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Gerhard Ebersöhn;67172282 said:Goodness gracious me ... what a clear, short, direct, cohesive question!
It isn't our body we live in that's saved or regenerated. It's our soul. The law is on the level of the body (flesh). The body of flesh isn't born again as John 3 demonstrates. Its also not what Jesus says will find rest in Mat 11:28-30. I don't need Paul to prove it. Romans is great on this issue though. Paul talks a lot about the war between the flesh and the soul. I like chapters 6, 7, 8 and 12 on this alone.Quite wrong, "training in righteousness" is obedience to the law. At the beginning of our Christian walk, we are declared righteous by faith, which means we are set free from our sin nature to become slaves to obedience. Sanctification is the process of becoming more like Christ in his obedience to God as we train ourselves in obedience to the law.
In other words, there is a difference between being declared righteous and living righteously (or training in righteousness). We live righteously or rightly by living in obedience to God, but even if we somehow manage to only sin or disobey God three times per day, though either omission or commission, and lived an average life spawn, we might have 70,000 sins on our record. We might think three sins a day is not too shabby, but the wages of sin, even one, is death, so we can't be justified through living righteously through our own efforts, we must be justified by faith. God paid the penalty for our disobedience to His commands, but should be feel free to sin or to live unrighteously because we are justified by faith apart from works? By no means! God justified us so that we would be free from our old sin nature and free to live righteously in obedience to His commands.
So I want to ask if the gentiles (the whole world) does by nature the tings of the law why was there an issue of them being circumcised and keeping the law in Acts 15? I read
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Indeed the moral law has the Sabbath and the moral law is that which condemns the entire world - and this is the subject of Romans 3 as Paul points out ... which means it is also the Law that "We ESTABLISH" in Rom 3:31.
You just shot your own argument in the foot by allowing Rom 3:31 to include all the ten commandments .. you realize that right??
Were we "not supposed to notice"??
The Passover did not apply to gentiles .. there is no "Passover was made for mankind" there is no "from passover to passover shall all MANKIND come before me to worship" ... there is no Passover for Adam in Gen 2:1-3.
But all of that is applied to Sabbath in full starting in Gen 2:1-3 as God reminds us in Ex 20:11.
Thus while Passover is not condemning all mankind in Rom 3:19-21 the FULL Ten Commandments are - as even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits - to this very day.
True and this is specifically true of God's "unit of TEN" Commandments kept inside the ark as their own unit of TEN and held in distinction.
Agreed.
Agreed that both Gal 3 and Rom 3 use the still-binding moral law of God to condemn all mankind as sinners. A Bible point that even the majority of pro-sunday scholars will admit to.
Which is why Paul's statement in Rom 3:31 is so devastating to those at war with God's TEN Commandments.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
in Christ,
Bob
Maybe I should post more Bible text. But I really don't know why because of inability to deal with my small amount of text even if parsed and going back to what we call transcripts.Understood, and I even post alot of text, that prove it, and I give a clear point!
Maybe I should post more Bible text. But I really don't know why because of inability to deal with my small amount of text even if parsed and going back to what we call transcripts.
bugkiller
Bob, I can fill a page also, and say all kinds of stuff too. It looks okay, but when read, there is no red meat there at all. Why?
Because there are 3 facts you won't respond to, in a clear, short and direct manner.
#1. How can faith establish the law, when the law voids faith? Gal 3:13, Rom 4:14. You keep ignoring the fact that the faith word is in the question of 3:31.
#2. You can no longer use 3:31 to promote the Sabbath, because you said 31 was about sin and flesh, and not about Passover. So that means it was also not about Sabbath!
#3. What law is apart from what? Rom 3:21 shows my point, faith was apart from the law, but it was in the prophets.
So please, in a clear direct answer, please tell me what laws are APART, from each other? How can something be apart, yet witnessed to by the same thing?
3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it
Read 3:21 like this. But now God's righteousness is revealed, apart from the Code, but it was in the OT, in the Psalms, Genesis, Hab 2;4 etc, all along.
I await a clear, short, direct, cohesive answer, thanks, frog.
Which one? So what's your answer?
I wish it would always go that smoothly with the SabbatariansThanks.
Paul clearly teaches that this same moral law of God is not abolished under the Gospel or "by faith" of the saints - but rather it is ESTABLISHED "we ESTABLISH the Law" says Paul when speaking of the faith of the saints.
And of course the NEW Covenant says that this LAW is "written on the heart and mind".
No wonder that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship is so quick to accept the continued authority of God's - TEN Commandments.
in Christ,
Bob
Which one? So what's your answer?
I wish it would always go that smoothly with the Sabbatarians
.
I suppose all of us could use some good eye salvewhy are you wasting your time on these folks?
isn't it obvious that they can't "see"?
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.
I suppose all of us could use some good eye salve
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES
John 9:41
Jesus said to them "if blind ye were, not ever ye had sin.
Yet now ye are saying that 'we are seeing', the sin of ye is remaining".
Reve 3:18
I am advising thee to purchase gold from Me, having been fired thru fire, that thou should be being rich,
and white garments, that thou may be being clothed and no may be being made manifest the vileness of the nakedness of thee,
and eye-salve to annoint the eyes of thee, that thou may be seeing
[Luke 16:19-26/John 9:39]
The pro law folks read.
So then in Romans 3:31 we have the Law of God "established" by the saints.
Indeed the text that directly contradicts the statement about God's Law being abolished. "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"
I am not "proposing" that this text exist. Your argument is "with the text".
...<snip>
Romans 3:19-22 points to only one law that can condemn the entire world under sin.
It is that same law known to Jeremiah - and in Jer 31:31-33 written on the heart and mind - via the NEW Covenant -- as Paul reminds us in Hebrews 8.
on the contrary -- the Psalms do not condemn all the world under sin - and this is clear from 2Cor 3. So they are not the "LAW" of Rom 3:19-31.
irrefutable.
And it is the Law on stone that is quoted in Romans 7 as defining sin, in Romans 3:19-21 .. it defines sin.
irrefutable.
In Gal 3 the issue is the same as in Romans 3 -- the moral law that defines sin and the task being right with God either by sinless obedience or justified by faith - and both chapters state that the moral law of God places all mankind under sin - it is still binding to this very day doing that very thing.
Thus all mankind need salvation.
Irrefutable.
It is that moral law that is "ESTABLISHED" under the New Covenant with the "LAW written on the heart and mind" it is that moral law that the lost "DO NOT" submit to "neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:5-8.
Beyond question.
Establishing the obvious fact that the Romans 3 context for "LAW" is only the moral law - the TEN Commandments - the LAW that condemns all the world as under sin. Is the easy part.
Accepting the concluding statement in Romans 3:31 that fits so well with Rom 8:5-8 and Heb 8 (New Covenant) is where some will struggle with the text.
Bob, I can fill a page also, and say all kinds of stuff too. It looks okay, but when read, there is no red meat there at all.
Why?
Because there are 3 facts you won't respond to, in a clear, short and direct manner.
#1. How can faith establish the law, when the law voids faith? Gal 3:13, Rom 4:14. You keep ignoring the fact that the faith word is in the question of 3:31.
#2. You can no longer use 3:31 to promote the Sabbath, because you said 31 was about sin and flesh, and not about Passover. So that means it was also not about Sabbath!
#3. What law is apart from what? Rom 3:21 shows my point, faith was apart from the law, but it was in the prophets.
So please, in a clear direct answer, please tell me what laws are APART, from each other? How can something be apart, yet witnessed to by the same thing?
Bob, I can fill a page also, and say all kinds of stuff too. It looks okay, but when read, there is no red meat there at all. Why?
Because there are 3 facts you won't respond to, in a clear, short and direct manner.
#1. How can faith establish the law, when the law voids faith? Gal 3:13, Rom 4:14. You keep ignoring the fact that the faith word is in the question of 3:31.
#2. You can no longer use 3:31 to promote the Sabbath, because you said 31 was about sin and flesh, and not about Passover. So that means it was also not about Sabbath!
#3. What law is apart from what? Rom 3:21 shows my point, faith was apart from the law, but it was in the prophets. So please, in a clear direct answer, please tell me what laws are APART, from each other? How can something be apart, yet witnessed to by the same thing?
3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Read 3:21 like this. But now God's righteousness is revealed, apart from the Code, but it was in the OT, in the Psalms, Genesis, Hab 2;4 etc, all along.
I await a clear, short, direct, cohesive answer, thanks, frog.
why are you wasting your time on these folks?
isn't it obvious that they can't "see"?
Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.
2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.
3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.
The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.
Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.
2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away
It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.
context, context context.
Rom 3 says it is the law that condemns all the world and defines sin - as does Romans 7, and 2Cor 3 states this is the law written on stone tablets.
This Romans 3 LAW is specifically the Ten Commandments as so many of even the pro-sunday scholars have affirmed.
1. I never challenge your ability to fill up space with stuff.
2. For the rest of us - including the majority of even pro-sunday scholars this point that I make so well in the texts referenced above - is incredibly valuable as it shows that the LAW established in Rom 3:31 is that LAW specified in both Romans 2 and Romans 3 and specifically in Rom 3:19-22.
1. Paul places neither faith nor the LAW in question in Rom 3:31. You do , as you point out - and your argument is "with the text" in Rom 3:31.
2. Law is not used as a means of salvation in any case - already pointed out. You seem to ignore the point for reasons not yet explained.
3. Your argument about why Rom 3:31 should not exist - is an argument with the text.
1. Extreme inference and not a quote from me. That is circular reasoning of the form "Rom 3:31 is affirming the Moral Law of God so you cannot include the Sabbath of the 4th commandment". you are "assuming the salient point" of your argument in using such circular logic rather than showing it to be true.
2. The Majority of even pro-sunday scholarship admit that the 4th commandment is part of the moral law of God and James 2 says to break one is to be in violation of them all -- just at the point you want to except the 4th commandment. It is not "just me" that notices your mistake in that regard.
1. I find your logic "illusive" at that point. Faith in Romans 3 is about getting saved - and no one on this thread is claiming that the Ten Commandments are the means for getting saved.
2. But then Paul addresses those that ARE saved - the saints and shows that the LAW is "ESTABLISHED" by Gospel faith as we see also in Rom 8:5-8 and in the New Covenant of Heb 8 with the LAW written on the heart for the saved.
In Rom 3 the term "LAW AND the Prophets" is the NT phrase used to mean "scripture" - as has been stated repeatedly.
3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
"Scripture" bears witness to the righteousness of God in the OT. The point is clear.
like this. Read 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
The Atoning sacrifice for sin, the payment of our debt demanded by the Law - upheld in the death of Christ.
"Just and the Justifier" - both LAW and Grace combined.
"All have sinned" - the moral law of God defines sin - and condemns all
"Righteousness of God Through FAITH IN Jesus Christ" The means of salvation is not ever said to be the moral Law.
"Justified freely by His Grace" no claim made that the moral law justifies.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Salvation
This has all been answered repeatedly as I show in this post "again"... Instead of referring to the answers as "stuff" why not address the point?
I await a clear, short, direct, cohesive answer, thanks,
Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.
2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.
3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.
The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.
Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.
2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away
It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.
context, context context.
Rom 3 says it is the law that condemns all the world and defines sin - as does Romans 7, and 2Cor 3 states this is the law written on stone tablets.
This Romans 3 LAW is specifically the Ten Commandments as so many of even the pro-sunday scholars have affirmed.
1. I never challenge your ability to fill up space with stuff.
2. For the rest of us - including the majority of even pro-sunday scholars this point that I make so well in the texts referenced above - is incredibly valuable as it shows that the LAW established in Rom 3:31 is that LAW specified in both Romans 2 and Romans 3 and specifically in Rom 3:19-22.
1. Paul places neither faith nor the LAW in question in Rom 3:31. You do , as you point out - and your argument is "with the text" in Rom 3:31.
2. Law is not used as a means of salvation in any case - already pointed out. You seem to ignore the point for reasons not yet explained.
3. Your argument about why Rom 3:31 should not exist - is an argument with the text.
1. Extreme inference and not a quote from me. That is circular reasoning of the form "Rom 3:31 is affirming the Moral Law of God so you cannot include the Sabbath of the 4th commandment". you are "assuming the salient point" of your argument in using such circular logic rather than showing it to be true.
2. The Majority of even pro-sunday scholarship admit that the 4th commandment is part of the moral law of God and James 2 says to break one is to be in violation of them all -- just at the point you want to except the 4th commandment. It is not "just me" that notices your mistake in that regard.
1. I find your logic "illusive" at that point. Faith in Romans 3 is about getting saved - and no one on this thread is claiming that the Ten Commandments are the means for getting saved.
2. But then Paul addresses those that ARE saved - the saints and shows that the LAW is "ESTABLISHED" by Gospel faith as we see also in Rom 8:5-8 and in the New Covenant of Heb 8 with the LAW written on the heart for the saved.
In Rom 3 the term "LAW AND the Prophets" is the NT phrase used to mean "scripture" - as has been stated repeatedly.
3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it
"Scripture" bears witness to the righteousness of God in the OT. The point is clear.
like this. Read 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
The Atoning sacrifice for sin, the payment of our debt demanded by the Law - upheld in the death of Christ.
"Just and the Justifier" - both LAW and Grace combined.
"All have sinned" - the moral law of God defines sin - and condemns all
"Righteousness of God Through FAITH IN Jesus Christ" The means of salvation is not ever said to be the moral Law.
"Justified freely by His Grace" no claim made that the moral law justifies.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Salvation
This has all been answered repeatedly as I show in this post "again"... Instead of referring to the answers as "stuff" why not address the point?
I await a clear, short, direct, cohesive answer, thanks,
Your post has nothing to do with anything I said.Sorry. The devil is a murderer from the beginning. In lame man terms, murder is wrong. One point for the falsely damned "law folks".
Love or leave Christianity. God is love.
I never argue that those opposed to the TEN Commandments will change their POV due to participation on a discussion board - I agree it is highly unlikely that it happens that way.
But this thread is focused on Romans 3 and frankly Romans 2 and 3 are "home base" territory for the pro-Law-of-God POV. Under some conditions I would have been tempted to PAY one of them to start such a thread - much less to have them do it of their own free will!!
Notice how often Frogster wants us to focus on Romans 4 or Gal 3? The fact is that a focus on Romans 3 is entirely in favor to the TEN Commandments, knowingly or not.
This thread topic is a "gift" that is hard to pass up
in Christ,
Bob
I thought some here are getting paid to post. Not saying you pay anyone.I never argue that those opposed to the TEN Commandments will change their POV due to participation on a discussion board - I agree it is highly unlikely that it happens that way.
But this thread is focused on Romans 3 and frankly Romans 2 and 3 are "home base" territory for the pro-Law-of-God POV. Under some conditions I would have been tempted to PAY one of them to start such a thread - much less to have them do it of their own free will!!
Notice how often Frogster wants us to focus on Romans 4 or Gal 3? The fact is that a focus on Romans 3 is entirely in favor to the TEN Commandments, knowingly or not.
This thread topic is a "gift" that is hard to pass up!
in Christ,
Bob
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