Some people I read about:

[RMDY]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Jernigan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Chambers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cohen_(lecturer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlene_Cothran

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So called 'ex-gays'. Your point?

 

[brightmorningstar]

As opposed to so called Wiccans? ..please Wiccan_child can we have debate around the issues.
As Christians we believe all things are possible with God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

As opposed to so called Wiccans? ..please Wiccan_child can we have debate around the issues.

I use the phrase 'so called 'ex-gays' ' because I do not believe they are true heterosexuals.
To counter JohnChapter14's citations of self-professed 'ex-gays', I cite those who have relapsed (ex-ex-gays, as it were):

1. Michael Bussee & partner Gary Cooper.
2. Colin Cook.
3. John Paulk.
4. Michael Johnston.
5. Kirk Talley.

More information can, as ever, be found by a quick Google or Wiki search.

It is interesting to note that the six aforementioned persons are intimately linked with the ex-gay movement, ranging from songwriters and movie actors, to heads of institutions.

As Christians we believe all things are possible with God.

Perhaps. But this does not make it so.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Wiccan_Child

I use the phrase 'so called 'ex-gays' ' because I do not believe they are true heterosexuals.

Ah but you asked whats the point, the point for us is God’s transforming power in action, whether the desires go or the mind is renewed.
I understand if people don’t believe that but for us Christians that is our point.

Perhaps. But this does not make it so.

Well it does based on the testimonies, it depends whether one believes the testimony of God and/or the people.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Ah but you asked whats the point, the point for us is God’s transforming power in action, whether the desires go or the mind is renewed.

Even if we assume that these people are true heterosexuals, this does not prove, or even support, the involvement of your god.

Well it does based on the testimonies, it depends whether one believes the testimony of God and/or the people.

Testimony is insufficient without supporting objective data. I could claim that Brahman came to me and enlightened me to the intrinsic falseness of the Abrahamic faiths. Would you believe the testimony of Brahman and/or me? No. I would need supporting objective evidence to convince you.
Likewise, while you can believe what you wish, 'ex-gay' testimony is insufficient.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Even if we assume that these people are true heterosexuals, this does not prove, or even support, the involvement of your god.

We don't have to prove it since in our world view we assume an all powerful all knowing God is in control. Prove that we must prove everything.

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Testimony is insufficient without supporting objective data. I could claim that Brahman came to me and enlightened me to the intrinsic falseness of the Abrahamic faiths. Would you believe the testimony of Brahman and/or me? No. I would need supporting objective evidence to convince you.
Likewise, while you can believe what you wish, 'ex-gay' testimony is insufficient.

Testimony is sufficient since no amount of evidence is objective as you claim it to be.

 

[dayhiker]

I'd say we have to accept testimony. There simply isn't an objective way to know what is going on in a being's mind with regaurds to how they think and feel about their sexuality or other aspects of their life.

dayhiker

 

[Wiccan_Child]

We don't have to prove it since in our world view we assume an all powerful all knowing God is in control.

Indeed. Your point?

Prove that we must prove everything.

No. I take offense to you putting words into my mouth (namely, that I have, in this case, laid the burden of proof on you).

Testimony is sufficient since no amount of evidence is objective as you claim it to be.

Objective evidence exists. For example, if I observe my desktop fan to be rotating, then that is objective evidence that my desktop fan rotates (or, at least, rotated at one interval of time).
As it happens, I have a desktop fan, and it is rotating.

Indeed, I do not see how the absence of objective evidence (which is demonstrateably fallicious) is proof of testimony's sufficiency.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'd say we have to accept testimony. There simply isn't an objective way to know what is going on in a being's mind with regaurds to how they think and feel about their sexuality or other aspects of their life.

With all due respect, this does not mean we have to accept it. It is an attempt to communicate subjective evidence, which is in itself useless. If I tell you that Brahman came to me and told me that all Abrahamic religions were false, every dot and tittle of them, would you believe me? Would you deny my testimony of the Immortal?

 

[david_x]

They are just like me! (Granted I am still somewhat snared as it were)

As far as proof, wiccan, it is hard to see when you are in the midst of it.

 

[GwynApNudd]

They are just like me! (Granted I am still somewhat snared as it were)

As far as proof, wiccan, it is hard to see when you are in the midst of it.

I could not make heads or tails out of either of these sentences. So I went back over the earlier posts in the thread to see if I could figure out which post you were replying to, hoping that would help. It didn't. I still can't make heads or tails out of your statements. Explain please.

 

[david_x]

Opening post. Sorry i am not real wordy.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I could not make heads or tails out of either of these sentences. So I went back over the earlier posts in the thread to see if I could figure out which post you were replying to, hoping that would help. It didn't. I still can't make heads or tails out of your statements. Explain please.

Agreed.

 

[MrPirate]

Dear Wiccan_Child
Ah but you asked whats the point, the point for us is God’s transforming power in action, whether the desires go or the mind is renewed.
I understand if people don’t believe that but for us Christians that is our point.

Well it does based on the testimonies, it depends whether one believes the testimony of God and/or the people.

Yet Alan Chambers admits he “struggles with same sex desires” indicating that there is no “transformation”…just denial.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

Song writers, even Christian ones, will say anything to sell a record. There is no way you can say these people are legit since they have acheived fame from their so called "cure". It could very well be a hoax to get publicity. That aside, what's your point? There are far more ex-heterosexuals. They just don't get as much publicity because they don't feel as obliged to say "IN YOUR FACE I'M EX-STRAIGHT". Maybe because it's no huge deal and they have enough sense to realize that realizing your true sexuality is just another stone in life?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Wiccan_child,

Ah but you asked whats the point, the point for us is God’s transforming power in action, whether the desires go or the mind is renewed.

Even if we assume that these people are true heterosexuals, this does not prove, or even support, the involvement of your god.

even if you assume you mean, I don’t assume people are heterosexual or homosexual. I understand you might do so and I respect that but don’t say ‘we’ as though it includes me.
Furthermore, as you don’t know the God I know, I wouldn’t expect you to believe what He can do. However the links show you others who know what God can do can

As to claiming things, Wiccan’s do that as well, Wiccan;s testimony is insufficient for me because there is no supporting data. But I would point out that I don’t doubt the testimonies of those with same-sex attraction who say they haven’t been changed, whereas you seem pro gay biased in whose testimony you wish to believe.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Mr Pirate,

Yet Alan Chambers admits he “struggles with same sex desires” indicating that there is no “transformation”…just denial

Oh yes indeed, I am reluctant to doubt anyone's testimony, God can change people's desires, it doesnt mean He has done. Furthermore through Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit it is our hearts and minds that are renewed so although we still have the temptations to do wrong we have the desire not to act on our temptations.
But I get the impression here that the only people disputing anyone's testimonies are those who either dont believe what God can do or believe same-sex sex is ok.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Ah but you asked whats the point, the point for us is God’s transforming power in action, whether the desires go or the mind is renewed.

I have already addressed this.

even if you assume you mean, I don’t assume people are heterosexual or homosexual. I understand you might do so and I respect that but don’t say ‘we’ as though it includes me.

I was speaking hypothetically. Since all dialogue is between two parties, describing a hypothetical situation requires the use of the plural pronouns.

Furthermore, as you don’t know the God I know, I wouldn’t expect you to believe what He can do.

I am well aware of what he can do. However, I do not believe that he has changed the homosexuals to heterosexuals.

However the links show you others who know what God can do can

Testimony is, as ever, insufficient.

As to claiming things, Wiccan’s do that as well, Wiccan;s testimony is insufficient for me because there is no supporting data.

[
Indeed. I have always conceded that my faith is irrational, as are all faiths. That said, I do not claim anything spiritual. Can you show otherwise?

But I would point out that I don’t doubt the testimonies of those with same-sex attraction who say they haven’t been changed, whereas you seem pro gay biased in whose testimony you wish to believe.

It is hardly a bias. There is substantial evidence that homosexuality is related to one's neurology and neurochemistry. This will remain irrespective of how much brainwashing one has done.
Indeed, I cite those persons who have 'reverted' to homosexuality as a counter to the claim that people can truely change their orientation.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Wiccan_Child,

I am well aware of what he can do. However, I do not believe that he has changed the homosexuals to heterosexuals.

Well no you aren't aware as all things are possbile for God, and I am surprised how you could imagine that God could create the universe and everything in it an not be able change people even when that testify to it. Thats some disbelief unless of course you dont know God.

Indeed. I have always conceded that my faith is irrational, as are all faiths. That said, I do not claim anything spiritual. Can you show otherwise?

I dont need to show otherwsie as I am not the one claiming I need supporting objective data to believe, you are.