Some guy made me fear for my life

[Serving Zion]

I have no problem with the word of God in the context in which is was delivered. Eisegesis on the other hand...pass.

Center of mass. Look where you intend to hit.

Then the person in question should have not put me in a position where I had to take such actions to defend my own life or the life of someone else.

Would-be victim survives...good outcome.

OP can decide whom he desires to be. It is clear enough that you and I are not united in spirit because you would rather draw blood than lead a murderer to Christ.

 

[URA]

OP can decide whom he desires to be. It is clear enough that you and I are not united in spirit because you would rather draw blood than lead a murderer to Christ.

That is far too harsh against a fellow Christian; persecute heresies, love heretics. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Disagreement with another user does not permit denying our unity in the Holy Spirit, and I do believe that would constitute blasphemy against said spirit.

By the looks of this argument, both of you are operating under sound Biblical interpretation, you just each think your interpretation of the Bible is superior to the other's. Hence the reason I included the view of the Magisterium, whose authority is a side issue, but still provides an excellent middle ground. I'll repeat 2 lines from the Catechism, and ask you: If it's never okay to murder, then why is there no prohibition against the military? And is it really better to allow an innocent to be murdered than to kill a threat before they can attack?

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

 

[Phil 1:21]

OP can decide whom he desires to be. It is clear enough that you and I are not united in spirit because you would rather draw blood than lead a murderer to Christ.

Bearing false witness against people with whom you disagree isn't exactly very Christ-like, is it?

That notwithstanding, I'm curious as to the practical application of your statement. Show me exactly how you would save the life of someone being stabbed to death by "[leading the] murderer to Christ." Having actually witnessed such a crime, I'm curious how you would proceed.

 

[Serving Zion]

Bearing false witness against people with whom you disagree isn't exactly very Christ-like, is it?

That notwithstanding, I'm curious as to the practical application of your statement. Show me exactly how you would save the life of someone being stabbed to death by "[leading the] murderer to Christ." Having actually witnessed such a crime, I'm curious how you would proceed.

That hasn't happened. I cannot deal with hypothetical scenarios.

 

[Darkhorse]

If it's never okay to murder, then why is there no prohibition against the military?

I think you're confusing murder with justified killing - probably just an oversight.

 

[Serving Zion]

Naw, man. Kids go into the army because it's a form of income for them. They don't have confidence to get other jobs.. no, there definitely ought to be a prohibition on military .. but we need a much more perfect world in order to sustain that lifestyle.

 

[URA]

It simply is not possible to believe that there can be unity in brethren when we are not united in the spirit of love. He has his preference (a pride) to carry and bear arms, and even fantasises about using them to kill criminals. I am not like that at all (neither is Jesus).

If you're not willing to kill to protect someone, I wonder how much you actually love them.

Think of Jesus' anger at the moneychangers in the temple; God is love, Jesus is God, then this violence must have been done out of love. True, Jesus didn't kill any of these moneychangers, but they weren't doing anything worthy of death, like an attacker would be doing.

 

[URA]

I think you're confusing murder with justified killing - probably just an oversight.

Fair correction, thank you.

 

[Darkhorse]

Naw, man. Kids go into the army because it's a form of income for them. They don't have confidence to get other jobs.. no, there definitely ought to be a prohibition on military .. but we need a much more perfect world in order to sustain that lifestyle.

Somehow I think Patton, MacArthur, and Eisenhower had enough confidence to succeed in other careers...

 

[Phil 1:21]

Somehow I think Patton, MacArthur, and Eisenhower had enough confidence to succeed in other careers...

Yeah, I know a lot of military personnel -- active and retired. To demean them as going into the military because they "don't have confidence to get other jobs" is very sad indeed.

 

[URA]

Naw, man. Kids go into the army because it's a form of income for them. They don't have confidence to get other jobs.. no, there definitely ought to be a prohibition on military .. but we need a much more perfect world in order to sustain that lifestyle.

I speak as a loving brother in Christ when I say this: I'm honestly concerned about how much you know about what you're talking about. The guy from my Boy Scout troop that I gave my Mentor Pin to when I earned Eagle has since joined the Navy; a very levelheaded guy, joining the military out of patriotism, a place with good discipline, and a place to get great experience doing maintenance. I have a lot of military in my family; my uncle is a college graduate from IU with a degree in Political Science--not the most practical degree for finding a job, but if you can get a 4-year degree in a field with a lot of research & reading, a job wouldn't be too hard. My grandparents were in the weather division of the Air Force between Korea and Vietnam; afterwards, my grandma was a school bus driver, and my grandpa worked at the post office & retail.

I have the confidence to go into a lot of jobs--I don't have the confidence to go into the military. I have a high level of respect for our soldiers, and I wear an Air Force jacket my uncle passed down as a memento of honor for their sacrifice.

 

[Thess]

Kids go into the army because it's a form of income for them. They don't have confidence to get other jobs..

And that's the problem, in my opinion. Our basic, standard state of confidence and dignity have been squashed. We need to resurrect these basic mindsets, the mindsets that God intends us all to have, so the question I have is, why are we so weak and insecure, lacking confidence? Where did this insecurity come from? Surely not the person themselves, for that would be the wish of a lunatic.

 

[Serving Zion]

Somehow I think Patton, MacArthur, and Eisenhower had enough confidence to succeed in other careers...

Yeah you need to read me properly. I didn't say that all who go into the military are kids who can't get jobs in other places. I just said that there are those who do truly deserve better than to be getting sent out to be killed, and therefore there should be a prohibition on military.

We are certainly of different spiritual fathers.

.. now, just to be clear about this (so that it doesn't get seen as a breach of the forum rules, as some are unable to see that I mean what I mean and not what they would mean by saying what I say), I am not saying that he isn't Christian - just as Jesus didn't say that the Pharisee's weren't Jewish.

And that's the problem, in my opinion. Our basic, standard state of confidence and dignity have been squashed. We need to resurrect these basic mindsets, the mindsets that God intends us all to have, so the question I have is, why are we so weak and insecure, lacking confidence? Where did this insecurity come from? Sure, not the person themselves, for that would be the wish of a lunatic.

I am confident that I can answer every question you have. I would love to get into it in the right context! .. perhaps let me know if you create a thread, we can discover some good understanding of these things! Thanks for pitching in!

 

[Serving Zion]

I speak as a loving brother in Christ when I say this: I'm honestly concerned about how much you know about what you're talking about. The guy from my Boy Scout troop that I gave my Mentor Pin to when I earned Eagle has since joined the Navy; a very levelheaded guy, joining the military out of patriotism, a place with good discipline, and a place to get great experience doing maintenance. I have a lot of military in my family; my uncle is a college graduate from IU with a degree in Political Science--not the most practical degree for finding a job, but if you can get a 4-year degree in a field with a lot of research & reading, a job wouldn't be too hard. My grandparents were in the weather division of the Air Force between Korea and Vietnam; afterwards, my grandma was a school bus driver, and my grandpa worked at the post office & retail.

I have the confidence to go into a lot of jobs--I don't have the confidence to go into the military. I have a high level of respect for our soldiers, and I wear an Air Force jacket my uncle passed down as a memento of honor for their sacrifice.

It's ok. I know there are those who know what they're getting into.

 

[URA]

@Serving Zion
As much as I disagree with most of what you're saying, I respect that you're clarifying your statements in a respectable manner; I was concerned that this was going to get really messy.

 

[Serving Zion]

If you're not willing to kill to protect someone, I wonder how much you actually love them.

Think of Jesus' anger at the moneychangers in the temple; God is love, Jesus is God, then this violence must have been done out of love. True, Jesus didn't kill any of these moneychangers, but they weren't doing anything worthy of death, like an attacker would be doing.

There is some merit in that argument, sure. But you have to really choose who you will be. "God is the God of the living, not the dead".

@Serving Zion
As much as I disagree with most of what you're saying, I respect that you're clarifying your statements in a respectable manner; I was concerned that this was going to get really messy.

It's probably coming down to culture. But again, you have to choose who you will be. Do you want to have a world where Christians are walking around with guns, or where they are putting the ears back on soldiers (and greater things than these)? .. because they are polar opposites and they can't both be right.

.. but yeah, this, what we have here in this thread, is a spiritual battle.