Solution to praying to saints

[Kristos]

My source tells me to do it like this...and I trust Him more than anyone!
After this manner[SIZE=+0] therefore[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] pray[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] ye[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: Our[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Father[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] which[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] art in[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] heaven[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Hallowed be[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] thy[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] name[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]

That's a good one. Just don't say it more than once or else the vain repetition Nazis will get after you

 

[MrPolo]

My source tells me to do it like this...and I trust Him more than anyone![/COL]
After this manner[SIZE=+0] therefore[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] pray[/SIZZE=+0] ye[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: Our[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Father[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] which[/SIZE=+0] art in[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] heaven[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Hallowed be[/SIZE][SIZE=+]

And so you should. But off-topic.

 

[Rick Otto]

That's a good one. Just don't say it more than once or else the vain repetition Nazis will get after you

You mean Nazis like Herr Matthew?
Mt 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

In response to..
"I only ask living Christians to pray for me because the dead are not omniscient or can't hear our prayers or the Bible forbids it."

It is the Holy Spirit that allows the Saints in heaven to hear us... because He united us all as the Body of Christ.. people do not leave the Church once they die.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is the Holy Spirit that allows the Saints in heaven to hear us... because He united us all as the Body of Christ.. people do not leave the Church once they die.

Hi, Monica.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi!

 

[christianmomof3]

In response to..
"I only ask living Christians to pray for me because the dead are not omniscient or can't hear our prayers or the Bible forbids it."

It is the Holy Spirit that allows the Saints in heaven to hear us... because He united us all as the Body of Christ.. people do not leave the Church once they die.

In response to that, - yes, we are still members of the Body of Christ after we die.
However, death is death and the Bible does forbid contacting the dead. And, there are no examples in the Bible anywhere of people praying to the dead or being told to pray to the dead.
And lastly, I believe that God exists because, not only does the Bible tell me so and other believers tell me so, but because I personally experience Him. He lives in me and I know Him intimately. He contacts me.
I have had no experience of or contact from dead people.

 

[MamaZ]

Nor would I accept any contact from dead people for they have not been risen incorruptable yet..

 

[Kristos]

You mean Nazis like Herr Matthew?
Mt 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Naturlich, nein. Das ist nitch anwendbar.

 

[Kristos]

Nor would I accept any contact from dead people for they have not been risen incorruptable yet..

Yeah, like that crazy guy Moses on Mt Tabor!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

In response to that, - yes, we are still members of the Body of Christ after we die.
However, death is death and the Bible does forbid contacting the dead.

the Bible forbids necromancy, that is asking the dead for information or wanting them to contact you and tell you about the future, etc. The Bible no where forbids asking *living* Saints in heaven to pray for you also at the time of the Old Testament...when these commands were given...Christ had not yet overcome death. We're living in a new covenant with God, and certain things are different now. Necromancy is still forbidden, and always will be. But when we ask Saints to pray for us, we're not asking them for information or to talk to us...but simply to pray for us to God.

And, there are no examples in the Bible anywhere of people praying to the dead or being told to pray to the dead.

And lastly, I believe that God exists because, not only does the Bible tell me so and other believers tell me so, but because I personally experience Him. He lives in me and I know Him intimately. He contacts me.
I have had no experience of or contact from dead people.

I've had some miraculous things happen to me through the intercession of Saints and Mary. And Christians have been praying this way since the early church days..

Peace

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Nor would I accept any contact from dead people for they have not been risen incorruptable yet..

what about God answering their prayers as they intercede on your behalf? (that's not them contacting you)

For example...you ask Mary to pray for you about something...and God answers that prayer. Because that is basically the idea I'm talking about here.

They may not be risen incorruptible but they are alive - their souls are alive in heaven.. they are also sinless.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yeah, like that crazy guy Moses on Mt Tabor!

good point.

 

[mont974x4]

I posted a paraphrase of this on another forum once. What does everyone think? This should solve the problem, no?

In discussions with those who do not believe in asking saints in heaven to pray for us, I have often encountered the "I only ask living Christians to pray for me because the dead are not omniscient or can't hear our prayers or the Bible forbids it." They really do not deny that those in heaven are righteous or that their prayers are very powerful. They also realize that by Scripture's example, it is good to ask others to pray for us (e.g. Rm 15:30)

What about a prayer to God like this: "God, please ask (person in heaven) to pray with me for the following intention...."

Would someone who used the red above find this prayer to solve the dilemma?? (Assuming you knew the person was in heaven.)

FYI, I have no problem praying directly to a saint for his/her intercession, and I even believe Scripture encourages it.

While I certainly appreciate your attempt to find a compromise on this issue, it just isn't possible.

We simply see no biblical reason to pray in anyway that is different than what Jesus Himself taught.

Besides, why would you want ask God to ask "Fred" to join you in prayer? You would already be talking to the One and only God of the universe, who is faithful to answer your prayers.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Bible no where forbids asking *living* Saints in heaven to pray for you

This is a stretch at best of the meaning of the word "living".

 

[MamaZ]

what about God answering their prayers as they intercede on your behalf? (that's not them contacting you)

For example...you ask Mary to pray for you about something...and God answers that prayer. Because that is basically the idea I'm talking about here.

They may not be risen incorruptible but they are alive - their souls are alive in heaven.. they are also sinless.

I don't see that they do intercede on my behalf. For that is what Christ does. He forever lives to intercede for us. On difference though. He has His incorruptable body and is seated at the right hand side of God. I don't need to ask Mary or John anything for I can go right to the throne room of My God anytime I want and HE hears my prayers..

 

[Condor]

I posted a paraphrase of this on another forum once. What does everyone think? This should solve the problem, no?

In discussions with those who do not believe in asking saints in heaven to pray for us, I have often encountered the "I only ask living Christians to pray for me because the dead are not omniscient or can't hear our prayers or the Bible forbids it." They really do not deny that those in heaven are righteous or that their prayers are very powerful. They also realize that by Scripture's example, it is good to ask others to pray for us

What about a prayer to God like this: "God, please ask (person in heaven) to pray with me for the following intention...."

Would someone who used the red above find this prayer to solve the dilemma?? (Assuming you knew the person was in heaven.)

FYI, I have no problem praying directly to a saint for his/her intercession, and I even believe Scripture encourages it.

What do you do with this scripture?

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time (1 Tim 2:5-6 NIV)

Does not this indicate that Jesus is the only one that can talk to God for us? Or this scripture:

Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (Heb 4:16 N IV)

If I can approach the throne of grace with confidence then why do I need saints in heaven to pray for me?

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him. (1 John 5:14-15 NIV)

God does not answer prayers based on who asks but on the basis if they are in line with His will.

Do you think that the saints can hear multiple prayers at the same time? If you and 1000 other people ask God for Mary to pray for you, do you think that Mary can hear God ask her 1000 times at the same time? Mary is not omnicient and is a finite being.

 

[Kristos]

I don't see that they do intercede on my behalf. For that is what Christ does. He forever lives to intercede for us. On difference though. He has His incorruptable body and is seated at the right hand side of God. I don't need to ask Mary or John anything for I can go right to the throne room of My God anytime I want and HE hears my prayers..

Paul thinks he needs to intercede.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[Kristos]

What do you do with this scripture?


Does not this indicate that Jesus is the only one that can talk to God for us? Or this scripture:

If I can approach the throne of grace with confidence then why do I need saints in heaven to pray for me?

God does not answer prayers based on who asks but on the basis if they are in line with His will.

Do you think that the saints can hear multiple prayers at the same time? If you and 1000 other people ask God for Mary to pray for you, do you think that Mary can hear God ask her 1000 times at the same time? Mary is not omnicient and is a finite being.

According that thing you call the Bible, it seems that the prayers of the saints are a necessary part of worship. And not just some of the saints, but ALL of the saints.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Bible no where forbids asking *living* Saints in heaven to pray for you

The Bible no where examples asking *living* saints in heaven to pray for you.