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Some advice please

BelleC

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Next month I resume my weekly job as a part-time Christian Education coordinator. I wish I was looking forward to this. I finally found a church I enjoy attending and really feel the presence of God when I'm there and I will only be able to go once a month. :(

I'm committed to seeing through at least this year with the church where I'm teaching. The church itself is a federated combination of UCC, American Baptist, and Methodist. The people are very kind and giving but the theology, or lack of theology, is not for me. I have that one Sunday a month off because I don't attend or have classes on their communion Sundays. I am doing my best to share Christ with the little ones entrusted to me although all the leadership is looking for is for the kids to have fun and be out of the way for 30-40 minutes.

So, I'd like to supplement my monthly attendance during the school year at my current church of choice by perhaps attending somewhere else before my Sunday School commitment starts. The options that might work logistically seem to either the RCC that has multiple services or the ELCA church or an Episcopal church, which is the furthest away. Obviously if I attend the RCC I can't take communion but I could at the Lutheran church but I feel clueless as to what makes a communion valid. Your thoughts? Is this whole idea crazy? Should I just stick with going once a month?
 

Fish and Bread

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I don't think the idea is crazy. The church where you work is your job, the church you are thinking about attending is your church. If your job with the children is during the service itself in another room, you won't even be going to church at your work church per say.

And even if you to do have to attend the service at your work church as part of your job, it sounds like they will not be having communion the Sundays you are working, and though what a liturgy from a federated UCC/Methodist/American Baptist church would look like isn't immediately obvious to me, my best guess is that you are not getting a real formal liturgy there with a full lectionary and vestments and paraments on the altar and whatnot.

The other three churches or deniminations you're looking at- the RCC, ECUSA, and ELCA are all more liturgical with a lectionary, typically liturgical seasonal emphasises in vestments and paraments and tone, and a Eucharistic focus with a belief in the real presence to varying degrees. The Lutherans are a little bit less like that than the Roman Catholics and the Episcopalians, typically, but probably all are more like that than the church you're working at. Point being- different experience than your work church, probably, so not redundany except in so far I am sure any church involves prayers, some hymns, at least a mention of scripture, and a sermon or homily; but it might be two different things apart from those basics, and the basics might be from a very different tradition in each church that makes them different (Or not- you would know, having actually been to this work church that seems to be part of three denominations :) ).

You didn't say what the denomination is of the church you are attending currently that you are only going to be able to go to once a month when work starts, and I'm viewing this on my phone, with a cutdown user interface due to limoted screen space, so I can't see some of that helpful identifying stuff that's sometimes included by people's posts automatically when viewed on a computer. Since this thread is in STR, though, I'm going to assume you're an Anglican of some sort (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

So, the Episcopal Church parish you mentioned seems like the logical choice for you on the surface of things. If you're already Episcopalian, you would be getting the same liturgy, lectionary, church calendar, belief system, etc.. You might even be in the dame diocese with the same bishop! If you are an Anglican from a breakaway group, even then you might be getting the same liturgy or a liturgy that evolved from the same origins in a Book of Common Prayer of some sort, the same liturgical seasons, and maybe even the same readings. Seems like a good way to keep up with the flow of the readings and the calendar, even though presumably if you aren't Episcopalian for a reason and instead joined a breakaway group, it's for a reason, the plus is that, as you implied, you have Apostolic Succession there in the EC and feel the Eucharist is valid there and are welcome to receive, so there seems like a potential fit for you there to me, even if you might have to tolerate some elements that you left over being present.

ELCA generally has a lot of the same liturgical stuff as the EC, but typically less formal and with less emphasis. ELCA also in theory is using the same Revised Common Lectionary used in the Episcopal Church, but Lutheran pastors are given a lot of discretion to vary from the lectionary that Episcopal priests don't have, so if hearing the readings is important to you, you aren't totally guaranteed to get the "right" ones there in the sense of following the lectionary, but you might. If it matters to you, ELCA for better or for worse seems about the same as the Episcopal Church on left-right issues- they have female pastors, they are historically considered a "mainline" Protestant denomination which tends to mean moderate, and have like the EC been moving more to the liberal side of things with time, etc.. I'm not sure if ELCA has gay bishops (They do have an office called bishop, but its not the same as a three-fold ministry as in Anglican churches, its more a position than a different level of ordination in their view. They feel there is one level of clergy- pastor, which can do everything including ordain more pastors) or gay marriage, but I think if they aren't there, they are getting there, just maybe a little bit slower than the EC. You could take communion there, too.

And I am certainly not one to say not to go to a Roman Catholic mass! You may be surprised at how much you get from the experience if you've never been.

But my general inclination would be to say if your home church you are happy with is Episcopalian or Anglican, it makes sense to do the Episcopalian parish the weeks you can't be at your home parish- smoother more consistent transition back and forth. But its of course up to you.

Two cautions:

1. If going to church twice each Sunday is going to cause family issues or issues with your partner or friends or just added stress and difficulties, don't do it IMO. Not worth it and maybe not fair to them or to you. If they don't care and it won't stress you out, no problem!

2. Make sure that if you do go to two things each Sunday its because you really want to and not because you feel obligated. None of the churches or denominations you mentioned say you must go to church more than once on Sunday. :) Only partial exception is that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't consider any of the other things mass and mandates you go to one RCC mass a weekend (With exceptions for if you have health difficulties, have no way to get there, live really far away, or have to work at all available mass times), but I'm guessing this thread would be in one of the Catholic sections if you were a Roman Catholic.

Just make sure you're doing it because you want to, not because you feel some sort of guilt or stress saying you have to, because you don't have to.
 
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Bonifatius

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I don't think the idea is crazy. I had a time when I had church jobs to do whenever I was at a service. I was either engaged as a singer or as server or Master of Ceremonies etc. During that time I found it quite helpful to go to a weekday Eucharist because that would be a service where I did not have anything to do but just attend and pray. So perhaps if you could find an Episcopal or Lutheran church where they do a weekday service this could help to make you feel more comfy and less under stress on a Sunday? I know that attending two churches on a Sunday can be a bit stressful.
 
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Albion

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So, I'd like to supplement my monthly attendance during the school year at my current church of choice by perhaps attending somewhere else before my Sunday School commitment starts. The options that might work logistically seem to either the RCC that has multiple services or the ELCA church or an Episcopal church, which is the furthest away. Obviously if I attend the RCC I can't take communion but I could at the Lutheran church but I feel clueless as to what makes a communion valid. Your thoughts? Is this whole idea crazy? Should I just stick with going once a month?
To me, your thinking about this is good; and I encourage you to do what you've been contemplating. My advice would be against choosing the RCC unless you are deeply impressed by its worship style, preaching, doctrines, Papal leadership--and of course, the parishioners at that local church. As between the other two, the Episcopal Church is on the fast track to being everything that you find lacking in the federated church you serve right now, so I'd think that the Lutheran church is the most promising. It may depend on the profile of that particular congregation, but I'd recommend checking it out.
 
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graceandpeace

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I do think the Episcopal or Lutheran option would be the right choice.

As far as what makes a communion "valid," I'd want to know what you mean - & the answer is almost certain to depend on who you ask. In an Episcopal setting, we have a priest at the altar & the words of institution. The bread & wine are consecrated. We believe Christ is present, though the exact details are mysterious.
 
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Albion

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Obviously if I attend the RCC I can't take communion but I could at the Lutheran church but I feel clueless as to what makes a communion valid. Your thoughts? Is this whole idea crazy? Should I just stick with going once a month?
I failed to address this issue in my first reply, Belle, but on this matter the differences between the three churches you referred to are few. All believe in the communion requiring a valid minister, which means one in a lineage back to the Apostles, properly called by the church/people, and for bread and wine to be used and the words of Christ as said at the Last Supper to be repeated. All of them believe in the Real Presence, that Christ is somehow present with the b and w itself (not just a symbol or remembrance), and that reception by the communicant imparts grace and the assurance of forgiveness from sin.
 
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Bonifatius

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When asking what makes a communion service 'valid' you might get very different answers if you ask for the 'official' view of different church traditions. I am happy to partake in Holy Communion in different churches as long as a few basics are observed:

- bread and wine are used (alternatively grape juice as the Methodists do)
- the words of institution are said over bread and wine
- the celebration is presided over by a licensed minister of the church or congregation
- the overall structure of the liturgy shows that people want to do what Christ has commanded us to do

That would be my basics to partake. When presiding myself I add a few more 'basics', but that is a different story.
 
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BelleC

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I don't think the idea is crazy. The church where you work is your job, the church you are thinking about attending is your church. If your job with the children is during the service itself in another room, you won't even be going to church at your work church per say.

And even if you to do have to attend the service at your work church as part of your job, it sounds like they will not be having communion the Sundays you are working, and though what a liturgy from a federated UCC/Methodist/American Baptist church would look like isn't immediately obvious to me, my best guess is that you are not getting a real formal liturgy there with a full lectionary and vestments and paraments on the altar and whatnot.

The other three churches or deniminations you're looking at- the RCC, ECUSA, and ELCA are all more liturgical with a lectionary, typically liturgical seasonal emphasises in vestments and paraments and tone, and a Eucharistic focus with a belief in the real presence to varying degrees. The Lutherans are a little bit less like that than the Roman Catholics and the Episcopalians, typically, but probably all are more like that than the church you're working at. Point being- different experience than your work church, probably, so not redundany except in so far I am sure any church involves prayers, some hymns, at least a mention of scripture, and a sermon or homily; but it might be two different things apart from those basics, and the basics might be from a very different tradition in each church that makes them different (Or not- you would know, having actually been to this work church that seems to be part of three denominations :) ).

You didn't say what the denomination is of the church you are attending currently that you are only going to be able to go to once a month when work starts, and I'm viewing this on my phone, with a cutdown user interface due to limoted screen space, so I can't see some of that helpful identifying stuff that's sometimes included by people's posts automatically when viewed on a computer. Since this thread is in STR, though, I'm going to assume you're an Anglican of some sort (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

So, the Episcopal Church parish you mentioned seems like the logical choice for you on the surface of things. If you're already Episcopalian, you would be getting the same liturgy, lectionary, church calendar, belief system, etc.. You might even be in the dame diocese with the same bishop! If you are an Anglican from a breakaway group, even then you might be getting the same liturgy or a liturgy that evolved from the same origins in a Book of Common Prayer of some sort, the same liturgical seasons, and maybe even the same readings. Seems like a good way to keep up with the flow of the readings and the calendar, even though presumably if you aren't Episcopalian for a reason and instead joined a breakaway group, it's for a reason, the plus is that, as you implied, you have Apostolic Succession there in the EC and feel the Eucharist is valid there and are welcome to receive, so there seems like a potential fit for you there to me, even if you might have to tolerate some elements that you left over being present.

ELCA generally has a lot of the same liturgical stuff as the EC, but typically less formal and with less emphasis. ELCA also in theory is using the same Revised Common Lectionary used in the Episcopal Church, but Lutheran pastors are given a lot of discretion to vary from the lectionary that Episcopal priests don't have, so if hearing the readings is important to you, you aren't totally guaranteed to get the "right" ones there in the sense of following the lectionary, but you might. If it matters to you, ELCA for better or for worse seems about the same as the Episcopal Church on left-right issues- they have female pastors, they are historically considered a "mainline" Protestant denomination which tends to mean moderate, and have like the EC been moving more to the liberal side of things with time, etc.. I'm not sure if ELCA has gay bishops (They do have an office called bishop, but its not the same as a three-fold ministry as in Anglican churches, its more a position than a different level of ordination in their view. They feel there is one level of clergy- pastor, which can do everything including ordain more pastors) or gay marriage, but I think if they aren't there, they are getting there, just maybe a little bit slower than the EC. You could take communion there, too.

And I am certainly not one to say not to go to a Roman Catholic mass! You may be surprised at how much you get from the experience if you've never been.

But my general inclination would be to say if your home church you are happy with is Episcopalian or Anglican, it makes sense to do the Episcopalian parish the weeks you can't be at your home parish- smoother more consistent transition back and forth. But its of course up to you.

Two cautions:

1. If going to church twice each Sunday is going to cause family issues or issues with your partner or friends or just added stress and difficulties, don't do it IMO. Not worth it and maybe not fair to them or to you. If they don't care and it won't stress you out, no problem!

2. Make sure that if you do go to two things each Sunday its because you really want to and not because you feel obligated. None of the churches or denominations you mentioned say you must go to church more than once on Sunday. :) Only partial exception is that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't consider any of the other things mass and mandates you go to one RCC mass a weekend (With exceptions for if you have health difficulties, have no way to get there, live really far away, or have to work at all available mass times), but I'm guessing this thread would be in one of the Catholic sections if you were a Roman Catholic.

Just make sure you're doing it because you want to, not because you feel some sort of guilt or stress saying you have to, because you don't have to.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'm not yet an official Anglican but I have been attending church at an ACNA church and thus far it is the closest thing I've ever found to a church I would consider making my own. It has a beautiful liturgy even though it is a small store front mission. It is conservative on key issues for me. The music is meaningful and often even familiar to me. The only downside thus far is that it is very,very small.

My religious background is somewhat eclectic. I went from SDA as I was raised to non-denominational to Wiccan to just confused but Christian again in college. Went back to non-denominational churches after college and continued to read and study about other Christian churches trying to find what might come closest to the most true. During this period of time I had an experience of being filled with the Spirit during a service. While that experience has stayed with me it has hardly made me immune to doubt or still being confused about finding a church home. For very long stretches I went to no church at all or very infrequently would visit an SDA church mainly because I missed the familiarity.

So, liturgy is somewhat new to me although the work church does follow the Revised Common Lectionary. While I don't necessarily follow along with the Lectionary for the kids lessons through this job I've gotten more of a feel for the rhythm of seasons of the church year. That was a new thing for me.

I have done part of an RCIA course to find out if I really understood what the RCC teaches and I studied the RCC catechism. Part of doing the course you had to attend Sunday services. While I understand better now I still have objections/strong reservations about certain teachings. Mainly papal infallibility, some Marian teachings being added recently, praying to saints, and venerating statues or icons. One thing I do like about the RCC church though is there is certainly no lack of services one can attend!!

I definitely don't feel obligated about going to another church. These past few years working as a Sunday School teacher/CE director left me feeling parched spiritually. I've been trying to pour out to others without fully replenishing myself. I generally am only in the first 10-15 minutes of the service before the kids are released with me. There are not always any kids to teach in which case I stay the full service out of politeness. I feel bad that I feel as repelled by the service as I do but I have never been able to get anything out of it. I am certainly no better than the members there. As far as I can see they take community service extremely seriously.

On Sundays my little girl usually stays home with her non-religious dad while I go to either church or work. So you do have a valid point with the possibility that my doing this might interfere with family life.

Part of my more recent push to find a home church is to find one that I believe will be able to teach her the Christian faith too, or not unteach what I would like to teach her. So this may be my last year doing this as by next year she may be old enough to start being more involved.
 
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BelleC

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I failed to address this issue in my first reply, Belle, but on this matter the differences between the three churches you referred to are few. All believe in the communion requiring a valid minister, which means one in a lineage back to the Apostles, properly called by the church/people, and for bread and wine to be used and the words of Christ as said at the Last Supper to be repeated. All of them believe in the Real Presence, that Christ is somehow present with the b and w itself (not just a symbol or remembrance), and that reception by the communicant imparts grace and the assurance of forgiveness from sin.

Thank you for your answer. Does apostolic succession play a role in the validity of communion or is it the faith of the people receiving that makes it valid? I don't believe the ELCA has apostolic succession but I don't know if that matters or not.
 
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Albion

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Thank you for your answer. Does apostolic succession play a role in the validity of communion or is it the faith of the people receiving that makes it valid? I don't believe the ELCA has apostolic succession but I don't know if that matters or not.
The ELCA now has Apostolic Succession through The Episcopal Church with which it is very collegial. All of these churches would say that Apostolic Succession is important, although the ELCA was late in coming to that POV. The national churches of Scandinavia, however, retained their AS from before the Reformation, so it's not as surprising as might be thought, and the Swedish Lutherans in this country were mainly in the older Lutheran body that went into the merger that produced the ELCA a few years back.
 
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BelleC

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FWIW, I'm confused. I thought, from the OP, that the churches under consideration were RCC, ELCA Lutheran, and the Episcopal hurch.
Those are the churches I'm looking at that may have services I could attend on the Sundays I am working and would not be able to attend at the ACNA church because of the service times overlapping. I don't want to fall back into feeling spiritually lonely this year, or resenting the church I work at.
 
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Albion

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Whew. At least I wasn't completely off course. :) Thank you. You'd probably find both the ELCA and The Episcopal Church to have a familiar feel, much more than the RCC, but they're both considerably more liberal than ACNA. Since you are primarily concerned about being somewhere that allows you to worship in a familiar way rather than looking for a new church home, I still think that what's already been suggested makes sense.
 
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Bonifatius

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Does apostolic succession play a role in the validity of communion or is it the faith of the people receiving that makes it valid? I don't believe the ELCA has apostolic succession but I don't know if that matters or not.

There are churches that put a lot of stress on the Apostolic Succession. Without it - they say - we cannot be sure whether Christ is present in the elements or not.

Personally I would not put so much stress on the issue whether the priests has been ordained within the line of Apostolic Succession. After all it is the presence of Christ which makes the feast, not the rules and traditions of the church. I do think that Apostolic Succession is an important element in the tradition of the church and it also serves as a safeguard for churches not to completely lose track. But when it comes to the sacraments it is the power of God who grants his presence. And I honestly don't believe that God is bound to outward rules such as an unbroken line of laying on of hands.

Even Roman Catholic teaching says that Apostolic Succession consists of two parts: the unbroken line of ordinations (successio ministrorum) and the unbroken line of apostolic teaching (successio verbi). I believe that there are church traditions which have kept the teaching without being able of keeping the line of ordinations (for whatever reason) and on the other side there are church traditions which have the outward sign of succession (line of ordinations) but not the teaching. So, in the end: which one is better? Ideally, both come together.
 
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mark46

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Thank you for your answer. Does apostolic succession play a role in the validity of communion or is it the faith of the people receiving that makes it valid? I don't believe the ELCA has apostolic succession but I don't know if that matters or not.

In the US, ELCA has apostolic succession through its agreements with TEC. At lest, that is the position of TEC.
 
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