Solution to the creation/evolution debate...?

FrumiousBandersnatch · Mar 16, 2022

enoob57 said:
what evidence can you put forth of an eternal existence of this universe?

None. What evidence can you put forth of an eternal creator?

The way I see it, the universe indisputably exists and has existed for a very long time. We don't yet have the physics to extrapolate back beyond a certain time, but there are a number of ideas for how it could be either eternal or temporally finite but unbounded, that are not inconsistent with the physics we do have.

OTOH, we have thousands of origin myths & legends, and thousands of descriptions of gods, some of which are creator gods, many of which are contradictory (i.e. cannot easily be explained as different interpretations of the same thing), and all of which have the hallmarks of human imagination and story-telling. The claims made about them are unsubstantiated or untestable and we have no evidence that any of them exist.

So both science and origin myths & deities attempt to provide satisfying explanations for the unexplained history or origin of our universe.

Science has a proven track record of describing and explaining the universe, so I'm prepared to wait and see whether we can discover any more about the history and/or origin of our universe.

The explanatory power of origin myths and deities appears limited to their influence on human behaviour, so I see no reason to give significant credence to any of them, whether they happen to be currently popular or not.

enoob57 · Mar 16, 2022

Estrid said:
Learning some physics beats
guessing. Same with how atheists think.
Part of it is the humble acceptance of mysteries
that may never be solved.

Yes I enjoy learning things... it is quite pleasuable! Atheists are biased by there own thought and identifying of themselves.

These mysteries you speak of are (for me) indicators of the intensity of what is truly here... and the more we know the more is generated to be known. The existence of what we have began in humbles all to say the least...

Estrid said:
Your question also applies to any "god".
Where did it come from, how did it get so smart.

of all gods generated in the minds of men: all seem to carry our qualities and highest goals are just more the same we have began in... greek gods were of this, Allah the highest of thought is virgins, atheist returning to nothingness, etc. However The God of The Bible is unique to itself and no other! Heaven according to God is not comparable to any of this we have began in...

Estrid said:
Genesis describes how earth was formed, in
poetic language. There's nothing in the account that matches or is not directly contradicted any actual data.

If you began in a place where lies have been so cleverly constructed you could not recognize them as lies ... how would you expect to find the truth?

FrumiousBandersnatch · Mar 16, 2022

enoob57 said:
If you began in a place where lies have been so cleverly constructed you could not recognize them as lies ... how would you expect to find the truth?

Good question - and the ~~lies~~ stories don't have to be particularly cleverly constructed, as long as they appeal to human psychology - such as: belonging to a special group, having certainty, a clear moral framework, powerful & benign authority figure(s), magic & mystery, the promise of future rewards, feeling loved and cherished by a transcendent entity, the promise of eternal life, etc.

People that grow up in such environments, or get sucked into them, tend to believe that they have the truth.

Hans Blaster · Mar 16, 2022

Since you think the compatibility of science and your version of GEnesis are contained in this post, I will address it scientifically. (And the rest of this thread has degenerated.)

Neogaia777 said:
This might help in regards to this discussion as well, etc...

Day 1 and 2- The creation of the universe, formation of stars/planets, solar systems, etc, and our solar system, and the initial formation of the earth as a planet, creation and separating of "dimensions" like the separating of the Heavenly realms and/or dimensions, from the more physical ones, etc, beginnings of the atmosphere and beginnings of the literal seas on the earth on day 2, etc... Or whatever or however you interpret the "separating and dividing of waters from waters" to mean, etc, with the one(s) above being called "Heaven", etc...

First of all it should go without saying that none of these things happened in a day. Even if you want to use some poetic-language interpretation, "day" is a really bad word for these vague epochs.

Through the formation of the Earth, this is an acceptable description of the scientific record of the origin of the Earth. Then things go a bit awry...

There is no "separating of dimensions". Period. "Dimensions" are geometric coordinates they are not alternative realities or places. (Sorry all of that "dimensions" stuff in Sci Fi is wrong.)

Neogaia777 said:
Day 3- Dry land appears and is made apart from the sea or the seas on earth, etc, earth is very "volcanic" at the time, and the sky is still dark and covered with lots of clouds of dust and ash, some light shining through but not much yet, further formation of the atmosphere, and the very beginnings of very simple, extremely primitive plant life, in the form of algae, proteins and primitive bacteria maybe, etc, primordial ooze, etc, by the end of day 3 that is going to become more complex in Day 4...

This starts off completely wrong. "Dry land" did not emerge from an ocean. That is backwards. The surface of the Earth started out hot (from bombardment) and eventually water condensed from the atmosphere to form bodies of liquid. That water came either from volcanic outgassing or comets.

Neogaia777 said:
Day 4- Sky begins to clear up, and the volcanic activity on the earth begins to settle down a bit, plant life, now having more light, begins to become more complex forms of plant life, the "revealing" of the sun and moon and stars on the earth due to the skies clearing up, etc...

I don't know the history of primitive Earth's cloud cover, but the dominance of the algae transformed the atmosphere to one like today: Nitrogen-oxygen with some cloud cover. Long before "complex plant life" there would have been gaps in the clouds. (The "revealing" of the celestial bodies is a very Earth-surface centered view too.)

Neogaia777 said:
Day 5- The age or era of sea life, sea creatures and sea animals begin to come about and become more complex by the beginning of day 6, plant life continuing to evolve and become more complex in or on both the land and in the sea, etc, no land animals yet, etc...

The first complex animal life and plant life emerge roughly at the same time from single celled eukaryotes. The first land animals were insects, etc., evolved from similar sea creatures with hard shells.

Neogaia777 said:
Day 6- The age of land animals and man, land animals come about for the first time (from the sea creatures), and become more complex, till they eventually lead to the first race of man coming about, and the fall happens with the greater race of Man (the original Sons of God) and in and with their special creation, (Garden of Eden), etc, we are still in day 6 now till the results of the fall are fixed or restored, then will begin day 7...

This is a reasonable simplification of the development of quadrapedal animals on land with the unneeded religious bits added.

Neogaia777 said:
Day 7- The age or era of the rule and reign of Christ on earth and the setting up of God's Kingdom on earth which Christ will now lead, results or consequences of the fall are restored or fixed, (and we go back to being vegetarians again, etc), and this age will last until the end of the entire earth and the universe as we know it, etc, and then comes the very last final judgement of all, etc, and then a whole entire new one (creation) will be started and/or made over again, in which those who are truly saved by the end of it all will get to take part in (again), etc...

And then that will be the start of day 8, or day 1 all over again, etc...

God Bless!

And now it's just pure religion. There is no non-religious reason to think any of this will happen.

ottawak · Mar 16, 2022

AV1611VET said:
Well I certainly don't take it that way.

That's up to you. What difference does it make?

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

ottawak said:
What difference does it make?

13.7 billion years.

TLK Valentine · Mar 16, 2022

AV1611VET said:
13.7 billion years.

Embedded years, or ones that actually happened?

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

TLK Valentine said:
Embedded years, or ones that actually happened?

Embedded YEARS?

TLK Valentine · Mar 16, 2022

AV1611VET said:
Embedded YEARS?

13.7 billion of them -- were they real or embedded?

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

TLK Valentine said:
13.7 billion of them -- were they real or embedded?

Neither -- there's no such animal.

ottawak · Mar 16, 2022

AV1611VET said:
13.7 billion years.

No, they are two different questions:

1. How old is the universe we are living in now?
2. Was it created ex nihilo or ex materia?

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

ottawak said:
No, they are two different questions:

1. How old is the universe we are living in now?
2. Was it created ex nihilo or ex materia?

1. The universe is as old as God willed it to be. I'll address any age. If you think it's only 6000 years, that's fine. If you think it's 60 trillion years, that's fine. But what I won't accept, is the fact that the universe has been in existence going back beyond 4004 BC.

2. Both. But mainly ex nihilo. The events of the Creation Week were a series of miracles that raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

In case anyone's interested, here's a creationism test that I made up, based on what I would teach if I taught Creationism:

1. Explain the difference between creatio ex nihilo and creatio ex materia; and give two examples of each.
2. Explain the difference between "God" and "LORD God".
3. Eden in the Bible is known as __________ on a secular map.
4. What literary device reconciles Genesis 1 and Genesis 2?
5. Put the following in order that they appeared in the universe: whales, stars, trees, sun, land, sea, outer space.
6. What day was Adam created on?
7. Was the universe created a closed system and, if not, what kind of energy did it run off of? if it was created open, what closed it?
8. Describe terra aqua and what kind of water it consisted of and why.
9. Photosynthesis required light from the sun prior to the Fall. true or false?
10. Explain how a 24-hour day could transpire before the sun was created.
11. Explain the difference between "miracles" and "magic."
12. When discussing Creationism, why should one never let himself stray from Genesis 1 or 2?
13. Why is "heaven" singular in Genesis 1, but plural in Genesis 2?

Astrid · Mar 16, 2022

ottawak said:
No, they are two different questions:

1. How old is the universe we are living in now?
2. Was it created ex nihilo or ex materia?

3 was it created

ottawak · Mar 16, 2022

AV1611VET said:
1. The universe is as old as God willed it to be. I'll address any age. If you think it's only 6000 years, that's fine. If you think it's 60 trillion years, that's fine. But what I won't accept, is the fact that the universe has been in existence going back beyond 4004 BC.

2. Both. But mainly ex nihilo. The events of the Creation Week were a series of miracles that raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

It's still zero.

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

ottawak said:
It's still zero.

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

QV please:

Davian said:
From what I understand of the standard model of cosmology, it is still at zero. How does that work?

AV1611VET said:
It is at net zero ... there's the difference.

Subduction Zone said:
Wow!! AV has actually learned something!

And this man will explain how the universe has an energy of zero:

Krauss '09: "A Universe From Nothing" - YouTube

AV1611VET · Mar 16, 2022

Estrid said:
3 was it created

3 affirmative

enoob57 · Mar 16, 2022

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
Good question - and the ~~lies~~ stories don't have to be particularly cleverly constructed, as long as they appeal to human psychology - such as: belonging to a special group, having certainty, a clear moral framework, powerful & benign authority figure(s), magic & mystery, the promise of future rewards, feeling loved and cherished by a transcendent entity, the promise of eternal life, etc.

People that grow up in such environments, or get sucked into them, tend to believe that they have the truth.

I find it quite telling how atheist attack the Bible but not the easter bunny...

SelfSim · Mar 16, 2022

enoob57 said:
I find it quite telling how atheist attack the Bible but not the easter bunny...

Do any adults believe in the Easter bunny?

ottawak · Mar 16, 2022

enoob57 said:
I find it quite telling how atheist attack the Bible but not the easter bunny...

I don't really see how it's an attack on the Bible; perhaps you could be more specific.

Solution to the creation/evolution debate...?

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