Solution to praying to saints

[MrPolo]

I posted a paraphrase of this on another forum once. What does everyone think? This should solve the problem, no?

In discussions with those who do not believe in asking saints in heaven to pray for us, I have often encountered the "I only ask living Christians to pray for me because the dead are not omniscient or can't hear our prayers or the Bible forbids it." They really do not deny that those in heaven are righteous or that their prayers are very powerful. They also realize that by Scripture's example, it is good to ask others to pray for us (e.g. Rm 15:30)

What about a prayer to God like this: "God, please ask (person in heaven) to pray with me for the following intention...."

Would someone who used the red above find this prayer to solve the dilemma?? (Assuming you knew the person was in heaven.)

FYI, I have no problem praying directly to a saint for his/her intercession, and I even believe Scripture encourages it.

 

[WashedClean]

I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely zero sense to me, and I actually find it just as offensive as "asking a Saint to pray for you". You are going to the source and asking that source to ask someone he created to ask him to pray for you? Do you see how illogical that is?

Would you want one of your two children to come to you and say "Dad, can you ask my brother to ask you to bless me?" What???

Sorry, it doesn't fly with me.

 

[MrPolo]

I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely zero sense to me, and I actually find it just as offensive as "asking a Saint to pray for you". You are going to the source and asking that source to ask someone he created to ask him to pray for you? Do you see how illogical that is?

Would you want one of your two children to come to you and say "Dad, can you ask my brother to ask you to bless me?" What???

Sorry, it doesn't fly with me.

I don't see it that way because we would want those in heaven to pray for us. Why wouldn't you? You ask your friends to pray for you don't you? Surely they are suddenly no longer part of the Body of Christ when they are in heaven! My solution eliminates all the big "3" concerns that I listed in the red in the first post.

 

[MrPolo]

No one who ever argued praying to saints is wrong because they can't hear us wants to partake?

 

[Rick Otto]

That isn't the best reason not to pray to them.
When they say "dead", they mean deceased. By saying "dead" they don't mean to imply that they are not alive in heaven.
The reason for not praying to them prevents us from not wanting to pray to them, so the idea of finding away around the reason for not praying to them is a non-starter.

If they want to pray for us, I'm sure they do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, the easiest and most logical solution is to pray to God through His mediator, Jesus Christ. Then nobody will accuse you of doing anything that is not give in scripture. Also, you have the definite assurance that God does hear and will answer your prayers, whereas praying to saints, at best, is an iffy matter, indeed.

 

[MrPolo]

The reason for not praying to them prevents us from not wanting to pray to them

I do not understand this statement.

If they want to pray for us, I'm sure they do.

Paul could have said the same to the Romans in 15:30 and other verses, but he still asked them! We are one Body after all. Paul more than once asked for other humans to pray for him instead of going direct through the only mediator, Jesus Christ.

Actually, the easiest and most logical solution is to pray to God through His mediator, Jesus Christ.

See previous comment on Rm 15:30.

I'm trying to work with you all here! The question I am asking is wouldn't the OP be a valid way of getting deceased saints to pray with us as we asked them to pray for us when we could speak to them in time and space? (That is, for those who have the problems I addressed in the OP)

 

[Annolennar]

If I may ask: Is this intended as a solution for those who believe the practice to be impossible/sinful/etc, or for those who simply don't wish to do it?

For the former group, I suppose I could see it being viable. For the latter group, I don't think its going to really have any effect (if one doesn't want to, one doesn't have to, and certainly has no reason to if they don't feel comfortable).

 

[Rick Otto]

They weren't deceased. They were still incarnate. That is what we consider the relevant significant distinction.

The question I am asking is wouldn't the OP be a valid way of getting deceased saints to pray with us as we asked them to pray for us when we could speak to them in time and space? (That is, for those who have the problems I addressed in the OP)

If they could answer us in the flesh in time & space, & they weren't deceased, I would ask.

 

[MrPolo]

If I may ask: Is this intended as a solution for those who believe the practice to be impossible/sinful/etc, or for those who simply don't wish to do it?

For the former group, I suppose I could see it being viable. For the latter group, I don't think its going to really have any effect (if one doesn't want to, one doesn't have to, and certainly has no reason to if they don't feel comfortable).

Yes.

And if someone doesn't want to do it, that is fine...but they could no longer say it was inappropriate, because all of their concerns are accounted for.

 

[MrPolo]

They weren't deceased. They were still incarnate. That is what we consider the relevant significant distinction.

Right. Which is why I came up with a way around that in the OP. See my prior post also, which does not suggest everyone has to do this.

 

[christianmomof3]

They really do not deny that those in heaven are righteous or that their prayers are very powerful.

I am not sure "where" dead people are. Our ultimate goal is not to die and go to heaven. Our ultimate goal is to become a part of the holy city New Jerusalem. And, I don't think that dead people have more powerful prayers than living people.

 

[MrPolo]

I am not sure "where" dead people are. Our ultimate goal is not to die and go to heaven. Our ultimate goal is to become a part of the holy city New Jerusalem. And, I don't think that dead people have more powerful prayers than living people.

Ah, let me clarify. I said their prayers are very powerful, not because they were "dead," but because they are judged worthy of heaven, they are righteous (cf. 1 Pt 3:12)

 

[christianmomof3]

Ah, let me clarify. I said their prayers are very powerful, not because they were "dead," but because they are judged worthy of heaven, they are righteous (cf. 1 Pt 3:12)

How do you know who is "in heaven"? 1 Peter does not mention dead people. He does not say that the righteous people are dead or in heaven. He does not say that living people are not righteous.
He is encouraging us all to be righteous people.

 

[MrPolo]

How do you know who is "in heaven"? 1 Peter does not mention dead people. He does not say that the righteous people are dead or in heaven. He does not say that living people are not righteous.
He is encouraging us all to be righteous people.

1. If you do not trust the Church's declaration of saints in heaven, you can always pray to Moses or Elijah as a sola scripturist for their intercession. Or to the angels Michael or Gabriel.
2. Peter does not qualify the righteous as only those living on earth in time and space, as you suggest. He says the righteous are heard by God. To suggest the heavenly are not righteous is highly unbiblical!!

 

[christianmomof3]

God never said that Moses or Elijah should be prayed to.
In fact, He never said that anyone should be prayed to except for Himself.
The only time the Bible speaks of anyone praying to anyone other than to God is in reference to idolatry and to tell people not to be idolatrous.

 

[MrPolo]

God never said that Moses or Elijah should be prayed to.
In fact, He never said that anyone should be prayed to except for Himself.
The only time the Bible speaks of anyone praying to anyone other than to God is in reference to idolatry and to tell people not to be idolatrous.

Pray means to ask, like Paul did in Rm 15:30 to persons other than God. And we're back to post #1.

 

[christianmomof3]

Well, that is because that is why we should not pray to dead people.
They are not omnicient - they can't hear our prayers - nowhere in the Bible is anyone shown praying to dead people or told to pray to dead people in fact, contact with the dead is forbidden.
If you want to ask someone to pray for you or to pray with you, then it is fine to ask a living person to pray for or with you, but it is not necessary.
It is not correct to speak to the dead nor is it correct to assume that dead people sit around listening omniciently to living people in order to pass our prayers on to God like some sort of heavenly phone operator.
We can and should pray directly to God ourselves.
There is no reason to pray to dead people or to ask dead people (as if they could hear us) to pray for us.

 

[MrPolo]

Well, that is because that is why we should not pray to dead people.
They are not omnicient - they can't hear our prayers - nowhere in the Bible is anyone shown praying to dead people or told to pray to dead people in fact, contact with the dead is forbidden.
If you want to ask someone to pray for you or to pray with you, then it is fine to ask a living person to pray for or with you, but it is not necessary.
It is not correct to speak to the dead nor is it correct to assume that dead people sit around listening omniciently to living people in order to pass our prayers on to God like some sort of heavenly phone operator.
We can and should pray directly to God ourselves.
There is no reason to pray to dead people or to ask dead people (as if they could hear us) to pray for us.

My dear, I addressed all your concerns in the OP!!

 

[simonthezealot]

My source tells me to do it like this...and I trust Him more than anyone!
After this manner[SIZE=+0] therefore[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] pray[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] ye[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: Our[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Father[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] which[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] art in[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] heaven[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Hallowed be[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] thy[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] name[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]