christians to welcome and embrace your paganism?

I have been looked at as a demon worshiper and lost my entire group of friends twice in my life now as well as having most of my family ignore me.

Your paganism doesn't sound like it has been a boon to your life... So, what's so attractive about it? Why are you willing to suffer as you have for it?

Selah.

ToHoldNothing · Nov 4, 2010

The benefits of a religion shouldn't be viewed in such narrow ways as what other people think of it. Otherwise, why would you be a Christian, aiki, in a world that I imagine you'd claim is "hostile" to Christianity? Losing friends, being insulted, all these things shouldn't matter if your life has improved, by your perspective and such, right?

aiki · Nov 4, 2010

The benefits of a religion shouldn't be viewed in such narrow ways as what other people think of it. Otherwise, why would you be a Christian, aiki, in a world that I imagine you'd claim is "hostile" to Christianity? Losing friends, being insulted, all these things shouldn't matter if your life has improved, by your perspective and such, right?

Maybe the rules of this forum have changed, but the last time I checked only Christians were to be posting in these threads in response to the posts of the OPer. You are consistently ignoring this rule, ToHoldNothing, and I wish you wouldn't. The purpose of this forum is to field questions by those seeking to know more about Christianity, not serve as a forum for those opposed to Christianity to air their antagonism to the faith.

Feel free to start your own thread if you have a burning question about Christianity you think we can answer.

Selah.

ToHoldNothing · Nov 4, 2010

I was sympathizing. I wasn't disagreeing in general principle. You would no doubt be compelled to be a convicted Christian I imagine even if you were disowned by your family and lost friends. The point stands then moreso that a religion is beneficial primarily, though not wholly, as it makes the believer feel complete and fulfilled, even when bad things assail them in various forms.

Bear.Fr00t · Nov 5, 2010

First Question: Why must we be saved?
The Law was created to show us how immoral we really are. Once we realize how off the God's mark we land, we turn to God and repent of our sins. Like a biological father who accepts a teenager that ran away to party, God accepts us back and forgives us for our sins.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Men wrote the Bible under inspiration from God. When you compare a modern Bible to existing ancient manuscripts it matches up extremely well. By the way, how has science proved that God cannot create this world in seven days?

Third Question: Is God 'love'?
God invites you into a love relationship with Him. If you chose not to, well, then that's your choice and God honors your decision. It's up to you, that's what free will is all about.

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?
If it confirms to what the Bible teaches, it is legit. That's something you'll have to decide, after reading the Bible of course.

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
Maybe the older people have finally realized life isn't a party and God is real. At any rate, find a church you like and fit in.

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical
Demons are real, just like God and the angels are real. I would suggest you stop playing around in this area because it won't do you any good, but could indeed cause you a world of hurt.

E.C. · Nov 5, 2010

Thraximundar said:
First Question: Why must we be saved?
This one is straight forward: Assuming free will, God gave us the ability to make many choices in our lives. Unfortunately, basically all choices do not amount up to the archaic and complex law of the old testament. Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold? What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules? Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed. Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

The Laws (I believe you mean the 600 or so Jewish Laws) were given to the Jews to help them prepare for the coming of the Messiah.

As for the why, it is fairly complex, yet can be simplified. What separates mankind from animals is that within the soul mankind has what is called the "nous" or the heart of the soul. When Adam and Eve sinned it caused damage to the nous, so for a long time anyone who died went to Hades including Adam and Eve. With Jesus Christ coming around, during the time between His crucifixion and His resurrection He descended into Hades and brought all of the righteous people, including Adam and Eve, into Heaven. The whole "point" of Christianity is to heal the nous of sin which Adam and Eve brought into the world. When Christ went into Hades a number of things happened; for one He conquered death. His descent into Hades and taking Adam and Eve out of there is representative of all of mankind being saved from eternal death in Hades.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Most people say the Bible is completely without fault but these are the same people who say not to "trust men". Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it. Besides it has been translated many times with good and not-so-good intentions. Plus there are given empirical statements in it that defy science, such as the idea of a seven day creation. So how do most people understand the relevance of the Bible? Do they take it as very important but not perfect? Or do they literally take it as perfection?

The Bible is important, but not perfect least of all those who interpret it.

The problem that I have with people who declare the inerrancy of the Bible is that nine times out of ten it goes hand-in-hand with "my interpretation of the Bible is inerrant".

Third Question: Is God 'love'?
I hear this phrase tossed around a lot but if God is love his people don't show it very well and, depending on beliefs, he certainly sends a lot of people to hell, anywhere from 60% to 99.9(...)% I would estimate. We all know the Bible's authors were far from tolerant and Jesus himself makes exclusive claims to Christianity otherwise hell is your fate. So is this 'love' idea true or is it just a marketing ploy by some churches to get converts?

That love idea is true, but the declaring "you're going to hell for not believing in God" is wrong and it is playing God on the part of whomever is saying it.

It is God's job to judge and so forth because He knows our hearts and circumstances in life. God also has a tendency of showing a bit of grace and mercy to people.
Think of it as being a boss with two cooks and one of the two is missing an arm from the elbow down. Which one do you hold to be more responsible and accountable; the one with the arm or the one without? That is how God works with people.

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?
Every church does it; bashing another church because they are 'too liberal' or 'wrong' or 'terrible heretics' so which of you guys is correct? How would you prove something like that?

Consistency of worship, theology, organization etc; with the Apostles.

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
In my experience, church consisted of older people who were strong moral and political conservatives who severely disliked anyone remotely different from them. Do churches have some sort of cultural adjustment? For example, I know a lot of Orthodox churches tend to be exclusive as a result of ethnicity and language barriers (it would be hard for your average anglo-saxon teen guy to show up to the local Serbian Orthodox church ). I know some churches are more 'liberal' and have a younger population but I can never seem to shake the image of what I had growing up. How does this thing work?

You sure about that?

I'm a Heinz 57 American with ancestral roots in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Spain, France, Germany and some slaves. The last ancestors of mine to come to the USA were Bavarian Catholics in 1903 and here I am becoming an Orthodox Christian at sixteen!
Besides, many Orthodox churches worship in English and are welcoming of non-Serbs, non-Greeks, etc; so long as you show the normal bit of respect you would to any other human being.

As for the age-gap, part of that I believe rests on what the younger people are being taught as opposed to what the older folks were taught. 100 years ago Anglicanism still had some semblance of tradition, now you can see Anglican priests doing their mass dressed as a clown :o

I remember seeing an article some months ago about a book someone wrote which basically said that most American Protestant churches are teaching nothing more than moralistic feel-goodery, but not answering those difficult questions which teenagers tend to ask (one of mine was "what comprises the soul?" and actually found an answer to it). I wish I could find that article or remember the title of the book because the author was on to something.

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
I have been physically removed and shunned from churches at a younger age because of my interest in pagan things (which I hear some Christian traditions stem from) and mystical things. I have been looked at as a demon worshiper and lost my entire group of friends twice in my life now as well as having most of my family ignore me. This is a more or less personal question to the individuals who reply to this thread.

I have a friend who is Wicca. Sadly I get along with her better than I do most Evangelicals. Why is this? Because she and have respect for each other and each others' beliefs. We have an unspoken rule that we won't discuss religion unless it is a question needing an answer such as "what do you as a Wicca feel about Halloween?"

My rule on religion is this: Keep it to yourself unless asked a question. Have respect for people and their beliefs.

I have a question: do you believe that there is no mysticism or even a mystical side to Christianity?

Sketcher · Nov 5, 2010

Thraximundar said:
First Question: Why must we be saved?
This one is straight forward: Assuming free will, God gave us the ability to make many choices in our lives. Unfortunately, basically all choices do not amount up to the archaic and complex law of the old testament. Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold? What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules? Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed. Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

The OT does have a lot of laws, but they hang on two: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do these perfectly, then we've done the law with all its sub-commands perfectly. Problem is, we don't do that perfectly. This is whether we are born as Jews, who have 613 commands, or Gentiles, who have only seven. Through the commands of God, we become conscious of the sin which is in our hearts.

Thraximundar said:
Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Most people say the Bible is completely without fault but these are the same people who say not to "trust men". Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it. Besides it has been translated many times with good and not-so-good intentions. Plus there are given empirical statements in it that defy science, such as the idea of a seven day creation. So how do most people understand the relevance of the Bible? Do they take it as very important but not perfect? Or do they literally take it as perfection?

The men who wrote the Bible were under divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit. You can't say that about anybody writing something. Furthermore, the thousands of manuscripts that we have all match up so well, with no contradiction in doctrine or anything else of significance, so it's really not that easy to honestly dismiss. As far as scientific impossibilities, remember that science is the study of natural happenings and we worship a supernatural God who does supernatural things.

Thraximundar said:
Third Question: Is God 'love'?
I hear this phrase tossed around a lot but if God is love his people don't show it very well and, depending on beliefs, he certainly sends a lot of people to hell, anywhere from 60% to 99.9(...)% I would estimate. We all know the Bible's authors were far from tolerant and Jesus himself makes exclusive claims to Christianity otherwise hell is your fate. So is this 'love' idea true or is it just a marketing ploy by some churches to get converts?

The "love" idea is true. Of course, nobody loves perfectly, so a loving and holy God cannot rightly accept people into Heaven on their own merits. He lovingly provided an amnesty plan through Jesus Christ, which is technically more than we deserve in the first place.

As far as the first Christians are concerned, they were very much lovers of people. Rather than take up arms against those who ridiculed and even violently persecuted them, they fed them. We still see that kind of love today, particularly in the missions field. I saw some of that love on the home front, in the life of my late grandfather. The love that Jesus preached is absolutely still practiced by Christians all over the world today, and I hope that you will be fortunate enough to really see it.

Finally, making exclusive claims to the truth about Heaven and Hell isn't unloving, particularly for the God-man who came to save us from Hell. The Christian life can bring hardship, and when it does, we do well to remember why we're doing this in the first place. It's not about getting a nice car and a nice house and being healthy for the rest of your life. You can do everything right, and as Jesus demonstrated, still be crucified. Knowing that we will be in Heaven rather than Hell is a good thing indeed.

Thraximundar said:
Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?
Every church does it; bashing another church because they are 'too liberal' or 'wrong' or 'terrible heretics' so which of you guys is correct? How would you prove something like that?

I use the Bible as my guide for that. I'm non-denominational myself, but there are denominational churches that I would certainly look at attending if I were to move somewhere else. Southern Baptist is pretty close to the top of the list (the ones I hung around with really weren't that bad - in fact, they even knew how to have a good time!).

Thraximundar said:
Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
In my experience, church consisted of older people who were strong moral and political conservatives who severely disliked anyone remotely different from them. Do churches have some sort of cultural adjustment? For example, I know a lot of Orthodox churches tend to be exclusive as a result of ethnicity and language barriers (it would be hard for your average anglo-saxon teen guy to show up to the local Serbian Orthodox church ). I know some churches are more 'liberal' and have a younger population but I can never seem to shake the image of what I had growing up. How does this thing work?

My church isn't like that at all. My church has the old white people serving as elders worshiping to contemporary music played by young people of all races, and then we sit down to a sermon by a young black pastor. Not all churches are as open, unfortunately.

Thraximundar said:
Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
I have been physically removed and shunned from churches at a younger age because of my interest in pagan things (which I hear some Christian traditions stem from) and mystical things. I have been looked at as a demon worshiper and lost my entire group of friends twice in my life now as well as having most of my family ignore me. This is a more or less personal question to the individuals who reply to this thread.

I believe the Bible has sufficient spiritual truths in it, and we don't need to look to mystical stuff to complete our understanding of the things of God. I believe we have a very real enemy, Satan, who will do all sorts of cheap tricks to draw us away from God so that in the short term or long, he can do us harm. The occult is pretty much his cheap tricks at work. I don't know what gods or goddesses you claim to worship if any, but there is only one good God, and he revealed himself through the Bible.

ebia · Nov 5, 2010

Thraximundar said:
Hello all,

I do believe I am posting in the correct board because I have some serious questions about Christianity that prevent me from accepting it. I was raised Catholic and then Protestant but found huge consistency issues in both and with family problems, I deconverted and eventually found the pagan beliefs that I accept now. I won't elaborate unless its really important, I'd rather not waste time sounding rambly.

So apparently I don't know a ton about all of the different branches of Christianity but I'd like to see responses from a wide variety of people if possible. Thanks.

First Question: Why must we be saved?
This one is straight forward: Assuming free will, God gave us the ability to make many choices in our lives. Unfortunately, basically all choices do not amount up to the archaic and complex law of the old testament. Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold? What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules? Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed. Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

God created the creation, and us, very good. And we have a role to play in that creation. Our failure has disasterous consequences for ourselves and the rest of creation. God wishes to put us right in, through and for the rest of creation and our own good.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?

Is the wrong question to ask. The bible is God's story to us of the problem (Genesis 1-11) and the story so far of God's action to sort it out through the family of Abraham climaxing in Jesus of Nazareth (Genesis 12-Revelation), with some glimpses along the way of what the final goal is. A story that invites us to join in and be a part of it.

The bible is reliable and authorative as that story. Ideas like "inerrant" and "perfect" tend to be applying different questions about what sort of thing it is - they are looking at the wrong sorts of qualities for a story-inviting-participation and treating it more as a set of facts, which is not what it is trying to be.

Third Question: Is God 'love'?

Click to expand...

Yes. But we live in a world that tends to have a very "fluffy" idea of love. God's love is about helping us to become what we can and need to be for the sake of each other and the rest of creation, not just about making us feel good about how we are now.

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?

Click to expand...

None of them. Nor (even worse) non-denominationalism. or individualism. We are called to be one. We fail, our insights are partial, provisional, and distorted. But God is very good at working through human failure to bring about his objectives.

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?
Again, we are very good at confusing our culture with God's Kingdom. We are called to transend our culture and differences, but right from the very start that has proved amongst the most difficult things to do - one only needs read Acts of the Apostles and Paul's letters to see that problem right there from the very beginning.

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
I have been physically removed and shunned from churches at a younger age because of my interest in pagan things (which I hear some Christian traditions stem from) and mystical things. I have been looked at as a demon worshiper and lost my entire group of friends twice in my life now as well as having most of my family ignore me. This is a more or less personal question to the individuals who reply to this thread.

Click to expand...

The Spiritual world is very real. Playing with something real but which you don't understand is like a 3 year old playing with a chemistry set - at best they aren't going to get anything out of it, and at worst it could all blow up. There is a strong and good tradition of Christian mystism to explore, but just do-whatever-you-feel is part of the problem, not the solution.

solarwave · Nov 6, 2010

Ok so firstly I would like to say that I was once a conservative Christian but I am currently moving to a more liberal understanding of it. Also I don't want to claim I have it all correct and below are just my thoughts on your questions and I accept I could be wrong.

Thraximundar said:
First Question: Why must we be saved?

I think the hardest thing about this question is defining what it means to be saved, but I'll assume you mean going to heaven. Well I think it fair enough to say that if there is a God then we all fail and fall below His standard and we all don't know Him like we should, and so it is a good thing to come closer to the source of life and goodness that is God.

Personally I am comming to an understanding of having a good heart is more important than what you believe, but what you believe is still important and truer beliefs lead to a better state of your heart and therefore good actions. Not that good actions save you.

As for the complexity of the OT laws I think alot of them are human based rather than God based. Not eating shellfish is hardly a moral principle and even some of the moral principles are wrong. I'll explain more on this next.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?

Many people do take it to be literally inerrant. Personally I don't anymore, though I used to. My understanding of it is that it is inspired by God (not dictated by God) but that the human writers understood God through their cultural lense and so Christianity is a religion that develops, sometimes for the worse but mostly for the better.

Third Question: Is God 'love'?

In my opinion it is the most true element of Christianity, in fact I wouldn't hold anything higher than it and everything else should be interpreted based on this and the love of God shown in Christ (remember too that humans wrote Jesus words into His mouth in the Bible so it isn't obvious what Jesus thought and what the writers thought).

So God is love, some Christians don't show this, I have hope for a majority of people being saved and this love is shown in the death of Christ.

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?

I don't have too many problems with many denominations. Sure I'll argue with them but I don't think that they arn't saved because of their beliefs. The denominations that annoy me the most though are the ones which don't teach the love of God and the universal saving power of the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap?

That isn't the case in any of the churches I have ever been to. The types of churches I have been to are evangelical and charismatic ones. They had quite a wide age range, most with middle aged parents and their children or teenagers, with some young adults too.

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mysical?
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by mystical things. You can have mysticism in Christinity which seems to mean comming in close contact with God, but it is not something I have much knowledge on.

As for pagan things I would generally consider them misguided and perhaps even bad for you. In my opinion anything good you can find in paganism you can find in Christianity.

Hope that helps

Emmy · Nov 7, 2010

Dear Thraximundar. Why must we be saved? All of us will get older, and the day will come, when we leave this Earth. What then? Are you ready to live eternity in Outer Darkness? without God`s Love or Light? We have been given free will to choose to return to where we came from: God made us in His image, and our original home is with God. Adam and Eve did not love God enough to say NO to the Serpent`s crafty tempting, of eating of the Forbidden Fruit. Their eyes were opened and they were banned to Earth. After much time, they had moved too far away from God, and Jesus came to save them/Mankind. There was NONE who was without sin/transgressions. We were all hopelessly lost in selfishness and unable to love God or each other. Jesus died that we might live, Jesus paid the prize to God`s Law, which we could not, and Jesus reconciled us to God. Jesus had told us to Repent: to exchange our selfish and unloving characters FOR Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: love our neighbour, ( all others, friend or foe) as we love ourselves. Why??? Can you imagine what eternity would be like with men and women behaving as we do now? What Heaven would be like in no time at all?? God is Love, and Jesus died out of Love for us, it stands to reason that we become loving too, selflessly and beneficially. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy to share with each other, and the Holy Spirit will empower us to love as God loves us. Jesus told us: " Ask and ye will receive," and God will forgive us every time we stumble or fail, if we keep trying sincerely. God will not force us, Thraximundar, we choose to follow Jesus back to God, or go our own way into eternity in Outer Darkness, without God`s Love or Light. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

razeontherock · Nov 7, 2010

Thraximundar said:
First Question: Why must we be saved?
T Unfortunately, basically all choices do not amount up to the archaic and complex law of the old testament. Why couldn't he have made it less complex

You have missed the fact the OT law was only given for Jews. The law of sin and death still reigns over all mankind though, and Salvation is the only escape.

Thraximundar said:
Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Most people say the Bible is completely without fault but these are the same people who say not to "trust men". Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it.

This is a very important issue to sound out. History and scholarship both refute your conclusion here! That is good news indeed. Some denoms say it is "inerrant in the original signatures." That is entirely too weak sauce for me.

The Truth is the Bible reveals many many faults. The trick is to not presume to judge it knowing it to be G-d Himself, but to recognize His own authority to Judge us. While He gave us dominion, He never rescinded His position as Judge. Many on this very board have that confused!

Just the act of approaching it in this attitude is a Spiritual discipline, and can be quite challenging. Maintaining that attitude when He starts revealing Truth is no easier! We also need to take our faulty and incomplete human understanding of fit, and blame that for the problems we find rather than G-d. Different translations / versions can help with this process, when we actually get that far. Do realize the Bible was not written in English, and esp Hebrew often does NOT translate into English.

Thraximundar said:
Third Question: Is God 'love'?

Yes, but G-d is also wrath, Judgment, and a nearly infinite list of other things too. He cannot lie, does not change, and will not fail. Those are the only limitations I'm aware of, and make a pretty good definition of satan.

Thraximundar said:

Fourth Question: What denominations are acceptable?

Click to expand...

I say forget about all that. Personally, I stick with the Bible and look for people and groups that do. Not easy to find, but they are a Blessing! The other camp are those that accept both Scripture and "Tradition." I'm not the person to talk to about that, as up until recently I thought RC was the only such group. EO (Eastern Orthodox) does too, and they are QUITE distinct. Basically all the problems I see in RC are solved in EO.

Thraximundar said:

Fifth Question: What about the culture gap? How does this thing work?

Click to expand...

This is perhaps the best way of determining if a Church is 'good'; i.e., True, or not. Jesus is alive. If in a particular Church He is not, I think anyone would advise backing away. Also, anything alive - grows.

Thraximundar said:

Sixth Question: What are your individual views on things mystical?

Click to expand...

I have been called a mystic, and still don't really know what it means
No part of actual Christianity 'stems from' paganism, but Cr did absorb local customs, which certainly include 12/25, the Easter bunny, and much much more.

What is more mystical than the Holy Ghost overshadowing the Virgin Mary, and giving birth to the Christ child? That whole story, esp with all the Prophecies pertaining to it that it fulfilled, does that satisfy your definition of 'mystical?'

food4thought · Nov 7, 2010

Thraximundar said:
Hello all,

I do believe I am posting in the correct board because I have some serious questions about Christianity that prevent me from accepting it. I was raised Catholic and then Protestant but found huge consistency issues in both and with family problems, I deconverted and eventually found the pagan beliefs that I accept now. I won't elaborate unless its really important, I'd rather not waste time sounding rambly.

So apparently I don't know a ton about all of the different branches of Christianity but I'd like to see responses from a wide variety of people if possible. Thanks.

First Question: Why must we be saved?
This one is straight forward: Assuming free will, God gave us the ability to make many choices in our lives. Unfortunately, basically all choices do not amount up to the archaic and complex law of the old testament. Why did God feel the need to create an ultra complex set of rules that he ultimately knew we were going to not uphold? What is wrong with not upholding these laws? I mean the entirety of the law, not just the commandments which are seemingly cited a lot. Basically: Why does God need to save us from his own rules? Why couldn't he have made it less complex in the long run or made our beings more strong willed. Not assuming free will, this is all just a cosmic joke and we were doomed to fail, so we will come back to that later.

Since you were raised catholic, I assume you understand original sin and the fall of mankind. If not, please say so. If you know that man has inherited from Adam a fallen nature, you know that we all have a desire to do things that God forbids. The whole point of salvation is not some kind of cosmic joke or for man to try to live up to God's perfect standards, but is God's attempt to REDEEM people from their sin. The Law was a revelation of God's righteousness to mankind, and was intended to reveal to man his fallen nature and his need for redemption in order to enter God's pressence.

Second Question: Is the Bible inerrant?
Most people say the Bible is completely without fault but these are the same people who say not to "trust men". Well men wrote the Bible so that undermines trust in it. Besides it has been translated many times with good and not-so-good intentions. Plus there are given empirical statements in it that defy science, such as the idea of a seven day creation. So how do most people understand the relevance of the Bible? Do they take it as very important but not perfect? Or do they literally take it as perfection?

The bible itself answers your question about authorship:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
This basicly means that God inspired these men to write what they wrote, and although they penned the writings, it was authored by the Holy Spirit.

The original scriptures were inerrant. What we have today are copies of these originals and quotes of these copies by the early church fathers going back all the way to the first century (for the NT) and before (for portions of the OT). Although there are some minor questions about a word here and there, what we have today in manuscripts in the original languages is AT LEAST 95% accurate to the original texts. One of the great things about scripture is that the same themes and doctrines are repeated consistently throughout and there is NO DOUBT about what the Bible says about the major issues of life, salvation, and the nature of God. We do not have translations of translations, as many claim, what we do have are translations of the original languages into modern english.

Archaeology, physics, genetics, and many other branches of science have largely vindicated the bible over the centuries. As for those areas of science that contradict scripture, I am convinced that eventually it will be discovered that the science either does not have an accurate understanding of the universe yet, or that science simply is unwilling to accept the supernatural nature of God's acts. On the other hand, I do not believe one needs to accept a 6000 year age of the earth (since not everything is recorded in the bible), but I have no problem accepting the universe has a Creator. Once one accepts that there IS a Creator God who made the universe, how he did it becomes immaterial. I find it interesting that people have trouble with the order of creation in Genesis 1 if they are willing to accept the possibility of God creating the universe. The act of creating the universe by God is by definition outside of the natural laws of the universe (I hope you get that, because once you do the whole argument against genesis based on this will seem funny if it weren't so sad that many lose faith over it). God is perfectly capable of doing everything He says in exactly the way the Bible says. Science, on the other hand, attempts to explain everything in the universe ONLY thru the laws of the universe, which is a very good approach for learning how the universe works, but ultimately cannot tell us how the universe came to be, as by definition this would be something that need not conform to the laws of the universe which had not yet come to be.

I am out of time for tonight, so I will come back tommorow and see if the OP is responding anymore. If you do, I will take the time to answer the rest of the questions. I sincerely hope these answers help you.

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