Some questions about your denomination

[Bryan Cotton]

Not all churches of Christ teach against instruments. My own congregation, the largest individual CofC congregation in the world, has both instrumental and a Capella services.

The truth is, the CofC is a non-centralized grouping where each congregation is autonomous. It is often difficult to find an official list of what we believe because of this.

Just wanted to let you know I did read your response and I appreciate it. you post did help me.

 

[JDIBe]

My bottom line was this. Since you say that JW's is the only ones who only expressingly prohibit birthdays, I take it that CoC does not. My point is, if CoC can say "don't use instruments in praise and worship because we are not authorized to use them," how can that condone celebrating birthdays or any non-biblical holdiays which is not authorized anywhere in the bible, OT or NT?

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.

 

[Bryan Cotton]

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.

So that gives us a pass to treat any day how we will if we are assured in our own mine, even if it's not "authorized" by God. But with instruments, there's no such "Romans 14:5" verse for it so we can't use instruments while we praise and worship?

if that's what you're saying, then that works... for specifc days. Good quote. Now we'd just have to attack the other countless non-biblical things christians do, perhaps in CoC, that are not specifically "authorized" by God.

But I do keep in mind DRA's comment on specific and generic authority.

 

[- DRA -]

Not all churches of Christ teach against instruments. My own congregation, the largest individual CofC congregation in the world, has both instrumental and a Capella services.

The truth is, the CofC is a non-centralized grouping where each congregation is autonomous. It is often difficult to find an official list of what we believe because of this. I was raised in a non-instrumental CofC, so I know where their argument comes from - but when I grew up, I found it no longer made much sense to me. DRA and others on this board can explain their stance well from a biblical point of view, but to me it's an argument put together at two ends but which doesn't meet in the middle - it requires a pretty large leap of logic. You have indicated the leap yourself - the CofC includes many things in worship that are not explicitly authorized and use this foggy notion of "expediency" to justify them.

Note to DRA and the others: I really don't want to get into another debate on this subject. It's worn me out over the years. I just want to give Bryan a wider overall view of where the CofC sits on this subject.

No need to debate. If the world's largest individual CofC congregation practices has both instrumental and a capella services, then it's an open-and-shut case the Lord accepts either, right? After all, everyone knows there is safety following the masses, right?

1 Corinthians 6:12 says (KJV), "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient [Pretty foggy, huh?]: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

So glad your post helped tie up those loose ends. I have to admit, at first I thought it was just another one of those hit-and-run posts.

 

[- DRA -]

... Now we'd just have to attack the other countless non-biblical things christians do, perhaps in CoC, that are not specifically "authorized" by God.

But I do keep in mind DRA's comment on specific and generic authority.

Good. DRA is glad you are now familiar with specific versus generic authority. So, why persist with this unfounded requirement for "specific" authority?

My bottom line is that when God specifies what He wants, that is specifically what we should do.

 

[crawfish]

No need to debate. If the world's largest individual CofC congregation practices has both instrumental and a capella services, then it's an open-and-shut case the Lord accepts either, right? After all, everyone knows there is safety following the masses, right?

1 Corinthians 6:12 says (KJV), "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient [Pretty foggy, huh?]: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

So glad your post helped tie up those loose ends. I have to admit, at first I thought it was just another one of those hit-and-run posts.

The expediency issue was discussed at length between Apollos1 and I in this thread. Personally, I think that the use given by the CofC takes it out of context.

I understand the size of the congregation hardly matters in terms of right and wrong; but I did want to stress to him that we represent a significant portion of the CofC, we aren't some lone, rebellious congregation.

p.s. I do apologize for not coming back to finish our discussions. wmssid pretty much ran me out of here - I had very little desire to read his stuff, and he was dominating the board.

 

[JDIBe]

So that gives us a pass to treat any day how we will if we are assured in our own mine, even if it's not "authorized" by God. But with instruments, there's no such "Romans 14:5" verse for it so we can't use instruments while we praise and worship?

if that's what you're saying, then that works... for specifc days. Good quote. Now we'd just have to attack the other countless non-biblical things christians do, perhaps in CoC, that are not specifically "authorized" by God.

But I do keep in mind DRA's comment on specific and generic authority.

Well, you're the one that brought up the birthday..... I just gave you an answer.

You are correct though. There is no Scripture that says, "one man plays a harp, another a guitar. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind." Thus the problem....

 

[JDIBe]

The expediency issue was discussed at length between Apollos1 and I in this thread. Personally, I think that the use given by the CofC takes it out of context.

I understand the size of the congregation hardly matters in terms of right and wrong; but I did want to stress to him that we represent a significant portion of the CofC, we aren't some lone, rebellious congregation.

p.s. I do apologize for not coming back to finish our discussions. wmssid pretty much ran me out of here - I had very little desire to read his stuff, and he was dominating the board.

BTW, just out of curiosity...how's the instrumental thing working out over there? Is the membership increasing as a result? Is it still being used as simply an outreach tool? It it more performance-oriented or participant-oriented?
Not looking to attack, just curious. Haven't heard anything about it since 2007.

 

[Bryan Cotton]

So, why persist with this unfounded requirement for "specific" authority?

I'm not. I was just asking for a justification of a CoC belief. So far, the explination I got from people on this board and from the sermon I heard by a CoC person on a another site didn't do that.

My bottom line is that when God specifies what He wants, that is specifically what we should do.

I so agree with that. So when God specifically says to praise and worship him, we should do it.

Well, you're the one that brought up the birthday..... I just gave you an answer.

Yea, and if your answer was how I thought you meant it, then it was a GOOD answer. A very Good answer.


Well, thanks everyone for discussing this with me. Discussions are good.

If anyone feels lead to discuss this further with me, for whatever reason, PM me and I'll give you my email address and we can fellowship through email.

 

[crawfish]

BTW, just out of curiosity...how's the instrumental thing working out over there? Is the membership increasing as a result? Is it still being used as simply an outreach tool? It it more performance-oriented or participant-oriented?
Not looking to attack, just curious. Haven't heard anything about it since 2007.

The church expected to immediately lose 10% of their membership as a result of the change - but lost less than 5%. I'd say we're slightly bigger in the last few years - probably a growth of 3-500 people.

The biggest barrier to growth has been logistics. At the change, we went to three services - Saturday night, Sunday 8:00, and Sunday 10:30, with the two Sunday services remaining a capella. The 10:30 service was packed and people actually left because they couldn't find a seat. The Saturday night service grew to about 1,000, and the 8:00 service actually shrunk over time. We have switched our Sundays to a 9:00 a capella service and an 11:30 instrumental service. This seems to have solved some of the problems, but we're going to remodel our auditorium here in the next year and the times will probably change again.

The instrumental services are very similar to our a capella services. Audience singing is vital. We are definitely more "performance" than most CofC's, but then again, we were before. The sermon remains the centerpiece of the service.

It's not all about growth. Experts said we could grow by 50% in a year if we just remove the "church of Christ" from the sign out front, and they have refused to do so.

 

[Ghettoflame]

It's not all about growth. Experts said we could grow by 50% in a year if we just remove the "church of Christ" from the sign out front, and they have refused to do so.

Sometimes you don't want the growth. If growth means "compromise moral absolutes", forget it.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Just visiting.

I'm currently with Assemblies of God, but I used to belong to a Disciples of Christ church, so I can relate to the RM thing. It was a good church, and if I were looking for a church now, I would definitely still consider DoC. And yes, my DoC church had instrumental music. I wasn't even aware of it being an issue until I browsed this forum. And actually, I don't think it ever was a DoC issue. That seems to be uniquely a CoC concern.

 

[- DRA -]

Just visiting.

I'm currently with Assemblies of God, but I used to belong to a Disciples of Christ church, so I can relate to the RM thing. It was a good church, and if I were looking for a church now, I would definitely still consider DoC. And yes, my DoC church had instrumental music. I wasn't even aware of it being an issue until I browsed this forum. And actually, I don't think it ever was a DoC issue. That seems to be uniquely a CoC concern.

Actually, instrumental music (IC) isn't a current concern with the DoC, but it is a part of their history. IC was one of several issues that caused the division within the CoC that gave rise to the CC. Later, as I understand it, the CC further divided and gave rise to the DoC. Each division, as I understand it, led to further liberalism - that is, being too broad based on the teachings of God's word.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Actually, instrumental music (IC) isn't a current concern with the DoC, but it is a part of their history. IC was one of several issues that caused the division within the CoC that gave rise to the CC. Later, as I understand it, the CC further divided and gave rise to the DoC. Each division, as I understand it, led to further liberalism - that is, being too broad based on the teachings of God's word.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the history. FWIW, I don't remember my former DoC church as being excessively liberal. They seemed pretty solid on all the basic doctrines that define Christianity.

 

[- DRA -]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the history. FWIW, I don't remember my former DoC church as being excessively liberal. They seemed pretty solid on all the basic doctrines that define Christianity.

Additional information:

http://www.essortment.com/all/christianchurch_rdsh.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/liberal.htm