Some questions about your denomination

[DerSchweik]

Oh, well. It was worth a try.

 

[JDIBe]

Most congregations that identify with the RM have instrumental music. A small minority do not. If you prefer a capella, go to a church that practices a capella. If you prefer instruments, go to one that uses instruments. No big deal either way.

A small point of clarification. I believe most congregations within the RM do NOT have IM. They are certainly not a "small minority". I would love to see some numbers here. (The infamous "20%", again? ) Without delving into the particulars (there are certainly enough threads on the subject here) I would suggest a study on the matter and then let your conscience be your guide. For some, it is not a matter of simple preference as it is for others.

That being said, I am very happy to be a part of the RM. I enjoy the extremely high view members have for the Scriptures as the Word of God, and the heavy reliance on Them in discussions on Biblical issues and application to everday life.

The main problem you will find within the RM is the occasional lack of uniformity of thought on some issues (i.e. IM). This is a consequence of a lack of central government (well, besides Heaven ). This means since there is no authority on high to tell you what the Bible means, you are expected to find out for yourself.

This actually can be a GOOD thing however. For one, members by necessity, are generally more well-versed than most in the Scriptures since they have to be. Self-study and interpretation is encouraged. Two, there is a certain latitude given the individual believer on certain issues (within reason) so one can be a member of the RM but not have to line up perfectly with "church doctrine". Three, since there is no central goverment, heresy spreads very slowly. Quite often many radical ideas in denominations come from seminary educated liberal theologians imposing their opinions from the top down. Since there is no "top" and only one standard (the Bible), it makes the RM churches very hard to infiltrate completely. It acts very similar to the world wide web in that respect, you may take down part of it, but the whole remains.

But generally, I think you will find we all have much more in common than in difference. I have found a love for God and my fellow man here, both brothers and sisters in Christ and those outside, and a reliance on God rather than man. I honestly feel this is the best place for me. If you could find me another church that is closer to the Bible and more doctrinely sound, I'd be there in a second. So far, I haven't.

Keep checking around. I pray that God will bless you and lead you to the place you are supposed to be.

Good luck.

 

[Sophia7]

A small point of clarification. I believe most congregations within the RM do NOT have IM. They are certainly not a "small minority". I would love to see some numbers here. (The infamous "20%", again? ) Without delving into the particulars (there are certainly enough threads on the subject here) I would suggest a study on the matter and then let your conscience be your guide. For some, it is not a matter of simple preference as it is for others.

I don't have any statistics, but I would think that since the Independent Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ (both of which I'm pretty sure usually have IM), are part of the RM, as well as the non-IM Churches of Christ, non-IM churches probably are a minority. At CF, though, most of the RM members who post in this forum seem to be non-IM.

 

[JDIBe]

After some quick checking with Wikipedia:

Churches of Christ: 13,000 cong. (N. America) 40,000 (worldwide)
Christian Churches: ~6000 cong. (N. America) (?)
Disciples of Christ: 3777 cong. (N. America) (?)

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Churches_and_Churches_of_Christ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church_(Disciples_of_Christ)

So after some quick checking, 6000 + 3777 = 9777 which is actually less than 13,000 in N.A.! At least in N.A., cOC's appear to be the majority! A few of those might be IM coC's, but that would def. be the exception, not the rule (even less than 20% ), so I would think that the statement that "a small minority of churches are non-IM" would be wrong, unless Clintonian math is involved. This might explain why you see so many non-IM posters here.

But, as others have said, the Church is not a Democracy, it is a Monarchy. Numbers don't really matter so much as what God wishes from us. I would suggest a serious thorough study of the matter and then conduct yourself and teach in a way that is most in accordance with God's Word.

 

[SilentRunner]

Church of Christ, Christian Church...The way most of you refer to them makes me believe that most of you believe that they are denominations. (The Disciples of Christ certainly are, although at one time was not.)

That sign outside your church building should read "Christians meet here"...not "The Church of Christ" or "The Christian Church". Using those two phrases leads everyone to think that they are denominations. Denominations are abominations.

 

[SilentRunner]

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[wmssid]

To the Forum:

If you wish to be more certain that your religion is pure, you should begin by purging the word, "Christ" from your vocabulary.

This is from the Beast and the Mother of Prostitutes.

"Christos" is in the Bible, but not "Christ."

"Christos" is banned in all English Bible translations 490 times.

"in christoo of Iesou", Romans 8.1, and others; is mistranslated, "in Christ Jesus."

But, there is no "Christ."

"christoo" means, "in anointed", [Body] of Iesou."

"Iesous Christos" reads, "Iesous Anointed."

This error, "Christ Jesus" is in all English Bible translations many times.

Also, "church" is not in the Bible.

The God and the Lamb founded New Jerusalem to replace the "Called-out" (Ek Klesia; 2 words), in AD 77.
The Papacy and the Pope founded, the "church."

Those outside New Jerusalem were called, "dogs" by the Son of God; Rev 22.15.

wmssid

 

[- DRA -]

To the Forum:

If you wish to be more certain that your religion is pure, you should begin by purging the word, "Christ" from your vocabulary.

This is from the Beast and the Mother of Prostitutes.

"Christos" is in the Bible, but not "Christ."

"Christos" is banned in all English Bible translations 490 times.

"in christoo of Iesou", Romans 8.1, and others; is mistranslated, "in Christ Jesus."

But, there is no "Christ."

"christoo" means, "in anointed", [Body] of Iesou."

"Iesous Christos" reads, "Iesous Anointed."

This error, "Christ Jesus" is in all English Bible translations many times.

Also, "church" is not in the Bible.

The God and the Lamb founded New Jerusalem to replace the "Called-out" (Ek Klesia; 2 words), in AD 77.
The Papacy and the Pope founded, the "church."

Those outside New Jerusalem were called, "dogs" by the Son of God; Rev 22.15.

wmssid

Okay, must we retain all the Koine Greek words and Aramaic words of the New Testament, or are "Cristos" and "ekklesia" the only Koine Greek words we must retain? In essence, the issue is whether or not it was okay to translate the original writings to another language? I believe it is. Jesus and the apostles frequently quoted from the Septuagint Version - the Hebrew Scriptures translated into Greek. Therefore, I conclude it is reasonable and acceptable to translate the Scriptures into languages other than the original.

Let me see if I've got this right ... in A.D. 77 the called out (ekklesia) ceased to be, and were replaced by New Jerusalem. So, that means no one today is called out, right? If not called out to follow the Lord and be forgiven of sins, please explain how one makes the transition from sinner to pleasing God.

 

[plmarquette]

Are we talking about restoration people or Unitarians?

 

[figuringthingsout]

The only thing that bothers me is that there seems to be too much emphasis on musical instruments in church. I realize that the Restoration movement wants to emulate the early Christian church as much as possible. However, since the early believers often went to synagogue, learning from the Torah and living in a Jewish style, it is obvious then that worship would have included instruments. They also would have kept God's festivals and the Sabbath day.


one of the biggest of these types of views being allowed in many churches today is the acceptance of practicing gays and lesbians.
nasa1

I was born in and raised in the CoC/Christian Church. I have never been to a CoC that didn't use instruments. I didn't evn know they exsisted until I went to bible college. For me, the music is the most moving part of the service (the entire worship service is important -I really LOVE music though).

I have NEVER heard of any CoC accepting the gay/lesbian lifestyle as okay. I have some (disstant) gay friends-hate the sin-love the sinner.....aren't we all sinners?!? I would not accpet it as okay, and I have never heard of any CoC accepting that lifestyle, ever. It would be promptly address in the CoC.

 

[Bryan Cotton]

I've been looking into the CoC and visited one recently. I went to the local churches websiute and skimmed through some of there sermons. I listened to one on "not using instruments."

I just totally didn't buy it at all. The main focus was "we don't have authority to use instruments when praising/worshiping" God.

Here's the part were I might be wrong and correct me if need be.

In the OT instruments was not frowned upon and I beleive they, along with dances, was ok. In fact I don't recall anyone every being rebuked for using an instrument. I beleive David was a harp playing dude who played along with his songs, pslams, or whatever.

At what point in the NT was this sort of action rebuked. If it was ok to do it in the OT, why is it not ok now? The only things I can think that we don't do in the OT in regards to the NT is things under the law. I don't think instruments is cover under the law OR under grace.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[- DRA -]

I've been looking into the CoC and visited one recently. I went to the local churches websiute and skimmed through some of there sermons. I listened to one on "not using instruments."

I just totally didn't buy it at all. The main focus was "we don't have authority to use instruments when praising/worshiping" God.

Here's the part were I might be wrong and correct me if need be.

In the OT instruments was not frowned upon and I beleive they, along with dances, was ok. In fact I don't recall anyone every being rebuked for using an instrument. I beleive David was a harp playing dude who played along with his songs, pslams, or whatever.

At what point in the NT was this sort of action rebuked. If it was ok to do it in the OT, why is it not ok now? The only things I can think that we don't do in the OT in regards to the NT is things under the law. I don't think instruments is cover under the law OR under grace.

Sorry for rambling.

No doubt, David played instruments during Old Testament times (i.e., while the Israelites were under the law of Moses). Psalm 150 is the classic example given for instrumental music from the Old Testament. However, the problem is that singing is authorized under the New Testament (i.e., the law of Christ) per passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, Acts 16:25, and James 5:13.

Instruments aren't rebuked in the New Testament - they just simply aren't authorized. Note Matthew 21:25. There are but two sources of authority per Jesus: from heaven (i.e., from God) and from men. Per Colossians 3:17, we are to have authority from the Lord (the meaning of "in the name of the Lord") for all we say and do ... assuming our goal is to please and be accepted by Him.

 

[Bryan Cotton]

No doubt, David played instruments during Old Testament times (i.e., while the Israelites were under the law of Moses).

The law of moses has nothing to do with insturments. While they were under the law at that time, the things that they did that was not in refernece to the law has no bearing on what we do today. If that was the case, all preachers need to stop teachings and preaching from the book of psalms and proverbs. Those were written by men that was under the law.

Instruments aren't rebuked in the New Testament - they just simply aren't authorized.

That's a dangerous statement to me. How many things do we do today that were not "authorized" in the NT. We can just minimize it to the CoC congregations. How many things do THEY do in and outside of church that is not "authorized" by Christ.

I;m not sure about this but I'd assume, from the authorization aspect, that CoC does not celebrate birthdays, or any "non-biblicle" holidays. I don't remeber a collection late being passed around in the NT but I might be wrong on that one. I mean the list can go on.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

No doubt, David played instruments during Old Testament times (i.e., while the Israelites were under the law of Moses). Psalm 150 is the classic example given for instrumental music from the Old Testament. However, the problem is that singing is authorized under the New Testament (i.e., the law of Christ) per passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, Acts 16:25, and James 5:13.

Instruments aren't rebuked in the New Testament - they just simply aren't authorized. Note Matthew 21:25. There are but two sources of authority per Jesus: from heaven (i.e., from God) and from men. Per Colossians 3:17, we are to have authority from the Lord (the meaning of "in the name of the Lord") for all we say and do ... assuming our goal is to please and be accepted by Him.

The law of moses has nothing to do with insturments. While they were under the law at that time, the things that they did that was not in refernece to the law has no bearing on what we do today. If that was the case, all preachers need to stop teachings and preaching from the book of psalms and proverbs. Those were written by men that was under the law.

That's a dangerous statement to me ["Instruments aren't rebuked in the New Testament - they just simply aren't authorized."] . How many things do we do today that were not "authorized" in the NT. We can just minimize it to the CoC congregations. How many things do THEY do in and outside of church that is not "authorized" by Christ.

I;m not sure about this but I'd assume, from the authorization aspect, that CoC does not celebrate birthdays, or any "non-biblicle" holidays. I don't remeber a collection late being passed around in the NT but I might be wrong on that one. I mean the list can go on.

I appreciate your response and hope we can study together to better understand God's word.

Note John 10:34 - "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? According to Jesus, the O.T. passage He quoted was a part of Jewish O.T. law. The passage Jesus quoted is Psalm 82:6. Therefore, I conclude the Psalms are a part of Jewish law.

As for those older writings, we are admonished to learn from them (e.g., Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.)

I think the real danger concerning authority is threefold:
1.) Overlooking Matthew 21:25
2.) Overlooking Colossians 3:17
3.) Failing to realize the difference between specific and generic authority. A common example of generic authority is the command to "go" in Matthew 28:19. No means of travel is specified, and we find the apostles and first-century Christians using various means of travel as they went about preaching the gospel. On the other hand, specific authority means God has specified what He wants. For an example, I suggest given some consideration to Hebrews 7:13-14; 8:4. Concisely stated, under the law of Moses God specified priests from the tribe of Levi. Nothing was said of priests from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, were they authorized or not? Please give diligence to the text and let us know what you conclude.

As for giving, it is authorized under the gospel of Christ per 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Is a particular method specified? (Think of the command to "go" in Matt. 28:19). If so, please direct us to the passage. I understand giving is "generally" authorized, which means we have the right to choose the method by which we give.

As for birthdays, I'm at the point that I'm ready to start skipping them. The past few years, they are an occasion for the family to get together and go out to eat. In other words, they are social events, not spiritual per se, and comparable to the wedding feast in John 2.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Help me out with Ephesians 5:19. Help me see how instrumental music fits into that context. I see the passage as a direct statement/command. And, I see the action specified (speaking and singing), what we are to speak/sing is specified (psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs), and the melody is specified (in your heart).

 

[Bryan Cotton]

Therefore, I conclude the Psalms are a part of Jewish law.

Is the Jewish law the same as the Mosaic law? If so then you're saying we can through out Psalms as far as using it as ways to live in modern day times (or post resurection times if you will)

As for those older writings, we are admonished to learn from them (e.g., Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.)

Sure we ca learn from them, but we don't use them as a guidline for or day-to-day life now.

I think the real danger concerning authority is threefold:
1.) Overlooking Matthew 21:25

Matt 21:25 has NOTHING to do with instruments. Jesus was telling the chief priest and the elders, who were asking him about the authoiry of him teaching about faith and believing after he made the fig tree wilter. H was teaching about having faith and not doubted and getting what you have faith in. Not how you should praise God.

2.) Overlooking Colossians 3:17

If you read this verse, how can you tell someone that if they play an insturment and praise the lord, all the while doing it in the name of the lord and giving thanks to the father, that that is wrong? You can't. I just don't see it.

3.) Failing to realize the difference between specific and generic authority.

now THIS ONE I don't know how to respond to because i've never heard anyone say that. But it sort of makes sense. but in this topic I ask: What specific authority or general authoriy did God give us in regards to worship? I need the scripture that specically touches on praise, worship, instruments, or all things?

Before you go look for one, let me stop you. There is NO were, at least not that I've seen, that says you must worship like this or you do not worship like that in regards to instruments. None.

On the other hand, specific authority means God has specified what He wants.

In regards to praise an worship, God specifically says only praise me with singing from your voice, or is it do everything in the name of the lord giving thanks to the father? I won't get into all those scriptures in regards to the law and giving. I don't beleive the bible say that we are still under the law of the OT.

As for birthdays, I'm at the point that I'm ready to start skipping them.

Yea, but does the CoC teach that it's ok to celebrate birthdays or not? Not particulary you, but the CoC.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Help me out with Ephesians 5:19. Help me see how instrumental music fits into that context. I see the passage as a direct statement/command.

Well, I never said that Ephesians 5:19, insturmental music fits. I wasn't even thinking about that scripture in regards to this topic. BUT: Look at this: Ephesians 5:19

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
​

When I look up the word psalms, it comes from the greek word yalmovß Psalmos (psal-mos') Strong # 5568. Definition:

1. a striking, twanging

1. of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
2. of a pious song, a psalm

Please note: I could care less if instruments are used while praising and worshiping the lord. I am concern about teaching people the bible says you can not do so. Also i'm not an expect on this topic and only found out that there were churches who did't allow insturments this year.

 

[- DRA -]

Is the Jewish law the same as the Mosaic law? If so then you're saying we can through out Psalms as far as using it as ways to live in modern day times (or post resurection times if you will)

First, let me say that I appreciate your willingness to discuss and study these matters.

Now, to the questions you ask ...

I guess it depends on how one understands Jesus’ question in John 10:34: “Is it not written in your law?” Clearly, the inference is the passage He quoted is a part of the law. What law? Jewish law based on man-made teachings (human traditions)? No, the source of the quote is Psalm 82:6, which is a part of God’s word. Therefore, my conclusion is Jesus’ reference is to God’s word, which would make it God’s law. Jewish law was founded upon God’s law, or at least, it was supposed to be.

As for the law of Moses, the Jews made a covenant with God to do all that God commanded through Moses (Exodus 24:3). Does that mean or imply they weren’t obligated to obey any commandments/teachings that came later? Of course not; they were expected to obey all God commanded them; the instructions given prior to Exodus 24 were just the starting point for all God would command/instruct His people.

Sure we ca learn from them, but we don't use them as a guidline for or day-to-day life now.

Passages such as Romans 15:4 or 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 say we should learn from the Old Testament writings/examples, however, neither passage teaches that we should follow the old law today. Galatians 5:1-4 covers that principle quite thoroughly. The old law was a package deal. Obey all of it – or none of it. It’s not a pick and choose process that says I like a part of the old law, therefore I’ll incorporate it into the law of Christ. The choice is to either obey the old law (which ended and was no longer in effect), or obey the law of Christ and receive the blessings promised under that law. Those who chose wrongly should not expect God’s grace under the gospel of His Son.

Matt 21:25 has NOTHING to do with instruments. Jesus was telling the chief priest and the elders, who were asking him about the authoiry of him teaching about faith and believing after he made the fig tree wilter. H was teaching about having faith and not doubted and getting what you have faith in. Not how you should praise God.

As for the context of Matthew 21:25, these events occurred during the last week of Jesus’ life (probably Monday or Tuesday). Jesus went into the temple, and …
1.) put out the moneychangers
2.) healed the blind and lame
3.) received praise from the people – “Hosanna to the son of David!”
4.) taught

As a result of His actions, the Jewish leaders approached Him and inquired of His authority to be doing these things in the temple. They certainly had NOT given Him authority to do these things. Therefore, who had?

Jesus responds by putting the Jews in a Catch-22 situation. He asks them about the baptism of John. Specifically, did God command it – or did John take it upon himself to command it? The Jews were entrapped, if they acknowledged the command came from God, then the obvious question was, “Why did you NOT obey it?” And, if they said it was just a commandment of John (i.e., of man), they feared how the people would react, for they accepted John as a prophet. Therefore, the Jewish leaders found themselves in a position where they would NOT answer the Lord.

During this incident, Jesus taught the two sources of authority for spiritual matters: from heaven (i.e., God) or from men (i.e., human, man-made traditions). That was my point in alluding to the passage. As for instrumental music, we either have authority from God to use it, or our authority is from men. One or the other. Which is it? If from God, then we should be able to provide the scriptural basis for using it per 1 Peter 4:11a.

If you read this verse, how can you tell someone that if they play an insturment and praise the lord, all the while doing it in the name of the lord and giving thanks to the father, that that is wrong? You can't. I just don't see it.

Colossians 3:17 teaches the necessity of doing “all” in the name of the Lord, which means to act by His authority (see Acts 4:7). Authority isn’t about assuming a particular action pleases God, but going to His word and doing what He says. That way, we can know for a fact that our words and our actions please Him.

now THIS ONE I don't know how to respond to because i've never heard anyone say that. But it sort of makes sense. but in this topic I ask: What specific authority or general authoriy did God give us in regards to worship? I need the scripture that specically touches on praise, worship, instruments, or all things?

Before you go look for one, let me stop you. There is NO were, at least not that I've seen, that says you must worship like this or you do not worship like that in regards to instruments. None.

Bible authority is an interesting subject. In a nutshell, we either do what God says (i.e., that which He authorized) and receive the blessings promised, or we don’t. The problem is that those that don’t sometimes want to also claim the blessings. And, they are able to deceive people into following their practices/examples/etc.

Given some thought, I think it will make more sense as one studies. Take Noah in Genesis 6. God told him to build an ark of gopherwood. Gopherwood (whatever it was) was a specific commandment. And, since Noah was the man of faith that he was, he did exactly what God told him (see Genesis 6:22 & Hebrews 11:7). As for the latter scriptural reference, God emphasized those faithful examples in Hebrews 11 for us to consider. It’s how faith works. True faith obeys God. Simple as that. Therefore, what do we do with passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13, and Acts 16:25? The faithful obey God. That’s my point. When He specifies what He want, that is exactly what we should do.

Given the topic at hand, I’ll stick with Ephesians 5:19, and discuss it more below.

In regards to praise an worship, God specifically says only praise me with singing from your voice, or is it do everything in the name of the lord giving thanks to the father? I won't get into all those scriptures in regards to the law and giving. I don't beleive the bible say that we are still under the law of the OT.

For clarification, I also do NOT believe we are under the O.T. law today. However, I do believe we can “learn” from the O.T. examples – both from good examples and bad. While we don’t obey the same law as those of old, we are under the same principle: they had to do what God said, as do we … assuming, of course, our goal is to serve and please Him.

Note Colossians 3:17 in its context. What is the preceding verse discussing? Therefore, what are we authorized to do “in word or deed” according to verse 16? Are we truly giving thanks to God when we don’t do as His word instructs?

Yea, but does the CoC teach that it's ok to celebrate birthdays or not? Not particulary you, but the CoC.

I can’t speak on behalf of the church of Christ, other than to say we have no man-made creed that makes up rules on behalf of God. We find it sufficient to speak where God’s word speaks per 1 Peter 4:11a. I think that’s an accurate description of those of us who are faithful to God.

Well, I never said that Ephesians 5:19, insturmental music fits. I wasn't even thinking about that scripture in regards to this topic. BUT: Look at this: Ephesians 5:19

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
​

When I look up the word psalms, it comes from the greek word yalmovß Psalmos (psal-mos') Strong # 5568. Definition:

1. a striking, twanging

1. of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
2. of a pious song, a psalm

Please note: I could care less if instruments are used while praising and worshiping the lord. I am concern about teaching people the bible says you can not do so. Also i'm not an expect on this topic and only found out that there were churches who did't allow insturments this year.

“Psalmos” is used 7x in the New Testament (KJV). Each time it is used, it is used to refer to either the book of Psalms or an excerpt from one of the psalms. Strong’s includes the meaning of the root word “psallo” in the definition. However, psallo is a verb, and psalmos is the corresponding noun. Note the first two definitions Strong lists. They are definitions for a verb – not a noun, which supports the idea that are associated with the root word – the verb. That leaves us with the third definition. Consider the following passages that show how psalmos is used in the N.T. and see if the third definition isn’t the correct way the word is used:
1.) Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of PSALMS, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
2.) Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the PSALMS, concerning me.
3.) Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of PSALMS, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
4.) Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second PSALM, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
5.) 1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a PSALM, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
6.) Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in PSALMS and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
7.) Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in PSALMS and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Now, let’s take these thoughts into consideration when giving diligence to Ephesians 5:19. The passage is a direct statement/command. The subject is understood – “you.” The verbs are “speaking/singing/making melody”. The direct objects are “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.” They describe what God’s people are to sing when they speak (admonish one another per Col. 3:16) and offer praise to God. The passage isn’t really hard to understand. Acts 16:25 is an example of two Christians doing what this passage teaches.

For additional study, I suggest Hebrews 7:13-14, 8:4 in its context. Perhaps it will help you better understand the implications of what is authorized when God specifies what He wants. In short, He specified priests from the tribe of Levi. Nothing was said of priests from Judah. Therefore, were they authorized, or not? After determining your answer, let’s apply the principle to Ephesians 5:19.

 

[Bryan Cotton]

Before our post become books,I'll try to cut out the talk on the law. I think we both agree that we are not under the law but can learn from it.

As for use of instruments during praise:

As for instrumental music, we either have authority from God to use it, or our authority is from men. One or the other. Which is it? If from God, then we should be able to provide the scriptural basis for using it per 1 Peter 4:11a.

When I read 1 Peter 4:11, in the contect of 1 Peter 4, I'm reading that it says give to one another the things that God has given us as a gift(like ability not like present.) and Give in the the ability that God has given it to you to perform that gift so God can be glorigied in everything we do. Actually, in 1 Peter 4:11 it's talking about speaking. It's 4:10 that speaks of the gift.

If i'm wrong, then Lord help me. But with me reading it this way, I still don't see how you could tell someone you have no authority to play instruments while praising. If God gives someone a gift to play the piano, would he not be ministering that gift to others as a good steward of the manifold grace of God?

In other words, I still don't see where it's saying someone has or does not have authority to use there "gift" to share that with others while praising God.

Colossians 3:17 teaches the necessity of doing “all” in the name of the Lord, which means to act by His authority (see Acts 4:7).

Act 4:7 is refering to the authoirty of healing the lame man, then teaching the people (a bunch of people) through Jesus the resurection from the dead. But I sort of see were you are comming from, I think. I think you are saying that Everything we do, like Paul and Peter did, it was done by the specifc authoirty of God.

Authority isn’t about assuming a particular action pleases God, but going to His word and doing what He says. That way, we can know for a fact that our words and our actions please Him.

You're not going to convince me that praising or worshiping God is not pleasing to God. For some reason you feel that an instrument is not pleasing to God while worshiping. But you're not pointing me to anything to suggest that. You speak of authority to do this or that.

I don't recall it being a law or a commandment to David to play instrutments. But he did. And David, minus is little backslide with e famale, had favor in Gods eye. No were under Grace or the Law was this looked down upon by God. Why would that change? It was an act upon God that as not motivated by the Law or Grace. David just did it.

Take Noah in Genesis 6. God told him to build an ark of gopherwood. Gopherwood (whatever it was) was a specific commandment. And, since Noah was the man of faith that he was, he did exactly what God told him

This is how crazy this sounds to me about instruments. Did it say how Moses build the Arc? Did he use a hammer? Or a Mallet? Or a rock? Nails? A Saw? In fact, it really doesn't say build, it says make. But God never gave him authority of what to make it with except for the wood. How crazy would it have been if someone was like "Ummm, Moses, you better not use this that or the other to make this arc, you don't have authoirty to do so.. Thats just crazy man! If im going to build something, Can I not use an electric hammer, or a power drill. I don't have authority to do so. But I do have authority to build things unto God ( besides specifc things God say..don't build this or that.)

Are we truly giving thanks to God when we don’t do as His word instructs?

No. Problem is, you have not shown me were prasing God anf giving thanks to God with an instrument while singing, dancing, humming or clapping your hands is against what God instructs. As a matter of fact, does it say we can hum? Do we have authoirty to hum, or clap or hands, or move with the melody ofthe song?

I can’t speak on behalf of the church of Christ,

Stop right there. I thought we WERE talking about the CoC? Are we just talking about you, or the CoC? Does the CoC believe that we have authoirty to celeverate Birthdays, or Christmas, or Thanksgiving, or Valentines Day? Do the CoC beleive that, yes or no?
We're talking CoC no CoDRA. While I would like to know your personal take on this, I'm specifaccly asking about what the CoC teaches.

Also, do we have authoirty to pass offering "plates" around in church. Or drink water in church? Or us a NIV bible, which is an additioanl translation of the scriptures? Do we have authoirty to us electicity to cook out food oppose to using fire? Or electicity for lights?

I don't know man, to me it just seems like a big distraction to be discussing something so small instead of us focusing on serving God. We're talking about authority on how to praise God?

It would be different if you were to say, instruments are wrong or it's a pagan practice, or something like that. But we're talking about authority on HOW to praise God.

I tell you what, I'm going to praise God right now and there is no instrument in sight. But if there was, I'd blow a horn or a trumpent or whatever in the name of Jesus to glorify God. If that's wrong, then lord help me. If it's right, then praise God.

sorry for the long post. I tried to keep it short.

As far as “Psalmos”, I leave that alone. Like I say, i'm not well read on any of this regarding instruments and I'm reading these scriptures as you feed them to me. Although I have read most of them before, I never knew, until recently, that anyone felt that instruments was seen as wrong, evil or not pleasing to God.

 

[crawfish]

Stop right there. I thought we WERE talking about the CoC? Are we just talking about you, or the CoC? Does the CoC believe that we have authoirty to celeverate Birthdays, or Christmas, or Thanksgiving, or Valentines Day? Do the CoC beleive that, yes or no?
We're talking CoC no CoDRA. While I would like to know your personal take on this, I'm specifaccly asking about what the CoC teaches.

Not all churches of Christ teach against instruments. My own congregation, the largest individual CofC congregation in the world, has both instrumental and a Capella services.

The truth is, the CofC is a non-centralized grouping where each congregation is autonomous. It is often difficult to find an official list of what we believe because of this. I was raised in a non-instrumental CofC, so I know where their argument comes from - but when I grew up, I found it no longer made much sense to me. DRA and others on this board can explain their stance well from a biblical point of view, but to me it's an argument put together at two ends but which doesn't meet in the middle - it requires a pretty large leap of logic. You have indicated the leap yourself - the CofC includes many things in worship that are not explicitly authorized and use this foggy notion of "expediency" to justify them.

Note to DRA and the others: I really don't want to get into another debate on this subject. It's worn me out over the years. I just want to give Bryan a wider overall view of where the CofC sits on this subject.

 

[- DRA -]

When I read 1 Peter 4:11, in the contect of 1 Peter 4, I'm reading that it says give to one another the things that God has given us as a gift(like ability not like present.) and Give in the the ability that God has given it to you to perform that gift so God can be glorigied in everything we do. Actually, in 1 Peter 4:11 it's talking about speaking. It's 4:10 that speaks of the gift.

If i'm wrong, then Lord help me. But with me reading it this way, I still don't see how you could tell someone you have no authority to play instruments while praising. If God gives someone a gift to play the piano, would he not be ministering that gift to others as a good steward of the manifold grace of God?

In other words, I still don't see where it's saying someone has or does not have authority to use there "gift" to share that with others while praising God.

Once again, thanks again for discussing spiritual things … and I’ll try to keep it brief.

I Peter 4:11a says, “If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God.” In a nutshell, we are to speak as God’s word directs (i.e., in accordance to His words). Assuming this idea is correct – that we speak what God’s word tells us to speak – then we speak the things He authorized i.e., the things that please Him and He accepts.

As for “gifts,” a list is for the “equipping of the saints [Christians] for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” is given in Ephesians 4:7-12. The issue at hand is how one can teach what pleases God if one doesn’t teach what God’s word directs. To teach otherwise is to teach without God’s authority, which amounts to one teaching on behalf of God.

Act 4:7 is refering to the authoirty of healing the lame man, then teaching the people (a bunch of people) through Jesus the resurection from the dead. But I sort of see were you are comming from, I think. I think you are saying that Everything we do, like Paul and Peter did, it was done by the specifc authoirty of God.

In Acts 4:7, Peter and John are brought before the Jewish Sanhedrin. These high-ranking Jews want to know “by what power” or “by what name” these apostles are performing miracles and teaching the people. For a fact, they hadn’t authorized it. So, who had? (The scenario kind of reminds you of Matthew 21:25). From the text, we can discern the expressions “by what power” and “by what name” mean: “Who empowered you to do what you do?” or, “Who authorized you to do what you do?”

You're not going to convince me that praising or worshiping God is not pleasing to God. For some reason you feel that an instrument is not pleasing to God while worshiping. But you're not pointing me to anything to suggest that. You speak of authority to do this or that.

Let’s approach the matter from a different angle. Why seek salvation through Jesus? What IF I said, “You’re not going to convince me that I can’t be saved by following the teachings of Mohammad? For some reason you feel that I cannot find salvation through Mohammad. But you’re not pointing me to anything to suggest that.” How would you respond? Wouldn’t it be to appeal to God’s word to show that He declares Jesus to be Savior, and the sole way, truth, and life to please Him and be in eternity with Him (e.g., John 14:6)? Likewise, shouldn’t we go to God’s word to see what pleases Him as we seek to follow His Son Jesus? I believe we should. Ephesians 5:19 is such an example. God authorized singing. Why is it that hard to understand?

I don't recall it being a law or a commandment to David to play instrutments. But he did. And David, minus is little backslide with e famale, had favor in Gods eye. No were under Grace or the Law was this looked down upon by God. Why would that change? It was an act upon God that as not motivated by the Law or Grace. David just did it.

David was rebuked for his actions that were wrong (e.g., his adultery with Bathsheba). However, I find no rebuke for his use of instrumental music. Therefore, I conclude that David just didn’t take upon himself to deviate from God’s word. Perhaps we should remember that David was a prophet per Acts 2:30. Therefore, the inference is that God told David what He wanted written and done.

Last time I checked, Ephesians 5:19 tells us, that is, those of us serving God under the gospel of His Son, what pleases God … the singing of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. What is wrong with following “the faith that was once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3)?

This is how crazy this sounds to me about instruments. Did it say how Moses build the Arc? Did he use a hammer? Or a Mallet? Or a rock? Nails? A Saw? In fact, it really doesn't say build, it says make. But God never gave him authority of what to make it with except for the wood. How crazy would it have been if someone was like "Ummm, Moses, you better not use this that or the other to make this arc, you don't have authoirty to do so.. Thats just crazy man! If im going to build something, Can I not use an electric hammer, or a power drill. I don't have authority to do so. But I do have authority to build things unto God ( besides specifc things God say..don't build this or that.)

Think back to the command to “make” (Which I believe is synonymous with “build.” If not, I’d like to hear the difference as used in the context of Genesis 6:14). “Make” is a general command, with no specifics given. Therefore, whatever Noah had available to make the ark was authorized. Why create a problem with this scenario? God told Noah to make the ark, and he made it. However, “gopherwood” was a specific command. Therefore, what type of wood did God authorize Noah to use?

No. Problem is, you have not shown me were prasing God anf giving thanks to God with an instrument while singing, dancing, humming or clapping your hands is against what God instructs. As a matter of fact, does it say we can hum? Do we have authoirty to hum, or clap or hands, or move with the melody ofthe song?

Can you show me where a passage that shows the source of the fire Nadab and Abihu used in Leviticus 10:1-2 was against God’s instructions? Nope, cause there isn't one. Rather, the opposite is true. He told them what to use, and they used fire from a different source. Therefore, to please God, the inference is we should do what He specifically says when He specifies what He wants.

Stop right there. I thought we WERE talking about the CoC? Are we just talking about you, or the CoC? Does the CoC believe that we have authoirty to celeverate Birthdays, or Christmas, or Thanksgiving, or Valentines Day? Do the CoC beleive that, yes or no?
We're talking CoC no CoDRA. While I would like to know your personal take on this, I'm specifaccly asking about what the CoC teaches.

Not sure how/why you concluded DRA is the spokesperson for the church of Christ. As far as I know, the celebration of birthdays is only expressing prohibited by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which do as the Watchtower Society tells them. The church of Christ has no “Watchtower Society,” just God’s word to follow. I speak with all confidence that the faithful do what God’s word teaches. Not sure what more you are looking for.

Also, do we have authoirty to pass offering "plates" around in church. Or drink water in church? Or us a NIV bible, which is an additioanl translation of the scriptures? Do we have authoirty to us electicity to cook out food oppose to using fire? Or electicity for lights?

Giving is generally authorized in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Check out the passage and let me know if you find a means of giving specified. Water in the church building falls under the realm of an expediency – an aid to carry out what God commands. Simply stated, water is not something we HAVE TO HAVE in the building. However, it beats having to leave and go elsewhere for a drink. (The same principle also applies to the restroom.) Not sure what you mean by the NIV being “an additioanl [sic] translation.” Granted, it’s a thought-for-thought translation versus those that attempt to be a word-for-word translation. If the issue matters that much to you, please explain more and we can discuss. As for electricity, “No,” we can NOT use it. Note Acts 20:8. Those lamps were NOT powered by electricity, right? Oil use is specified in the passage, right? Or, wrong? Do you understand the point I’m making? Obviously, the lamps’ power source is NOT specified, so why get carried away with trying to make everything specific that isn’t. And, to make sure you don’t misunderstand my point, I do indeed believe electricity is authorized.

I don't know man, to me it just seems like a big distraction to be discussing something so small instead of us focusing on serving God. We're talking about authority on how to praise God?

It would be different if you were to say, instruments are wrong or it's a pagan practice, or something like that. But we're talking about authority on HOW to praise God.

I tell you what, I'm going to praise God right now and there is no instrument in sight. But if there was, I'd blow a horn or a trumpent or whatever in the name of Jesus to glorify God. If that's wrong, then lord help me. If it's right, then praise God.

sorry for the long post. I tried to keep it short.

As far as “Psalmos”, I leave that alone. Like I say, i'm not well read on any of this regarding instruments and I'm reading these scriptures as you feed them to me. Although I have read most of them before, I never knew, until recently, that anyone felt that instruments was seen as wrong, evil or not pleasing to God.

Was “strange” or “profane” fire such a small deal in Leviticus 10:1-2?

In essence, authority boils down to self-examination. Am I truly doing what God’s word directs, or am I following the teachings of men?

I’m disappointed that you want to drop “psalmos.” Is it that hard to look at the passages where the word is used in the N.T. and discern what the word means?

The rationale isn’t that instruments are wrong, evil, or not pleasing to God per se. The fact is that God told us what pleases Him, and unless I’ve overlooked the obvious, instrumental music simply isn’t there in passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13, or Acts 16:25. Tell you what. Let’s assume we don’t have a clue about singing versus playing, or singing versus singing and playing. What passages would direct you to know what pleases God under the gospel of Christ? Remember … no assumptions. Just Scripture. So, what Scripture(s) would you use?

 

[Bryan Cotton]

I skimmed your post. I see we're getting no were. I'll just quote a few things you've said from your last few post.

Instruments aren't rebuked in the New Testament - they just simply aren't authorized.

I was not convinced by your "not authorized to include instruments in praise." We can leave it at that. Well except for this, if I decide to use an instrument while I praise and worship, do I lose my salvation? A simple yes or no will do. No need to quote 15 scriptures. 1 or two will do if you feel the need.

Not sure how/why you concluded DRA is the spokesperson for the church of Christ. As far as I know, the celebration of birthdays is only expressing prohibited by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which do as the Watchtower Society tells them. The church of Christ has no "Watchtower Society," just God’s word to follow. I speak with all confidence that the faithful do what God’s word teaches. Not sure what more you are looking for.

When you first said insturments are not authorized, my response was:

We can just minimize it to the CoC congregations. How many things do THEY do in and outside of church that is not "authorized" by Christ.

I;m not sure about this but I'd assume, from the authorization aspect, that CoC does not celebrate birthdays, or any "non-biblicle" holidays.

And when you said "As for birthdays, I'm at the point that I'm ready to start skipping them," I responded with

Yea, but does the CoC teach that it's ok to celebrate birthdays or not? Not particulary you, but the CoC.

That being said, I don't "concluded DRA is the spokesperson for the Church of Christ," I was just asking DRA about the beleifs of the CoC. I specically try to take it off of your personally when I said "Not particulary you, but the CoC."

I pretty much didn't by the sermon I heard about not having "authority" to use instruments during praise that I heard from a CoC site. So I posted here and was hoping to get a perspective on it from a CoC point of view.

I’m disappointed that you want to drop "psalmos."

Don't be. Like I said before I commented on it; "Well, I never said that Ephesians 5:19, insturmental music fits. I wasn't even thinking about that scripture in regards to this topic."

But if it helps you any, I'm not saying what you said about psalmos is wrong. I'm just trying to keep my post to the question at hand instead of trying to have 5 different side bars. In fact, I'm not saying that you are not making some good and or well thought out points.

My bottom line was this. Since you say that JW's is the only ones who only expressingly prohibit birthdays, I take it that CoC does not. My point is, if CoC can say "don't use instruments in praise and worship because we are not authorized to use them," how can that condone celebrating birthdays or any non-biblical holdiays which is not authorized anywhere in the bible, OT or NT?