Some questions on WELS

[LutheranHawkeye]

You are quite wrong, it takes a lot of study to understand the differences and why. I've been through a couple of different classses. I do thouroughly believe in what the WELS teaches and scripture supports it all, that is scripture provong scripture.

I find your arrogance a little freightening. I've never known Lutherans to be this way. I could say much about the LCMS, but I refrain from doing so, instead I try to teach by example.

Perhaps its time for you to bow out of this thread? You have already broken rules within this forum and have failed to make any effort at an appology.

I haven't broken the rules, I'm just trying to answer the OP. Also I haven't been calling people arrogant, or accusing anyone of making nasty comments. I have said nothing offensive, and I have only been inquiring. You brought up a great point that Stude should also consider. A WELS pastor will catechize a Missouri Synod Lutheran in the same way he would catechize a Baptist or unbeliever. Now that brings up a very frightening question: Does the WELS honestly view the LCMS in the same light as Baptists or unbelievers?

 

[joyfulthanks]

The Augsburg Confession, Article VII states: "For the true unity of the Church, it is enough to agree about the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments."

I am wondering how the WELS folks understand this in relation to the whole fellowship issue.

 

[Studeclunker]

The Augsburg Confession, Article VII states: "For the true unity of the Church, it is enough to agree about the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments."

I am wondering how the WELS folks understand this in relation to the whole fellowship issue.

the administration of the Sacraments is not where WELS has trouble with LCMS, in my very limited experiance. It has to do with doctrine and theology and possibly the association of LCMS with a church body WELS didn't like. I only know a small part of the story concerning the split and closing of altar/pulpit fellowship between the two. As much of a mess as the LCMS congregation here in Redding is, I don't blame this WELS congregation for their low opinion of LCMS.

Jim, with all due respect and no wish to offend, the behaviour of WELS to other Lutheran believers is quite arrogant. They are saying, "we alone are the true belivers and all other Lutherans are completely wrong." Your comment supports this idea:

...but instruction classes for a former LCMS member are in the eyes of the WELS Pastor just as important as classes for a Baptist or unbeleiver.

In otherwords, no one but a WELS member knows anything about Lutheran doctrine and theology? Or at least theirs is so skewed and hetrodox that they aren't even Lutheran anymore?

I don't mean to attack you, Jim, your posts are quite correct as to the WELS position. It's just really frustrating to be told one is an ignoramus by someone who doesn't really believe very much differently. I am leaving LCMS because of the same differences that the WELS have with them, or at least some of them. Personally, I'd rather not deal with this hassle. I'm sure there are LCMS congregations that are still true to correct doctrine, theology, and are still using a Lutheran liturgy. It's just the local congregation, the only local congregation, has gone hetrodox, thanks to the encouragement of St. Louis and the Ablaze movement. Also, this problem isn't new. I found out recently that the Anderson WELS church started out as LCMS.

So, no, this isn't something I want to do. It's something I have to do... Either that or ascribe to the patent dis-honesty (not to mention hetrodoxy) of the Ablaze movement, which is NOT an option!

 

[BigNorsk]

The Augsburg Confession, Article VII states: "For the true unity of the Church, it is enough to agree about the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments."

I am wondering how the WELS folks understand this in relation to the whole fellowship issue.

WELS, and for that matter, the LCMS take the word "Gospel" there not in the narrow sense but basically as the equivalent of the scriptures. So all doctrine needs to be in agreement.

Marv

 

[dinkime]

Jim, with all due respect and no wish to offend, the behaviour of WELS to other Lutheran believers is quite arrogant. They are saying, "we alone are the true belivers and all other Lutherans are completely wrong." Your comment supports this idea:


In otherwords, no one but a WELS member knows anything about Lutheran doctrine and theology? Or at least theirs is so skewed and hetrodox that they aren't even Lutheran anymore?

i am not sure where you are getting this -- no where does WELS say that they are the only true believers...i have never heard a WELS person say otherwise...and your comments are very upsetting...

i am sorry this church is not working with you in the way YOU want them to, but sometimes we have to work through trials (ask Jesus about His trials, way worse than a long class and a year without communing)...

your comments make it sound like you think WELS are all very judgmental of everyone and everything -- your recent posts in here are very judgemental to the WELS -- it is posts like these that cause pastors to have people to take the classes -- to UNDERSTAND the reality of the doctrines & beliefs & traditions, not just what they hear or think...

with anything, you go with tradition/protocall -- would you like a pastor at another church to let in just anyone? even someone who comes from a similar stand point?

this is how the church you are at works with new members -- they have a class, it is 16 weeks...at my church it is 11 weeks...even if the pastor met with you a few times, he would meet with you many more times if you were unable to take the class before you could commune...sometimes we, as humans, have to work with the human way of things (which we may not agree with, but does not mean they are arrogent or wrong!)

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

i am not sure where you are getting this -- no where does WELS say that they are the only true believers...i have never heard a WELS person say otherwise...and your comments are very upsetting...

i am sorry this church is not working with you in the way YOU want them to, but sometimes we have to work through trials (ask Jesus about His trials, way worse than a long class and a year without communing)...

your comments make it sound like you think WELS are all very judgmental of everyone and everything -- your recent posts in here are very judgemental to the WELS -- it is posts like these that cause pastors to have people to take the classes -- to UNDERSTAND the reality of the doctrines & beliefs & traditions, not just what they hear or think...

with anything, you go with tradition/protocall -- would you like a pastor at another church to let in just anyone? even someone who comes from a similar stand point?

this is how the church you are at works with new members -- they have a class, it is 16 weeks...at my church it is 11 weeks...even if the pastor met with you a few times, he would meet with you many more times if you were unable to take the class before you could commune...sometimes we, as humans, have to work with the human way of things (which we may not agree with, but does not mean they are arrogent or wrong!)

Comparing Jesus' trials to converting from LCMS to WELS seems a bit extreme, and I use the term convert because this is the impression of switching Synods that I get from Jim. I think what many Missouri Synod Lutherans on here are finding out is that maybe the WELS is farther away from us then what we thought. At least that's what I'm thinking right now.

 

[dinkime]

it may be an extreme comparison, but this thread is making it sound like WELS is going to force him from his faith...an extreme example may be what is needed...

as for the differences the LCMS has not realized before -- i have mentioned in other threads as well -- i have been to LCMS churches that do not follow what their doctrine is (close communion for one) -- nothing happens in those churches for false teaching, in WELS it would...it is not so much differing doctrine, it is more of the actual follow through for those who do not follow

 

[Archaenfel]

Well, we should not be so harsh on the WELS traditions, or those of any church which practices closed communion. I believe one of the epistles talks on the subject of taking communion frivilously as "eating and drinking to one's own damnation".

The concept of closed communion is often seen as a *protection* to those who do not believe as we do, so that we do not participate in the damning of their souls. Only when one is prepared to take communion properly is one permitted - that is the tradition.

The sixteen week course is not unreasonable when one considers the two years most children go through to be full communicants. It *is* unfortunate that something could not be worked out which would allow you to take the course more expeditiously. Still, I went through college at a small Engineering school - I'm used to courses being presented once a year.

Let us be respectful of our WELS cousins for holding to their traditions. Let us also pray for Stude', that the Lord would show him a path which would be the most beneficial for his faith.

( I sound so pious ... somebody slap me. )

 

[Studeclunker]

Dinki, this is the third time I've started going to a WELS church. ie: this is the third WELS congregation I've been exposed to. The other two pastors were much more willing to work with me. The first I went to was after I decided to leave ELCA. He was very sympathetic and we talked uncountable times, both in person and on the phone. The second pastor was cooler in his reception. This time I'd come from LCMS to a new area and he really didn't want to be bothered, though he did talk at length with me. I eventually found an LCMS congregation on the other side of town. Over the years I'd say I've spent about two years, combined, at a WELS church. I don't make this kind of decision (changing denoms) lightly. In fact, I usually investegate the denom, sect, or Synod, I'm considering quite closely.

No, Dinki, I don't think they are trying to force me from my faith. Frankly, this congregation doesn't really care either way. Fact of the matter is, they're very, very close to what I believe in the first place. So close that there's no need to go to any elaborate means to convert me. The problem is that their over-cautious approach is injurious to my consience. The Bible tells us to Commune often. Some people translate that to mean every Sunday, others think it means once a month. It means, at least, as often as it's offered. So, by denying me Communion, this denom forces me into a connundrum: do I go back to LCMS till WELS will Commune me? Or do I simply refrain, as I am currently being asked to, and disobey the command to Commune. The Pastor said he's sure I understand Real Presence and if it were up to him he'd commune us. In fact, he's offered to serve us Communion in his office. The Pastor is afraid of injuring the consience of any of his congregation. But what about my consience? Dinki, I've waited five months so far. August is nearly four months away! Then it's another four months additional! The Pastor won't even give me the materials to start studying. Frustrated doesn't even begin to describe it!

Another thing; WELS practices CLOSED Communion. ie; our congregation, mayyyybe someone from another WELS or ELS congregation, and that's all! Close Communion, requires only a discussion with the pastor to ensure that the communicant understands Real Presence.

You are entirely right about LCMS. There has always been a problem with rogue congregations that the Synod won't deal with. I've been to several where I went out to check the sign and make sure I was at a Lutheran church. You can be sure I never went back. It's this inconsistancy that's driving me away, from LCMS, to the connundrum I am currently facing with WELS.

Actually, Dinki, I'm one of those who won't blindly follow. If a Pastor says, "This is what we believe," he'd better be ready to give an answer as to why. I'll ask every time. Then, I'll go search the scriptures and the BOC for support information. I hate to be embarrased when someone says to me, "can you back that statement up?" and I have no answer beyond, "well, this is what my Pastor said." I am responsible for what I believe, not my Pastor. The Lord will question/hold me responsible for my beliefs, not my Pastor.

There seems to be a concerted effort on the part of the Liberalist movement in this country infiltrating all the denominations. Lutherans aren't the only ones dealing with this problem. ELCA was overthrown about fifteen years ago. LCMS is seemingly on the verge of falling now. WELS seems to be standing firm. For that they are to be commended.

As to the congregations; between WELS and LCMS I see very little difference. Both have a woeful lack of understanding of their Synod's Doctrines and Theologies, with WELS a bit better off. My experiance has been that the WELS have superior pastors. The current one is excellent, though young and seemingly intimidated by his elders.

You know, contrary to apperances, I didn't start this thread to whine about or bash WELS. I have the utmost respect for the denomination, it's called servants and congregations. The system involved though, frustrates the, um, snot out of me!

And no, I don't want any cheese with my whine, thank you!

 

[DaRev]

The Pastor said he's sure I understand Real Presence and if it were up to him he'd commune us. In fact, he's offered to serve us Communion in his office.

I find this statement interesting. In the Lutheran Church it is the pastor who determines who can and cannot commune at the altar. It seems that at this particular WELS congregation it is the authority of the laity to decide. This is neither Biblical nor Confessional. I'd be interested in hearing what our WELS brothers and sisters have to say about this statement.

I don't agree with a lot of what the WELS teaches. Some of what they teach is not biblical but rather human tradition. But that aside, I have to agree with the notion that the pastor and him alone has the authority to admit or deny one from the Table of the Lord because that is his call. He is the one who has to stand before the Lord on the Last Day to make an account. Unfortunately, there is no set standard for such instruction, even in the LCMS. It's basically up to the pastor to make that determination.

 

[seajoy]

Well, I've busy all week and have not been on the computer....I've certainly seen a lot of WELS bashing here lately, and I'm sure satan is enjoying the whole thing very much.

But, here is my take on things with Stude. He wants a confessional Lutheran Church...he has found one. I think the Pastor is totally wrong in not doing instruction at several times per year. Our church has it going on all the time. I think the Pastor taking his time on this is very strange. I would ask that Stude talk with him one more time, before just bowing out.

Stude, when you are talking about "we", who is the other person taking instruction with you? Is ths person an LCMS person, or something else? Or are you alone...did I miss something?

Anyway, I think the pastor is very intimidated by his congregation. That is strange. It happens in all denoms....but it's very wrong. Try giving the pastor in Anderson a call. Hubby and I will be driving a ways to our new church as well. We are moving to the land of the Reformed.

 

[joyfulthanks]

The problem is that their over-cautious approach is injurious to my consience. The Bible tells us to Commune often. Some people translate that to mean every Sunday, others think it means once a month. It means, at least, as often as it's offered. So, by denying me Communion, this denom forces me into a connundrum: do I go back to LCMS till WELS will Commune me? Or do I simply refrain, as I am currently being asked to, and disobey the command to Commune. The Pastor said he's sure I understand Real Presence and if it were up to him he'd commune us. In fact, he's offered to serve us Communion in his office. The Pastor is afraid of injuring the consience of any of his congregation.

Stude, you've mentioned that you have a choice between going back to LCMS to commune, or refraining. Actually, you have a third option. The pastor has offered to commune you in his office.

I don't agree with what is happening to you, however, I think you have to think about this from the pastor's perspective. Obviously, he feels that to commune you publicly would be offensive to some members of his congregation. He is trying to find a middle way - one where you can be cared for spiritually, and his congregation won't made to stumble over an offense.

I know that it would take a good deal of humility to commune privately, but wouldn't that be better than not communing at all? Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't be upset. I know that I would be upset if I were in your situation. But I think given the imperfect situation that exists, the pastor is trying to do the best he can for all the members of his flock - you included.

Don't let an offense get in the way of receiving the gift of the Lord's body and blood that is being offered to you - even if it must be in private. Communion is all the more precious when we are going through seasons of trial.

 

[DaRev]

It's just the local congregation, the only local congregation, has gone hetrodox,

Heterodoxy has to do with doctrine, not practice. What false doctrine exactly is your local congregation promoting?

 

[porterross]

I find this statement interesting. In the Lutheran Church it is the pastor who determines who can and cannot commune at the altar. It seems that at this particular WELS congregation it is the authority of the laity to decide. This is neither Biblical nor Confessional. I'd be interested in hearing what our WELS brothers and sisters have to say about this statement.

I don't agree with a lot of what the WELS teaches. Some of what they teach is not biblical but rather human tradition. But that aside, I have to agree with the notion that the pastor and him alone has the authority to admit or deny one from the Table of the Lord because that is his call. He is the one who has to stand before the Lord on the Last Day to make an account. Unfortunately, there is no set standard for such instruction, even in the LCMS. It's basically up to the pastor to make that determination.

emphasis mine


Exactly! As we are, once again, in an area with limited, Confessional Lutheran worship services, I am glad that the Anglican church sees it the same way.

I know that will get your goat, but I have to do what I have to do until we settle at the family home near Cambridge. No problem getting proper Confessional Lutheranism in that part of the country. It's awash with it.

Now, that doesn't mean I'll walk into any CofE service and receive the Sacrament. I want to know where the MALE vicar stands on real presence and he has the right to know that I am not a member of the Anglican Church.

It is troubling that a Christian cannot be examined by an ordained clergyman and be offered the Sacrament if found to be in full understanding. The idea of being denied the Body and Blood of Christ for an extended period of time is just so sad. I feel for you, Stude, I truly do.

 

[DaRev]

I know that will get your goat,

*grits teeth while grinning*

 

[Studeclunker]

Seajoy, thank you. I think you have what I'm trying to say, trying and not succeeding. Yes, Joy, I could accept the Pastor's offer to take private communion. I have two objections to this practice, however.
The first; is that should this be found out by the greater congregation, there could be trouble. I don't wish to get the fellow in trouble.
Second, Communion, by it's very nature is a corporate activity.
Other than that, I've no objection.

As to the WELS bashing; this wasn't my intention from the start. I just wanted to discuss a frustration that's been eating at me day by day. So forgive me, brothers and sisters in WELS, as we are all of us Lutheran, WELS, LCMS and even... gulp... (gasp, dare I say it?) ELCA. It's just that some of our Synods have strayed further from the truth than others. Though I'll likely be joining WELS, I still hope that LCMS can be brought back from the edge of the pit that ELCA has plunged headfirst into.

 

[LilLamb219]

MOD HAT ON

The OP has written to me requesting the thread be closed so I am honoring this.

MOD HAT OFF