Solving the Problem of false doctrine

[BobRyan]

Ideally - everyone "Should" be saying "the denomination I belong to has the most correct doctrine of all denominations"
because it is not very healthy to be saying "my church has bad doctrine but I don't care - I have friends there"

And of course different views exist - some people have definite views about doctrines such as:

• purgatory
• prayers to the dead
• infant baptism
• Tradition vs sola scriptura testing
• salvation by works
• once saved always saved
• the rapture
• the antichrist
• hell
• the ten commandments
• marriage definitions
• gender definitions
• evolution
• saints going to heaven
• predestination

The common view of this topic:

1. We all agree that differences do exist even within Christianity
2. We all agree that God will straighten out the details in heaven - many hope it won't matter before then.
(This leads to the idea that 'false doctrine is not really a problem and will be fixed later' )
3. History is full of examples where false doctrine didn't get "fixed" so it created "train wrecks"
4. Nobody claims to teach false doctrine - yet that can't be the reality of it.
5. Optimistically we could assume that Adam had no false doctrine to start with, and neither did Noah. Certainly neither Christ nor Paul had false doctrine. (This means multiple times - the world went from "no false doctrine" to "loads of false doctrine" over time.)

6. Popular Solutions -
a. Some say that their church has a long history of never making mistakes. It has it all figured out -- so just stick with that church no matter what.
b. Some say that the people in their church are really good at Bible study and have advanced degrees so they must be right.
c. Some say they themselves have read the Bible and figured out what they need to know - and they are certain they are in the right place.

=======================

Notice some examples where Christ corrects false doctrine -

Luke 24:25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

looks like a "sola scriptura" demonstration by Christ.

What Jesus does not say in that example of sola scriptura is "slow to run to some scholar some place and ask them how to read scripture and to tell you what to think"

Same thing in Mark 7:6-13 -- Jesus directly confronts false doctrine in man-made tradition "sola scriptura".

Same thing in Matt 22 regarding false doctrines that denied the future resurrecition. Jesus confronts it "sola scriptura"

 

[BobRyan]

============== some controversial details

1. The Bible says false doctrine is a problem
2. Even NT writers were dealing with the problem of false doctrine in the early church
3. All major Christian denominations today differ on at least one doctrine, so all cannot be right in every point. At most - one could be right ( or else it is "none" ) (See Tall73's recent thread)
4. Given the NT experience - then even in one single denomination it is likely that every local congregation in it - has some false doctrine believed by someone in it.
5. So what should we do about avoiding false doctrine?

Since points 3 and 4 are pretty much undisputed - I will focus mainly on 1 and 2 of course #5 -- in this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

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The serious nature of the problem of false doctrine:

#1. False doctrine has huge consequences

John 14: "I AM the way the TRUTH and the life"

2 Thess 2: 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Matt 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Rev 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been fatally wounded, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;
...5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of the sky to the earth in the presence of people. 14 And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

2 Peter 3 - the false doctrine at the time of the flood - cause almost the entire world to reject Noah's final warning message to humans - and then perish (see also Matt 24)

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The second part of this thread - point #2

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#2 -- = NT false doctrine (False doctrine creeping into the NT church prior to 100 A.D.)

Acts 20: 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

2 Tim 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;

1Tim 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

3 John 1:9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with malicious words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brothers either, and he forbids those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.

======================

No wonder many people don't like the idea that says "ignore the NT text it is too EARLY so then it is too difficult to understand -- just look for doctrine that rises up some time after 100 AD)

 

[BobRyan]

============== solutions in the Bible =============

Acts 17:11 shows how some NT saints were using sola-scriptura to avoid false doctrine. "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF" those things spoken to them by the apostle Paul "were SO"

Mark 7:6-13 -- Christ demonstrates how the sola scriptura method is used to expose and refute the false doctrines that crept in via various tradition in His day.

John 16 "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all TRUTH"

2 Tim 2: 7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

1 John 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

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Whatever solution you have chosen - you probably end up near here -
1. No matter the case - I don't think the problem of false doctrine affects me or my family.
2. God knows it is confusing and knows that nobody is perfect - so I am ok.
3. What you don't know can't hurt you as long as you are staying with the pack, the herd, the group.

IT is likely that the Jews of Christ's day were pretty comfortable with one of those ideas.

(But of course - If you were lost in the forest you would search for the right solution like your life depended on it.)

 

[zippy2006]

Related: Dogma, Heresy, and Modernity

In modernity there have been two erroneous and common tendencies. The first is religious indifferentism. This is the view that there are no dogmas, there are no heresies, everything is a matter of theological opinion, and people can believe whatever they want while still calling themselves "Christian." The problem with this error at the most general level is that the religion becomes contentless, without form or substance. If people can believe whatever they want while still calling themselves "Christian," then the name "Christian" becomes meaningless. The more specific problem is that the Good News becomes emptied of substance...

 

[Jipsah]

No wonder many people don't like the idea that says "ignore the NT text it is too EARLY so then it is too difficult to understand -- just look for doctrine that rises up some time after 100 AD)

Next person I hear say anything like that will make a grand total of one.

 

[Jipsah]

So what should we do about avoiding false doctrine?

Simple. Beat the tub for our favorite sect and declare that it has all the right answers.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
So what should we do about avoiding false doctrine?

Simple. Beat the tub for our favorite sect

Paul claimed that that was exactly what the Jews were doing to the Christians whom they called "a sect"

 

[JAL]

5. So what should we do about avoiding false doctrine?

2000 years of unresolved dispute confirms that exegesis - scholarly analysis - is fallible. To some extent it is stabbing in the dark.

If recognizing the true religion were a stab in the dark, no one could reliably find salvation. To remedy this, God provides the Inward Witness (John 10:27) to convict/convince us of the truth. With respect to foundational truths (such as the atonement and the inspiration of Scripture), the Inward Witness effectively eliminates the problem of stabbing in the dark.

The only antidote to all false doctrine and all disunity, then, is for each of us to hear the Inward Witness speaking to us in all the other areas - areas beyond the foundational truths.

" 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come." (John 16).

This is the Voice heard by the prophets. Was it supposed to be limited to Christ's twelve apostles/prophets alone? John recorded this statement. He alone recorded that the Spirit guides the prophets into all truth. Note that he makes an identical promise to his own disciples !!! (Many of whom, quite possibly, were already prophets):

20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.c 21I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth.... 27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught" (1 John 2).


The solution to false doctrine, then, is simply for the whole church to finally begin to take seriously Paul's command to place the pursuit of prophethood at the very top rung of the priority ladder alongside love (1 Cor 14:1).

 

[BobRyan]

2000 years of unresolved dispute confirms that exegesis - scholarly analysis - is fallible. To some extent it is stabbing in the dark.

Kind of like saying 2000 years of dispute confirms that the Bible has no answers - isnt it?

God provides the Inward Witness (John 10:27) to convict/convince us of the truth.

True. Both the Bible and that inward Witness have been there for that entire 2000 years. So is the 2000 years of dispute some sort of proof that neither of them can be trusted in your POV?

The solution to false doctrine, then, is simply for the whole church to finally begin to take seriously Paul's command to place the pursuit of prophethood at the very top rung of the priority ladder alongside love (1 Cor 14:1).

ok - but all the scripture being disputed over - is itself the result of the Holy Spirit's work through prophets... agreed?

 

[JAL]

Kind of like saying 2000 years of dispute confirms that the Bible has no answers - isnt it?

Kind of like putting words in my mouth - isn't it?

True. Both the Bible and that inward Witness have been there for that entire 2000 years. So is the 2000 years of dispute some sort of proof that neither of them can be trusted in your POV?

If prophets can't be trusted, we can't trust the Scriptures they wrote. Right?

ok - but all the scripture being disputed over - is itself the result of the Holy Spirit's work through prophets... agreed?

No, scholarly analysis is the artifact of fallible men, whereas prophecy is from God. Agreed?

 

[Jipsah]

BobRyan said:

Paul claimed that that was exactly what the Jews were doing to the Christians whom they called "a sect"

Paul accused someone of beating the tub? Dang, he really was ahead of his time.

But no, the point is that everyone believes that their sect has got it all figured out, ergo they need look no further. Catholics know they're right and SDAs know they're right do do JWs, Presbyterians, Baptists, ad infinitum. They all have the Correct Doctrine, and no one else does. Make everything easier. If SDAs believe it, it's right. If Catholics believe it, ot's wrong. Baptists good, Pentecostalists bad. Put on your team colors and chant "We're Number One! Easy peasey.

 

[Jipsah]

No, scholarly analysis is the artifact of fallible men, whereas prophecy is from God. Agreed?

That gives the SDAs a big advantage, because they have their own in-house prophet.

 

[JAL]

That gives the SDAs a big advantage, because they have their own in-house prophet.

Prophecy can't be trusted? Too bad. Guess you'll have to throw out your Bible.

First of all, Paul commanded the church to pursue prophecy.

Secondly, you and Bob should be asking the right question, namely, when should we trust a prophecy, or someone who claims to speak prophetically? Instead, seems the both of you want to assume that it cannot be trusted. Which makes Paul look stupid, right? He stupidly commanded us to pursue an untrustworthy gift?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
So what should we do about avoiding false doctrine?

Simple. Beat the tub for our favorite sect

Paul claimed that that was exactly what the Jews were doing to the Christians whom they called "a sect"

Paul accused someone of beating the tub?

That was your idea - I simply point to the Jews using your method

 

[BobRyan]

Catholics know they're right and SDAs know they're right do do JWs, Presbyterians, Baptists, ad infinitum.

Indeed. The method of "see if anyone claims to be right" is not a very reliable one.

 

[BobRyan]

No, scholarly analysis is the artifact of fallible men, whereas prophecy is from God. Agreed?

Agreed. Many opinions but only one God and one Bible and one Truth taught in that one Bible.

So we appeal to objective methods to try and dampen subjective bias while also listening to the Holy Spirit in our sola scriptura testing methods.

 

[JAL]

Agreed. Many opinions but only one God and one Bible and one Truth taught in that one Bible.

So we appeal to objective methods to try and dampen subjective bias while also listening to the Holy Spirit in our sola scriptura testing methods.

Subjective methods don't work? Too bad. Seems prophecy doesn't work, then. Therefore:
...(1) You should throw out your bible, as it was written by subjective prophets.
...(2) Paul was quite the fool, commanding us to pursue the subjective gift of prophecy.

Agreed?

 

[JAL]

....(3) And don't believe anything subjectively ascertained from the Inward Witness (such as the notion that the Bible is inspired).

 

[fhansen]

=

Acts 17:11 shows how some NT saints were using sola-scriptura to avoid false doctrine. "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF" those things spoken to them by the apostle Paul "were SO"

This is the real answer to the dilemma. The apostles and disciples already possessed the gospel truth, apart from Scripture which the Bereans could not discipher on their own without that added input of revelation received by Christ’s intimate followers. That group, the church, received, preserved, and proclaimed the truth before a word of the New Testament was written, and then some centuries later assembled the various writings into the canon of the New Testament.