Some questions for an educated Calvinist

twin1954 · Jun 10, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Calvinism is so contradictory - Am I then being stubborn in refusing to accept God's sovereignty? Yet then, does not this very stubbornness itself portray my own choice? Or is God sovereignly, at least for the moment, making me stubborn?

God is not the author of sin, so He could not be making me stubborn (James 1.13-14)

Sorry but you still haven't answered the problem you have. You are your own savior in your system.

Caleb Taylor · Jun 10, 2014

You are your own savior in your system.

Jesus is my Savior. I have chosen Him for myself (as a response to His grace calling me to Himself). I have made Him my Savior, just as a child chooses his own hero...

What do you make of this verse? -

Psalm 2:12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Caleb Taylor · Jun 10, 2014

The problems with Calvinism are not so much the excessive exaltation of God, but other implications of the theology: limits placed on means/effort in evangelism including confident prayer and expectation, introspection as to whether one is elect, elitism, antinomianism, arrogance, superiority, inequality in class, race, gender... Not that all in fact do these things, but there is risk as the theology of Calvinistic predestination naturally implies these things...

hedrick · Jun 10, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
The problems with Calvinism are not so much the excessive exaltation of God, but other implications of the theology: limits placed on means/effort in evangelism including confident prayer and expectation, introspection as to whether one is elect, elitism, arrogance, superiority, inequality in class, race, gender... Not that all in fact do these things, but there is risk as the theology of Calvinistic predestination naturally implies these things...

Do you know actual Calvinists that show these things?

The only real impact I see on evangelism is that Calvinists don't see themselves as "soul winners." They see themselves as planting seeds which God will use. They certainly accept God's promises, so anyone can confidently pray to God, depending upon his promises.

Introspection as to whether one is elect has been a problem at times in the history of Calvinism. I haven't seen it as an issue in my lifetime. I think most Calvinists will tell you that if you need assurance, you don't get it by looking for signs that you're elect, but by focusing on Christ, and the promises that God will not abandon anyone who calls on him. Those promises don't conflict with election; if you think they do, you need to look more carefully at what Calvinists actually say.

"arrogance, superiority, inequality in class, race, gender" Huh? I haven't seen that in any Calvinists I know. I see it now and then in postings like this, but I don't see any evidence that it's real.

A New Dawn · Jun 10, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Jesus is my Savior. I have chosen Him for myself (as a response to His grace calling me to Himself). I have made Him my Savior, just as a child chooses his own hero...

What do you make of this verse? -

Did you make Him your savior because you needed a savior?

A New Dawn · Jun 10, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Rom 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

We are talking about our decision to reject or accept the truth are we not?

I think the term "the truth" is relative in this verse. What truth are you talking about?

twin1954 · Jun 10, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Jesus is my Savior. I have chosen Him for myself (as a response to His grace calling me to Himself). I have made Him my Savior, just as a child chooses his own hero...

What do you make of this verse? -

You made Him your Savior? So you admit that you actually saved yourself by making Him something He wasn't before. You see, you can't get around the simple logic. You saved yourself because you did something the lost didn't do.

I am not familiar with the translation(?) you are using. Is it actually a translation or a paraphrase?

But nonetheless the verse, actually the whole Psalm, is a warning to rebels. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) but that doesn't mean that they can or that they will. The Lord Jesus said in John 5:40 that ye will not come to me that you might have life and again in John 6:44 no man can come to me except that the Father draw him. And in verse 45 He says that every man who hears and is taught of the Father comes to Him.

I will leave the hero thing alone. Now I am done debating. If you have more questions that aren't bait I will answer them to the best of my ability but I will not be drawn into a trap or into your agenda. When you can show that you genuinely want to know what Calvinists actually believe then ask your questions. I am not going to waste my time giving you fodder to twist into straw and devise a characterization of the truth.

hedrick · Jun 10, 2014

twin1954 said:
I am not familiar with the translation(?) you are using. Is it actually a translation or a paraphrase?

NIV, following AV. The passage is one with lots of debates. Apparently the MT actually is "son" (in Aramaic) but there are good enough reasons to suspect corruption that many translations use something else.

If "son" is original, I would take that to be a reference to the King of Israel, since 12:7 refers to the King as God's son. Of course Christians will see a reference to Jesus, who is, after all the King / Messiah. But in that context, this isn't choosing Jesus, it's submitting to him.

Even if "kiss his son" is wrong, the Ps is still about submitting to God through submitted to the King.

Caleb Taylor · Jun 10, 2014

Yes. The need for a Savior must always be acknowledged. That acknowledgement itself is not done automatically by God: we must do it, BUT Jesus is exalted, not our choice of Him... When we choose to exalt Jesus, are we then exalting our choice? If I say "the King is great, long live the King..." am I exalting the King, or am I exalting my CHOICE to say that? Our choice to follow Jesus in no way diminishes His glory, it rather increases it...

Caleb Taylor · Jun 10, 2014

I think it was NIV, but I don't think that is an issue...

God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) but that doesn't mean that they can or that they will.

That is total heresy. Jesus said our gospel must be understandable to children. You are taking Jesus' words beyond the face-value of what they say. If He said we are to do something that meant we are to do it full stop. Don't add anything to it.

If you wish to bring in the doctrine of inability, it would be better to go to something like John 15.5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

But note what he SAYS here (without reading any extra things into it):
(1) "Remain in me" (Our choice)
(2) "Apart from me,..." (i.e. we are enabled through our choice of Him. It is very, very clear. Nothing about predestination.)

Predestination verses in the bible are a very very small minority, and must be looked at in terms of the over-whelming number of other statements.

BTW, Jonathan Edwards, was a great Calvinist which I really respect. I am not saying all Calvinists are bad or have traits I mentioned, only that I am with Charles Finney in saying that the doctrine espoused by Edwards can be dangerous at times and leave people with the wrong impression about God...

Caleb Taylor · Jun 10, 2014

[Calvinists] certainly accept God's promises, so anyone can confidently pray to God, depending upon his promises...

But doesn't this on face value appear to be going against the Calvinist notion of predestination, that everything is set in stone? Why even pray if one is a true Calvinist? We can't change what God has set already...

Caleb Taylor · Jun 10, 2014

Most of the scriptures regarding predestination in the bible (Rom 9 etc) are about OT figures. Others, are always about positive things in the believer.

A CHALLENGE TO ALL CALVINISTS: Show me the verse where God predestines/predetermines sin or a lack of prayer or lack of positive attributes (which we often lack in) in the believer...

AMR · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Most of the scriptures regarding predestination in the bible (Rom 9 etc) are about OT figures. Others, are always about positive things in the believer.

A CHALLENGE TO ALL CALVINISTS: Show me the verse where God predestines sin or a lack of prayer or lack of positive attributes (which we often lack in) in the believer...

Caleb Taylor said:
Just trying to clarify things. Many thanks. Caleb.

You went from just trying to clarify to throwing down gauntlets? Sigh.

By good and necessary consequence of the teachings of Scripture on the sovereignty of God, we can certainly conclude that all that happens or does not happen was part of the decree of God. Nevertheless, God wills righteously, what men do wickedly.

http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u244978-e11255/
http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u244978-e78925/

Caleb Taylor · Jun 11, 2014

God wills righteously, what men do wickedly.

That's not in the bible...

However, thank you all for your clarification. I have, believe it or not, gained some knowledge of Calvinist beliefs through this forum... And I thank you all for that... I still do think it is all very contradictory. However, thanks anyway. There's probably not much point in continuing... See you all in heaven if you love Jesus. Bye...

A New Dawn · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Yes. The need for a Savior must always be acknowledged. That acknowledgement itself is not done automatically by God: we must do it, BUT Jesus is exalted, not our choice of Him... When we choose to exalt Jesus, are we then exalting our choice? If I say "the King is great, long live the King..." am I exalting the King, or am I exalting my CHOICE to say that? Our choice to follow Jesus in no way diminishes His glory, it rather increases it...

So you went into this relationship with God with the endpoint in mind?

hedrick · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
But doesn't this on face value appear to be going against the Calvinist notion of predestination, that everything is set in stone? Why even pray if one is a true Calvinist? We can't change what God has set already...

I'm not sure whether I actually accept predestination in the Calvinist sense, but I think you misunderstand it. Predestination as understood by almost all Calvinists includes "compatibilism," the idea that responsible human choice and predestination are compatible. Everything is part of God's plan. But it still happens through human decisions. While God will sometimes intervene directly, normally things happen through natural and human activity. God still responds to prayer, and honors his promises.

Skala · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
The main point of Arminianism is that God does not predetermine things as set in stone...

That is not true, unless you embrace open theism. Even Armininaism must deal with the fact that if God foreknows "Bob" will accept Christ in the year 2016, then Bob has no choice but to accept Christ, otherwise God's foreknowledge would have been wrong. It's not as if Bob can suddenly change his mind, because God cannot know the future wrongly.

Skala · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
The problems with Calvinism are not so much the excessive exaltation of God, but other implications of the theology: limits placed on means/effort in evangelism including confident prayer and expectation, introspection as to whether one is elect, elitism, antinomianism, arrogance, superiority, inequality in class, race, gender... Not that all in fact do these things, but there is risk as the theology of Calvinistic predestination naturally implies these things...

On the contrary, Calvinism is the most consistent when it comes to prayer and evangelism.

Since God is absolutely sovereign, that is why prayer works. If Arminianism is true and God cannot do anything to effectually cause a person to turn to Jesus, and save them, then your prayers for God to "save your lost loved ones" are meaningless: God's hands are tied. But when the Calvinist prays, he is asking a prayer that God can actually answer.

As for evangelism, the Calvinist evangelist knows that his efforts will not be wasted. God will use him (and all evangelists worldwide) to reach his elect and bring them to salvation. God has a 100% success rate, thus, in Calvinism, evangelists (the means God uses to save the elect) have a 100% success rate. It is the Arminian who has not assurance of his work. He tries his best to get people to accept the gospel, and would be tempted to shave off the rough edges of the gospel and doctrine in order to "persuade" as many people as possible to make some sort of intellectual decision for Jesus. How does the Arminian evangelist sleep at night? Knowing that if he had just worded his gospel presentation differently, that person he was witnessing to might have accepted, rather than rejected, Jesus. How does he sleep at night knowing that his bad presentation of the gospel caused a person to go to hell for all eternity? The Calvinist has no dilemma. He just preaches the un-altered gospel, and let's God do His work and save whomever He wants to save.

Skala · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
Calvinism is so contradictory - Am I then being stubborn in refusing to accept God's sovereignty? Yet then, does not this very stubbornness itself portray my own choice? Or is God sovereignly, at least for the moment, making me stubborn?

God is not the author of sin, so He could not be making me stubborn (James 1.13-14)

God uses means to bring about the ends. If you are currently rejecting the truth of Calvinism, if you are ever persuaded, it is because God works through means to change your mind. (like He did me)

Either way, whether you accept or reject Calvinism, it's God's decree. It's not contradictory to say that you reject Calvinism but this is also God's plan. That's 100% perfect consistency with the things Calvinism teaches, not contradiction as you asserted.

Skala · Jun 11, 2014

Caleb Taylor said:
That's not in the bible...

However, thank you all for your clarification. I have, believe it or not, gained some knowledge of Calvinist beliefs through this forum... And I thank you all for that... I still do think it is all very contradictory. However, thanks anyway. There's probably not much point in continuing... See you all in heaven if you love Jesus. Bye...

Actually its your own theology that is contradictory.

You pray for God to save your lost loved ones - but He can't do anything, because human free will is too strong.

You pray for God to protect you while you travel - but He can't do anything, because free will is too strong and God cannot control the actions and decisions of the other drivers on the road.

You pray for God to let you have the job you applied for - but God can't do anything to answer your prayer because the employer has free will and God cannot make that decision. Whether you get the job or not literally has nothing to do with anything God did to change the outcome. therefore, if you pray that you get the job, and you actually do get it, you are inconsistently "thanking God" that he answered your prayer. The only way you can consistently thank God for answering your prayer is by setting aside your beliefs on God's sovereignty and human free will for the moment.

You pray for your evangelism and ministry to be successful - but God cannot answer your prayer because He literally has nothing to do with whether or your ministry is successful - it's ultimately up to whether or not the people you minister to will use their free wills in the proper way.

I hope you see, only people who think God is sovereign (ie. Calvinists) can pray for God to actually do anything.

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