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Some questions

brimac

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I am considering joining an SDA church, but I have some questions.

1) How do you guys feel about Ellen G. White?

2) Can explain Investigative Judgement to me?

3) What stance does the church typically take on war?

4) What would you tell someone who has a job which requires them to sometimes work on Saturdays?

5) What exactly is the SDA view on how we should eat? Are some vegetarians whereas other just abstain from unclean foods?

6) Is there a certain Bible translation that the church supports?

7) How does the church feel about christians and drinking?

8) What is the philosophical and Spiritual implication of Cremation and embalming?

9) How do you feel about organ doning?
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I was a Seventh-day Adventist for 3+ decades. I am not currently an SDA. In the interest of fairness, I though it reasonable to share my history with SDAism before I begin to answer your questions as my history most certainly shapes my perspective on your questions.

1) How do you guys feel about Ellen G. White?

In my opinion, Ellen G. White was a false prophet who taught a number of good things that line up with Scripture and also a number of dangerous things that directly contradict Scripture. In many cases, she even contradicted herself on certain issues. For example, she writes in certain places that it is by the power of God that man is changed and in other places that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple.

In my opinion, some of the more dangerous teachings of Ellen G. White include the following:

(1) Man forms the character;
(2) Man's character is not changed at the second coming of Jesus Christ; rather, man must be sinless prior to the second coming so that he can stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator;
(3) The seal of God is a future event, not a past event, and it is based upon a man's law keeping;
(4) The mark of the beast will be applied in the future to non-sabbatarians;
(5) The blood of Christ was not for the purpose of cancelling sin; and
(6) Christ's act of atonement was not completed on the cross.

2) Can explain Investigative Judgement to me?

According to SDAism, Christ entered the Heavenly sanctuary in 1844 and began reviewing the book of life to determine who is of God and who is not of God. Many SDAs refer to this as "cleansing the sanctuary." Specifically, in Christ's investigative judgment, He is reviewing man's law keeping (or lack thereof). At some point, Christ's review of an individual person will cease and that person's probation will close. According to SDAism, man must be entirely without sin prior to his close of probation in order to be able to maintain salvation and to meet Jesus in the clouds at His second coming.

According to SDAism, the doctrine of the "investigative judgment" is built on the book of Daniel (largely Daniel 8). Much of Christianity views Daniel 8 not as a prophecy of future events, but a prophecy of events that have already transpired. A number of Christians believe that Daniel 8 was fulfilled by the life and choices of Antioches Epiphanes, and that Daniel 8 does not attach any significance whatsoever to 1844.

3) What stance does the church typically take on war?

Traditionally, SDAs were pacificists. They were permitted to join the armed forces only for the purpose of serving in non-combatant roles (such as medics).

Meanwhile, abortion on demand is currently offered at certain SDA-owned hospitals. Go figure!

4) What would you tell someone who has a job which requires them to sometimes work on Saturdays?

In my opinion, the sabbath was given, along with the rest of the law, to Jews (see Deut. 5 and Exodus 31). It was added because of transgressions 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come (see Galatians 3). The law is represented by the slave woman, Hagar, and someone was supposed to get rid of the slave woman (see Galatians 4). If we seek to serve both the law and the Spirit, we commit spiritual adultery (see Romans 7:1-7).

Although I would acknowledge that Colossians 2 and Romans 14 do not extend to me the right to judge a person based on his observance of special days, I would wonder why a person would choose to honor the seventh-day sabbath but not the annual sabbaths. Why, for example, would a person rest on the seventh day, but not also observe the passover, the feasts and the new moons?

5) What exactly is the SDA view on how we should eat? Are some vegetarians whereas other just abstain from unclean foods?

SDAs vary widely on whether or not to eat "clean meats." Many do; others don't. However, much of SDAism (and there are certainly exceptions) avoids any "unclean meats" (such as pork and seafood). It is interesting to note that SDAism teaches that "ceremonial laws" are no longer binding, but somehow makes an exception for the dietary laws contained in the book of Leviticus. I've never understood why SDAism makes this exception.

6) Is there a certain Bible translation that the church supports?

I believe SDAism esteems the KJV highly. However, I don't believe that SDAism has ever forbidden its members from consulting other versions.

An individual SDA prepared a paraphrase of the Scriptures known as The Clear Word. Although the paraphrase is not officially endorsed by SDAism, it is printed on a well-known SDA publishing company and is used by many SDAs. It contains the words of Ellen G. White intermingled with the words of Scripture in such a way that one cannot tell which words are Mrs. White's and which words are from Scripture. I wouldn't recommend it.

7) How does the church feel about christians and drinking?

SDAism basically forbids the consumption of alcohol. For most of its existence, the baptismal vows included a statement regarding the consumption of alchohol. Further, SDA fundamental belief #22 contains a statement against the consumption of alcohol.

It is interesting to note that SDAism frequently takes a stand against certain behaviors that the Scriptures do not prohibit. Alcohol consumption is merely one of them. One might wonder upon whose authority SDAism has made such prohibitions!

8) What is the philosophical and Spiritual implication of Cremation and embalming?

Both as an SDA and as a former SDA, I see none.

9) How do you feel about organ doning?

Both as an SDA and as a former SDA, I would have concluded that this is a personal decision that has no spiritual implications.

These are merely my perceptions and my opinions. If you'd like to discuss them in more detail, I'd be happy to do so.

BFA
 
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common tater

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Thank you, BFA. That is such a concise and lucid answer to the man's question. If I could add a couple of points. In The Great Controversy, p409, Ellen White states that "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.' Daniel 8:14." Friend, that statement in itself should give you pause to think. Danel 8:14? I beg you to find a church that builds itself around John 3:16 instead. Adventism spends all it's time on the books of Daniel and Revelation when what really counts are all those great books in between. God has seen fit to give us the gospel in pretty simple terms so that it is easy to understand. It is so much safer to base your theology on that simple gospel than apocalyptic literature that is written in code and so wide open to multiple (and potentially wrong) interpretations.

I was born, raised, and educated as an Adventist. I was a good kid, but I knew that I just couldn't measure up, no matter how sincerely or hard I tried. I finally just quit going to church and told myself that I'd try and be as good a man as I could and, hopefully, that would shorten the amount of time I would burn before I was consumed (and the doctrines of annihilationism and soul-sleep are direct results of the IJ). I always felt a hole in my heart, though. Something was missing. It was years and years before I decided to give the Lord another crack at me. My first impulse was to go back to the Adventist faith. I began reading the Bible and when I hit Romans, I realized that this was nothing like I'd been taught. I'd been brought up to read my Bible jumping from one proof-text to the next in order to show that SDA doctrines were correct. And there are so many verses that plainly read one way and yet the church has to tell you that "That may be what it says, but it's not what it means." What a difference now that I take my Bible at face value. I can't put the book down. All I can tell you is that if you ask God to help you read that book, He's not going to steer you wrong. Sorry for prattling on so.
 
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mva1985

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I am considering joining an SDA church, but I have some questions.

1) How do you guys feel about Ellen G. White?

I personally believe that she was a messenger used by God. But you must study and reach your own conclusions.


2) Can explain Investigative Judgement to me?

Another topic that you should study with someone. Personally I believe in it.


3) What stance does the church typically take on war?

Typically they take a non-combatant point of view, but the decision is usually left up to the individual.


4) What would you tell someone who has a job which requires them to sometimes work on Saturdays?

I would ask what type of work they were doing on the Sabbath.


5) What exactly is the SDA view on how we should eat? Are some vegetarians whereas other just abstain from unclean foods?

You are not required to be vegetarian to be a member, but are expected to abstain from unclean meats.


6) Is there a certain Bible translation that the church supports?

No.


7) How does the church feel about christians and drinking?

The church's position is not to drink.


8) What is the philosophical and Spiritual implication of Cremation and embalming?

I believe that these are personal choices and have never heard that the church had an official position either way.


9) How do you feel about organ donating?

I think that it is great that people do this, but the choice is left up to the individual.

I hope these brief answers have helped in some way. Feel free to PM me if you like.
 
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mva1985

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you may want to ask those questions in the traditional adventist section as the members there would be able to answer some of your questions.... while you will get answers here, they may or may not aid you in your decision about joining a church...

Stormy,

Thank you for your fairness.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Thank you, BFA. That is such a concise and lucid answer to the man's question. If I could add a couple of points. In The Great Controversy, p409, Ellen White states that "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.' Daniel 8:14." Friend, that statement in itself should give you pause to think. Danel 8:14? I beg you to find a church that builds itself around John 3:16 instead.

The Bible is not the only book that people use out of context. This quote from EGW is also out of context both literary and historical. The beginning of the Adventist movement which came out of the Millerite movement was due to the application of verses such as the one in Daniel which suggested to them the soon Advent of Christ. Historically and theologically important because most Christians at the time were Post millenial, believeing that the world would become peaceful with the advance of Christianity and after a 1000 years of this peace Christ would return and reign.

EGW's opening paragraph says:

The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14. These had been familiar words to all believers in the Lord's soon coming. By the lips of thousands was this prophecy repeated as the watchword of their faith. All felt that upon the events therein foretold depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes. These prophetic days had been shown to terminate in the autumn of 1844. In common with the rest of the Christian world, Adventists then held that the earth, or some portion of it, was the sanctuary. They understood that the cleansing of the sanctuary was the purification of the earth by the fires of the last great day, and that this would take place at the second advent. Hence the conclusion that Christ would return to the earth in 1844.

You don't have to believe in someone's claims or the claims of others to respect them enough to pay attention to context.
 
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StormyOne

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Stormy,

Thank you for your fairness.
MVA, not a problem.... if a person is going to get info about a church at least let them start with those who emphatically believe what that church teaches.... there will be plenty of time to discuss any burning questions with me at a later time....lol
 
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mva1985

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MVA, not a problem.... if a person is going to get info about a church at least let them start with those who emphatically believe what that church teaches.... there will be plenty of time to discuss any burning questions with me at a later time....lol

I hear ya brother.... not a problem! :thumbsup:
 
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Byfaithalone1

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if a person is going to get info about a church at least let them start with those who emphatically believe what that church teaches....

I suppose I know a thing or two about what it means to emphatically believe what SDAism teaches. ;)

Through my experience, I've noticed that certain SDAs may not reveal what they believe to those who are initially interested. Rather, they present those "truths" that they think are the most pallatable. I know that was the approach that I used during my days as an SDA.

I hardly think there is anything wrong with a person understanding many different perspectives on a denomination if one is seriously considering joining that denomination. If SDAism has the truth, you can rest assured that it will stand up in the light of day.

BFA
 
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StormyOne

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I suppose I know a thing or two about what it means to emphatically believe what SDAism teaches. ;)

Through my experience, I've noticed that certain SDAs may not reveal what they believe to those who are initially interested. Rather, they present those "truths" that they think are the most pallatable. I know that was the approach that I used during my days as an SDA.

I hardly think there is anything wrong with a person understanding many different perspectives on a denomination if one is seriously considering joining that denomination. If SDAism has the truth, you can rest assured that it will stand up in the light of day.

BFA
you are missing the point..... allow those who are in it explain it.... then if there are questions the person can ask... you want to share your views about a church in which you don't agree with.... I don't have a problem with that except you need to give your disclaimer at the front end..... your views are not reflective of what the average member sitting in the pew of the sda church believes.... I know my views are different so I would never suggest to anyone that what I believe and what the church teaches are one in the same... that's all I am saying....
 
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Byfaithalone1

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allow those who are in it explain it....

If I really thought they would, that might be a reasonable suggestion.

then if there are questions the person can ask...

And how complete will the answer be if the person only asks a traditional SDA?

you want to share your views about a church in which you don't agree with.... I don't have a problem with that except you need to give your disclaimer at the front end.....

Please re-read the first paragraph of my post. You will notice that I did exactly what you've suggested.

your views are not reflective of what the average member sitting in the pew of the sda church believes....

My post reflects what I believed for 30+ years as a traditional SDA. From my conversations with many other traditional SDAs, I believe my post reflects what many (if not most) traditional SDAs believe. However, I agree with you that my post is not reflective of what you believe or what I currently believe.

BFA
 
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mva1985

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BFA,

When I read your post I felt that some of it was a back-handed attempt to undermine some of our beliefs (you being a former and all).



If I really thought they would, that might be a reasonable suggestion.



And how complete will the answer be if the person only asks a traditional SDA?



Please re-read the first paragraph of my post. You will notice that I did exactly what you've suggested.



My post reflects what I believed for 30+ years as a traditional SDA. From my conversations with many other traditional SDAs, I believe my post reflects what many (if not most) traditional SDAs believe. However, I agree with you that my post is not reflective of what you believe or what I currently believe.

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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When I read your post I felt that some of it was a back-handed attempt to undermine some of our beliefs (you being a former and all).

Which of the comments set out in my post were inaccurate? If I've misrepresented something about the SDA denomination, I'm more than willing to discuss it further.

BFA
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I am considering joining an SDA church, but I have some questions.

1) How do you guys feel about Ellen G. White?

2) Can explain Investigative Judgement to me?

3) What stance does the church typically take on war?

4) What would you tell someone who has a job which requires them to sometimes work on Saturdays?

5) What exactly is the SDA view on how we should eat? Are some vegetarians whereas other just abstain from unclean foods?

6) Is there a certain Bible translation that the church supports?

7) How does the church feel about christians and drinking?

8) What is the philosophical and Spiritual implication of Cremation and embalming?

9) How do you feel about organ doning?

Well to get this back on subject instead of the continuing "it's all about me BFA story"

The Adventist church is not a monolith it has members who hold various views on the subjects. Even the introduction to the 27 (now 28) fundamental beliefs book states that the church can change it views.

1. EGW is thought to be a prophet to a 19th century reformer to a deluded but still a Christian woman.

2. I could explain my understanding of the IJ but since I don't believe it I won't try. The average Adventist I think has a hard time with it and could only give a general description. And there are actually a few different views as it has changed through time. It originated as Christ plotting out the record of sins during the second apartment ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. Today most Adventists view it as Christ showing the rest of the Universe (alleged unfallen worlds) that the people He saves are safe to save ( a horrible term in my view but becoming more popular).

3. Various views traditionally no combative but we have more and more members in the military including very high ranking chaplains.

4. I would tell them to go with their conscience.

5 I think in the US it is about half of Adventists are vegetarians (lacto-ovo). Most still think there are clean and unclean meats though certainly not all.

6. The church has no particular Bible translation. The more fundamentalist the Adventist the more likely they are to go with the KJV. The most popular I would guess is probably the NIV.

7. Most Adventists don't drink due to the health reform history. Some pretend it is Biblically instructed but I think most just see it as a health issue due to the numerous problems related to drinking more then moderately.

8. No views on cremation or embalming that I know of.

9. Don't know that the church has said anything about organ donations. Most Adventists I know of would encourage the donation.

on the Adventist.org site they have position statements on things like abortion etc.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I am considering joining an SDA church, but I have some questions.

1) How do you guys feel about Ellen G. White?

2) Can explain Investigative Judgement to me?

3) What stance does the church typically take on war?

4) What would you tell someone who has a job which requires them to sometimes work on Saturdays?

5) What exactly is the SDA view on how we should eat? Are some vegetarians whereas other just abstain from unclean foods?

6) Is there a certain Bible translation that the church supports?

7) How does the church feel about christians and drinking?

8) What is the philosophical and Spiritual implication of Cremation and embalming?

9) How do you feel about organ doning?

Well to get this back on subject instead of the continuing "it's all about me BFA story"

The Adventist church is not a monolith it has members who hold various views on the subjects. Even the introduction to the 27 (now 28) fundamental beliefs book states that the church can change it views.

1. EGW is thought to be a prophet to a 19th century reformer to a deluded but still a Christian woman.

2. I could explain my understanding of the IJ but since I don't believe it I won't try. The average Adventist I think has a hard time with it and could only give a general description. And there are actually a few different views as it has changed through time. It originated as Christ plotting out the record of sins during the second apartment ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. Today most Adventists view it as Christ showing the rest of the Universe (alleged unfallen worlds) that the people He saves are safe to save ( a horrible term in my view but becoming more popular).

3. Various views traditionally no combative but we have more and more members in the military including very high ranking chaplains.

4. I would tell them to go with their conscience.

5 I think in the US it is about half of Adventists are vegetarians (lacto-ovo). Most still think there are clean and unclean meats though certainly not all.

6. The church has no particular Bible translation. The more fundamentalist the Adventist the more likely they are to go with the KJV. The most popular I would guess is probably the NIV.

7. Most Adventists don't drink due to the health reform history. Some pretend it is Biblically instructed but I think most just see it as a health issue due to the numerous problems related to drinking more then moderately.

8. No views on cremation or embalming that I know of.

9. Don't know that the church has said anything about organ donations. Most Adventists I know of would encourage the donation.

on the Adventist.org site they have position statements on things like abortion etc.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/index.html
 
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Byfaithalone1

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The Adventist church is not a monolith it has members who hold various views on the subjects. Even the introduction to the 27 (now 28) fundamental beliefs book states that the church can change it views.

I acknowledge the existence of progressive SDAs; I support their desire to impact positively their denomination; I admire their perserverence; and I respect their commitment. It is my hope that the voices of progressives will be heard so that--one day--the majority of the current fundamental beliefs are repealed. If it weren't for the fact that I am the father of two small children, I might have been similarly called to work from within to address these issues. God had His own reasons for leading me to where I am today.

In the interest of completeness, I note that the introduction to the fundamental beliefs includes the following:
Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.
Most of the teachings set out in the 28 fundamental beliefs of SDAism are also described in the SDA baptismal vows. Further, in the alternate SDA baptismal vows, the congregant publicly and specifically declares his/her acceptance of the 28 fundamental beliefs of SDAism.

It is true that there are individual SDAs who have reached conclusions that are not consistent with the fundamental beliefs of SDAism and/or the SDA baptismal vows. However, one could hardly suggest that such individual SDAs would be welcome to present their opinions in every SDA congregation throughout North America. In fact, there are a number of individual SDA churches in which one would not be free to contradict the writings of Ellen G. White or to express any doubt regarding the investigative judgment.

I pray that this will one day change, but I note that--at least in my area of the world--it hasn't yet.

BFA
 
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