Solution to the creation/evolution debate...?

[TLK Valentine]

I warned you:

And I knew you'd do it regardless of anything I said or did in response.

As I said, predictable... if nothing else.

 

[trophy33]

It doesn't matter how they thought or understood.

Thats the most spread error between self-learned Christians. They think everything in the Bible is in some kind of "all-time universal" language and misunderstand its message because of this.

When God had the words written down they were for all people through all of time, not just the people alive at the time. The words are for us as much as it was for them.

The whole Bible is written for us, but not to us. Its a big difference. The more centuries or even millenias separate us from the original audience, the more we must be careful reading it, not to insert our modern ideas into the text.

When God gave the ancient Israelite hygiene and quarantine laws he didn't explain germ theory, he told them do do certain things and all they had to do was obey.

Their hygiene and quarantine laws were of course very primitive and not too similar to ours.

It has nothing to do with the point, however (the point being - we must understand the language and cultural background of the authors).

Yes we can read it literally today, many of us do. It is not written the way Hebrew poetry is written and if as you claim it's meant to be read some other way then there should be some scriptural backup for that claim. Don't pretend that you are forced to read it in some other way, you choose to do so.

Yes, many American evangelicals do, thats why many got into some weird conflict with science.

Most Christians world wide dont, though.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Thats the most spread error between self-learned Christians. They think everything in the Bible is in some kind of "all-time universal" language and misunderstand its message because of this.

Not just self-learned; there are religious institutions which thrive on this...

The whole Bible is written for us, but not to us. Its a big difference. The more centuries or even millenias separate us from the original audience, the more we must be careful reading it, not to insert our modern ideas into the text.

And herein lies the fundamentalist problem -- rather than bring the Bible into the future, they strive to drag the rest of us back into the past.

They are, of course, doomed to fail -- progress and social change are inevitable -- but they will cause no small amount of hurt on the rest of us in their efforts. They always do.

 

[Neogaia777]

About Satan, he is just is what he is, yes, but he will never accept the free gift of Jesus Christ, for his pride, and great egotism and arrogance, just won't let him...

He tries to find and opening through sin, and then he tries to manipulate, and lie, and cheat, and decieve, and trick, and also tries to steal and kill and destroy once he is successful in that, and that is only if you do not have the protection of God and God let's him after that, etc...

His purposes/wills/desires are just wholly evil, and there is just no good ones in him, etc...

But is he only serving the the Father's will and/or purposes...? IDK...?

But his purposes are done once there is no more sin, etc, and he will not be able to exist in a world without sin, or without any further possibility of sin any longer after that, etc...

This is why when Jesus comes back and sets up His Kingdom on earth for the seventh and last day, he will not be there temporarily...

But will be back for one last time at the ending of that day, and that will be in order to try and tempt/trick/manipulate/decieve one last time all of those who took part in the first resurrection, and the choice that will be set before them at the end of that day, will be the very same exact choice Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden, and at the beginning, but it will be each individual one this time around, and those who did take part in the first resurrection, and pass the test after that, will get to go to Heaven and be in Heaven forever and ever after that, etc...

But Satan is the lying, cheating, manipulating, deceiving, and stealing and killing and destroying angel, and he cannot ever change, or won't ever be anything other than what he is, etc, and so has no place and no further purpose in any kind of environment that has no sin, or that has eliminated the possibility of sin any longer, and his existence will come to an end after that, or he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire after that, etc...

God Bless!

 

[TLK Valentine]

About Satan, he is just is what he is, yes, but he will never accept the free gift of Jesus Christ, for his pride, and great egotism and arrogance, just won't let him...

Nevertheless, Satan could repent -- you're just saying that he just chooses not to.

Imagine if he did, though... oh, to be a fly on that heavenly wall...

His purposes/wills/desires are just wholly evil, and there is just no good ones in him, etc...

But is he only serving the the Father's will and/or purposes...? IDK...?

God said His creation was "Very Good..." how can anything He created ever be "wholly evil"?

But his purposes are done once there is no more sin, etc, and he will not be able to exist in a world without sin, or without any further possibility of sin any longer after that, etc...

Will we be able to exist in such a world, I wonder...? Will we want to?

This is why when Jesus comes back and sets up His Kingdom on earth for the seventh and last day, he will not be there temporarily...

But will be back for one last time at the ending of that day, and that will be in order to try and tempt/trick/manipulate/decieve one last time all of those who took part in the first resurrection, and the choice that will be set before them at the end of that day, will be the very same exact choice Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden, and at the beginning, but it will be each individual one this time around, and those who did take part in the first resurrection, and pass the test after that, will get to go to Heaven and be in Heaven forever and ever after that, etc...

Indeed -- Satan's actions will be what it takes to pull the deus out of the machina once and for all...

But Satan is the lying, cheating, manipulating, deceiving, and stealing and killing and destroying angel, and he cannot ever change, or won't ever be anything other than what he is, etc,

Cannot ever be anything except what God created him to be?
And what is that? An enemy, or merely an adversary? The "Bad Cop" to God's "Good Cop"?

and so has no place and no further purpose in any kind of environment that has no sin, or that has eliminated the possibility of sin any longer, and his existence will come to an end after that, or he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire after that, etc...

And that's problematic, because sin is the result of the choice to disobey God...

...which means the only ways God can eliminate the possibility of sin would be to either take "choice" out of the equation, or take Himself out of the equation.

I don't see God doing the latter, and the former sounds like a living hell as a mindless drone.

 

[Neogaia777]

Nevertheless, Satan could repent -- you're just saying that he just chooses not to.

Imagine if he did, though... oh, to be a fly on that heavenly wall...

I think I can pretty much guarantee you he won't... He is what he is, etc...

He would have to "submit", or be submissive toward Christ and God, and I just don't think that is in him, or will ever be in him, etc...

God said His creation was "Very Good..." how can anything He created ever be "wholly evil"?

God the Father created beings with the propensity toward evil...

And that He already knew would choose evil...

For that is the way He made them...

But He uses it/them for the ultimate and best and most highest good in the end, but they themselves, cannot change, etc...

Will we be able to exist in such a world, I wonder...? Will we want to?

Sure we can or could, etc...

But whether some of us will want to or not, is a whole other story, etc...

Indeed -- Satan's actions will be what it takes to pull the deus out of the machina once and for all...

Perhaps...?

God the Father uses him to make others better, and/or refine them, by teaching them to know better, etc...

But the thing itself, cannot change, etc...

It is what it is, etc...

Cannot ever be anything except what God created him to be?
And what is that? An enemy, or merely an adversary? The "Bad Cop" to God's "Good Cop"?

A means to and end, a way of refining others and bringing the ultimate or most best and most highest good about, etc...

And that's problematic, because sin is the result of the choice to disobey God...

Supposedly, unless you think "choice" is matter of "perspective", etc...

...which means the only ways God can eliminate the possibility of sin would be to either take "choice" out of the equation, or take Himself out of the equation.

I don't see God doing the latter, and the former sounds like a living hell as a mindless drone.

Choice is matter of perspective I think, and differs from and/or between God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Spirit, etc...

And I don't see why any of them would be needing to be taking themselves out of the equation, etc...

And God can eliminate sin by causing us to know better, or choose better, etc...

Which is why we are all here I think, etc...

Except for the enemy of course, etc...

He is what he is, and will never learn to do anything different or choose any better or differently, etc...

God Bless!

 

[TLK Valentine]

I think I can pretty much guarantee you he won't... He is what he is, etc...

Aren't we all...

He would have to "submit", or be submissive toward Christ and God, and I just don't think that is in him, or will ever be in him, etc...

Or ever was in him...?

God the Father created beings with the propensity toward evil...

And so He must take the responsibility.

If I build a bomb and not take proper precautions, I'm responsible if it blows up..

And that He already knew would choose evil...

For that is the way He made them...

Which makes God, not Satan, responsible for evil.

But He uses it/them for the ultimate and best and most highest good in the end, but they themselves, cannot change, etc...

Cannot change because God won't allow them? How tragic.

Sure we can or could, etc...

But whether some of us will want to or not, is a whole other story, etc...

If you're right about Heaven, what any of us "want" won't be an issue...

Perhaps...?

God the Father uses him to make others better, and/or refine them, by teaching them to know better, etc...

But the thing itself, cannot change, etc...

It is what it is, etc...

And that's tragic... his sole purpose is to be a scapegoat.

A means to and end, a way of refining others and bringing the ultimate or most best and most highest good about, etc...

A highest good that he will never be permitted to be a part of, because God created him to be what he is...

Christ's sacrifice pales in comparison to this... furthermore, Christ at least chose his sacrifice..

Supposedly, unless you think "choice" is matter of "perspective", etc...

My perspective, my choice.

Choice is matter of perspective I think, and differs from and/or between God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Spirit, etc...

And I don't see why any of them would be needing to be taking themselves out of the equation, etc...

And God can eliminate sin by causing us to know better, or choose better, etc...

Which is why we are all here I think, etc...

Who knew better than Satan? Look what he "chose."

Except he didn't choose, did he? He was created to be part of the story...why should we believe we're any different?

Except for the enemy of course, etc...

He is what he is, and will never learn to do anything different or choose any better or differently, etc...

God Bless!

Right -- he will never be anything more than what God created him to be... an actor playing a part in the metaphysical melodrama.

Choice is a matter of perspective, you say? From my perspective, Jagger and Richards had it right; perhaps he does deserve a little sympathy... #pleaseallowmetointroducemyself

 

[Neogaia777]

Aren't we all...



Or ever was in him...?



And so He must take the responsibility.

If I build a bomb and not take proper precautions, I'm responsible if it blows up..



Which makes God, not Satan, responsible for evil.



Cannot change because God won't allow them? How tragic.




If you're right about Heaven, what any of us "want" won't be an issue...



And that's tragic... his sole purpose is to be a scapegoat.




A highest good that he will never be permitted to be a part of, because God created him to be what he is...

Christ's sacrifice pales in comparison to this... furthermore, Christ at least chose his sacrifice..




My perspective, my choice.




Who knew better than Satan? Look what he "chose."

Except he didn't choose, did he? He was created to be part of the story...why should we believe we're any different?



Right -- he will never be anything more than what God created him to be... an actor playing a part in the metaphysical melodrama.

Choice is a matter of perspective, you say? From my perspective, Jagger and Richards had it right; perhaps he does deserve a little sympathy... #pleaseallowmetointroducemyself

No one chooses or has chosen from God the Father's perspective, no one, etc...

But He did have to grow the good ones using bad ones, and also a world of evil temporarily for a time to do it temporarily for a time, etc...

But the bad ones will never be anything more than what they are made for here, and so will only ever just get only more of here, etc...

And the Rolling Stones were way off about the Devil, way off, etc...

(But I still kind of like that song though)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@TLK Valentine

The Devil will try to harm you if you offer him sympathy and you don't have God's protection, etc...

And this is because it is too close to pity, etc...

God Bless!

 

[TLK Valentine]

No one chooses or has chosen from God the Father's perspective, no one, etc...

Then from His perspective, none of us bear any responsibility.

OTOH, from my perspective, He has a lot of explaining to do.

But He did have to grow the good ones using bad ones, and also a world of evil temporarily for a time to do it temporarily for a time, etc...

Have to? No. Being God means He doesn't have to do anything. He chose it.

And with choice comes responsibility.

But the bad ones will never be anything more than what they are made for here, and so will only ever just get only more of here, etc...

What they were made for... by Him.

Don't blame the puppet; blame the Puppeteer.

And the Rolling Stones were way off about the Devil, way off, etc...

(But I still kind of like that song though)...

Not wrong, per se... they just omitted the part where he never had a choice in the matter... he is what he was created to be.

...and that does indeed deserve a little sympathy.

 

[TLK Valentine]

@TLK Valentine

The Devil will try to harm you if you offer him sympathy and you don't have God's protection, etc...

And this is because it is too close to pity, etc...

God Bless!

...but now I know he won't do it by choice... no more than a fire "chooses" to burn me if I stick my hand in it.

As you say, it is what it is, nothing more.

 

[Neogaia777]

Then from His perspective, none of us bear any responsibility.

OTOH, from my perspective, He has a lot of explaining to do.

Well, maybe you can ask Him to explain when you get there, etc...?

But I could maybe try to tell you "just some things about it maybe", if you wish...

Have to? No. Being God means He doesn't have to do anything. He chose it.

He could not create beings that were like Him, or that could be like Him, without also creating or making first, also all the experiences that they would have to go through in order to be like Him, or become like Him, etc.

What they were made for... by Him.

Don't blame the puppet; blame the Puppeteer.

I don't try to place the blame personally...

It all just "is what it is", etc...

He makes one vessel for one purpose, and then another for another purpose, etc...

It just "is what it is", etc...

And He can do whatever He wants with any of His own things, etc...

Not wrong, per se... they just omitted the part where he never had a choice in the matter... he is what he was created to be.

...and that does indeed deserve a little sympathy.

Again, he will try to harm you "even more" if you try to offer him any kind of sympathy, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

...but now I know he won't do it by choice... no more than a fire "chooses" to burn me if I stick my hand in it.

As you say, it is what it is, nothing more.

Pretty much...

Best not to play around with it, etc...

God Bless!

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, maybe you can ask Him to explain when you get there, etc...?

But I could maybe try to tell you "just some things about it maybe", if you wish...

You can tell me from your perspective, but I'm going to measure it according to my perspective.

He could not create beings that were like Him, or that could be like Him, without also creating or making first, also all the experiences that they would have to go through in order to be like Him, or become like Him, etc.

It sounds like you're claiming that God is not capable of creating maturity without a history.

Oh, @AV1611VET ... I do believe you're being paged...

I don't try to place the blame personally...

Let's not call it blame, let's call it responsibility.

It all just "is what it is", etc...

It is what it was created to be... so let's take it up with the creator.

He makes one vessel for one purpose, and then another for another purpose, etc...

And when the purpose is evil, do we hildthe vessel responsible, or the maker?

It just "is what it is", etc...

It is what it was created to be.

And He can do whatever He wants with any of His own things, etc...

And what isn't His own things?

Again, he will try to harm you "even more" if you try to offer him any kind of sympathy, etc...

God Bless!

Does he have a choice?

 

[Neogaia777]

You can tell me from your perspective, but I'm going to measure it according to my perspective.

OK...?

It sounds like you're claiming that God is not capable of creating maturity without a history.

Maybe He can, or maybe He can't, or maybe He just won't, etc...

But a past or a history does kind of define or create or dictate who we are, or what we will become, etc...

And to know God, we kind of have to have a similar past as Him so we can "relate" to Him also, etc...

And for that, we need to have actually gone through it, and/or experienced it, etc...

At least in part anyway, etc...

Enough to identify and/or relate anyway, etc...

Let's not call it blame, let's call it responsibility.

What do you want to try and hold Him "responsible" for, etc...?

Because He only works all things out for only the greatest and highest and most best good in the end, etc...

So, what exactly do you want to hold Him responsible for, etc...?

It is what it was created to be... so let's take it up with the creator.

What do you want to take up with Him...?

And when the purpose is evil, do we hildthe vessel responsible, or the maker?

What do you want to try and hold Him responsible for, etc...?

It is what it was created to be.

Yes, and...?

And what isn't His own things?

Nothing.

Does he have a choice?

Not really, or not technically, etc, but what is your point, etc...?

Look, let's make this really simple, and you just cut to the chase and you just tell me right now what your number one problem or issue is with a God with which there is technically no such thing as choice or free will, or that also can and will and does use and/or creates or makes evil and/or sin to accomplish His ends, or as a means to His ends, OK...?

And you just tell me what that number one issue is, OK...?

And then maybe I can tell you some more of the rest from there, OK...

God Bless!

 

[ruthiesea]

I completely disagree for a few reasons.

Firstly we know God cannot lie.
Titus 1:2


2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
I am sure both of us can agree on this point.

With the first point in mind the second is that all scripture is God breathed. There is nothing in scripture that is untrue or there by accident or simply written down by men who were as one person put it 'written by ignorant goat herders'
2 Timothy 3:16-17


16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Third you have not just Genesis but dozens of scriptures throughout both the Old and the New testaments all in harmony with a literal reading.
Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words:
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
When people claim Genesis means something else, I say okay show me from scripture exactly how God wants it to be read. What scriptures do you have to support the claim that Genesis should be read as an allegory/parable/symbolism and why isn't a literal reading a valid view point? From scripture. If someone claims a piece of scripture is meant to be read a certain way the claim need scriptural backing. I've yet to see any.

Forth instead of assuming that God is deceptive why not assume man is deceptive? Why do people assume science is true at all? Did they see dinosaurs turn into birds? Did they view the Big bang? The world as God created it isn't here to be looked at or measured or be evaluated in any way. All mankind has is the world as it is now; a fallen groaning corrupted world, yet makes makes claims to a time he can't ever see, touch, sample or experience and says it is a fact. To me this is the arrogance of man, the deceptiveness of man and it has nothing to do with what God made. God didn't deceive anyone, the world simply changed radically from what he created to what it is now.

Genesis can be read literally and trusted as can all of scripture. If someone would rather believe the words of men who weren't there and didn't see who have never sampled what the created world was then that is on them, but the claims of men do not make God deceptive.
Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

And yet there are those who believe that Genesis is true but is not to be taken as a history book. That there are deeper truths. That Torah is meant to teach us righteousness and not history or science.

 

[TLK Valentine]

OK...?



Maybe He can, or maybe He can't, or maybe He just won't, etc...

But a past or a history does kind of define or create or dictate who we are, or what we will become, etc...

And to know God, we kind of have to have a similar past as Him so we can "relate" to Him also, etc...

And for that, we need to have actually gone through it, and/or experienced it, etc...

At least in part anyway, etc...

Enough to identify and/or relate anyway, etc...

And let us assume that He can create a fully mature... let's say human being... with no past, no memories, no context, no history, and in act chooses to do it.

Would such a human be able to function? Would "human" even be a fitting term for such a creation?

What do you want to try and hold Him "responsible" for, etc...?

Because He only works all things out for only the greatest and highest and most best good in the end, etc...

So, what exactly do you want to hold Him responsible for, etc...?

Well, we can start with Satan -- dreaded enemy, loyal employee, or helpless puppet?

Look, let's make this really simple, and you just cut to the chase and you just tell me right now what your number one problem or issue is with a God with which there is technically no such thing as choice or free will, or that also can and will and does use and/or creates or makes evil and/or sin to accomplish His ends, or as a means to His ends, OK...?

And you just tell me what that number one issue is, OK...?

And then maybe I can tell you some more of the rest from there, OK...

God Bless!

How about Hell? In a world where there is "technically" no such thing as choice or free will, who is responsible for the souls in Hell...

...including Satan himself?

 

[Neogaia777]

And let us assume that He can create a fully mature... let's say human being... with no past, no memories, no context, no history, and in act chooses to do it.

Would such a human be able to function? Would "human" even be a fitting term for such a creation?

Well, I think we would be getting into a lot of theoretical's here that I don't think we can fully answer right now, etc...

But I doubt such a thing, or creature/being, could actually exist, etc...

Well, we can start with Satan -- dreaded enemy, loyal employee, or helpless puppet?

How about something that was never truly alive to begin with, etc...

How about Hell? In a world where there is "technically" no such thing as choice or free will, who is responsible for the souls in Hell...

...including Satan himself?

Ah, yes, "hell", the place of eternal proverbial never ending flames and torment, etc...

Well, I think "hell" is "here", and being eternally stuck here forever, and never ever getting to go beyond it at all ever, etc...

God Bless!

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ah, yes, "hell", the place of eternal proverbial never ending flames and torment, etc...

Well, I think "hell" is "here", and being eternally stuck here forever, and never ever getting to go beyond it at all ever, etc...

God Bless!

You have a very low opinion of God's creation... personally, I look around and think that with a little work, this place is a real fixer-upper...

 

[Neogaia777]

You have a very low opinion of God's creation... personally, I look around and think that with a little work, this place is a real fixer-upper...

Very funny, lol...

But seriously, this place is only here only so that some of us can become the best and highest versions of ourselves and go beyond this after this, etc, and that is the only reason it is even here, etc...

God Bless!