Soldiers and Thou Shalt Not Kill

[wayseer]

When did you stop reading posts so you could pretend they don't exist?

You have lost me here.

 

[ebia]

You have lost me here.

Obviously her posts are so clear, well argued, persuasive and self-evidently true that anyone who disagrees cannot be reading them.

 

[WinBySurrender]

You have lost me here.

I answered the questions. Try and keep up.

 

[ebia]

I answered the questions. Try and keep up.

I also haven't noticed any instance of you showing where Jesus promoted war.

You have read Jesus as supporting your OT derived understanding of God - a crazy thing to do in the light of Easter.

And you have pointed to Jesus not reprimanding the Centurion - ignoring that he represent the military forces of the enemy; to reprimand him would support not subvert expectations.

 

[Kurama]

But even vegetarians arent in the clear, because plants are living things too.

The meat industry requires the defoliation of thousands upon thousands of acres of land to sustain a population of meat eaters. Thus to say that vegetarians are ''killing'' plants, it is clear that meat eaters do far worse since a cow, for instance, eats twenty times more plants than a human being.

 

[Lovely Jar]

I remember a few scriptures when I read questions like this.

I remember the Hebrews violating the 6th commandment repeatedly at God's behest and all through much of the Old Testament. Which does still apply in the history of our faith because it's the foundation that bore it up.

And I remember Jesus saying to his disciples that if they did not own a sword sell their cloak and buy one. And of course Peter in the garden who had a sword and cut off a temple guards ear in the garden of Gethsemane.

The 6th commandment first read as thou shalt not murder. King James had it changed to kill. Military service is not murder.

Where do you stand on this issue? Can a Godly man be a soldier, especially during a wartime? And how do you reconcile between the commandment, and his duty?

My personal take is "Thou Shall Not Kill" is a slight error in translation from the original meaning "Thou Shall Not Murder."

Murder and Killing are two different things. Murder is done for selfish reasons, like finding your spouse in bed with another, murder to collect insurance money/inheritance, etc.

Besides, killing is too vague. If we go by just the commandment alone, "Thou Shall Not Kill"....well, how do we do that? I mean, we can't eat animals anymore. So no slaughtering chickens, cows, fish, etc. The commandment doesn't say anything about "humans only"

But even vegetarians arent in the clear, because plants are living things too.

What if you accidentally step on a bug?

Your body, right now, is designed with anti-bodies that are killing viruses and bacteria, which are living organisms. So, even doing nothing, you're still killing.

So I definitely subscribe to "thou shall not murder". And soldiers doing their duty are not to blame themselves. (unless of course, they're killing without orders, committing war crimes, etc)

 

[revrobor]

Do soldiers not murder? Are they not trained to kill?

What disgusts me when this subject is discussed is statements like this made by people who are apparently attempting to make themselves appear as some sort of super righteous person while demeaning those in the military many of whom are Believers. Jesus never condemned those in the military and at one point told His disciples to take their swords with them. Yes, settling things peacefully is the preferred way. But given the sinful nature of mankind it's not going to happen. If it weren't for our military we'd all be speaking German and saluting the swastika today.

 

[Harry3142]

Not only was Jesus not a pacifist, but he was in fact a member of a Jewish 'militia'.

In Luke 2:41-52 we read of Jesus' being left behind at the temple in Jerusalem when Mary and Joseph departed for Nazareth. However, what we need to take into account is the procedure for traveling through Judea and Galilee at that time. It was this procedure which caused neither parent to realize that Jesus was not among them.

In spite of what some Biblical movies show, men, women and children did not travel together in the same group. Instead, the men started out first in their own group, with the women and children following them after a few minutes of time. The reason for this was not elitism; it was security.

There were bandits laying in wait along the roads in that region, ready to attack any traveler who happened by, appeared to be vulnerable, and might have enough wealth on him to make it worth their while to kill him and take that wealth. For this reason the men carried whatever money their families might have, and they traveled together in order to fight as a unit any bandits that might attack them. They were also armed, carrying weapons with which to fight the bandits. Meanwhile, the women and children traveled in their own group at a sufficient distance behind the men so that they could see the attack and take cover, as well as their not being caught in the ensuing melee.

At the age of twelve, and only then, Jesus had a choice. He could either travel with his mother and younger siblings one last time as part of their group, or he could take his place with the men in their group. Because neither Mary nor Joseph saw him among them, they both assumed that he had chosen to travel with the other group. But the fact was that he was traveling with neither of them.

We read in Luke this verse:

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. (Luke 2:51a)

This obedience would have included his taking his rightful place among the men the following year, with the mindset that he would do his duty as one of the protectors of the women and children. IOW, in all likelihood from that time forward whenever Jesus traveled with his fellow Jews as they went to worship at the temple, as well as their return home, he was not only armed, but also prepared to use his weaponry in their common defense.

 

[ebia]

Not only was Jesus not a pacifist, but he was in fact a member of a Jewish 'militia'.

In Luke 2:41-52 we read of Jesus' being left behind at the temple in Jerusalem when Mary and Joseph departed for Nazareth. However, what we need to take into account is the procedure for traveling through Judea and Galilee at that time. It was this procedure which caused neither parent to realize that Jesus was not among them.

In spite of what some Biblical movies show, men, women and children did not travel together in the same group. Instead, the men started out first in their own group, with the women and children following them after a few minutes of time. The reason for this was not elitism; it was security.

There were bandits laying in wait along the roads in that region, ready to attack any traveler who happened by, appeared to be vulnerable, and might have enough wealth on him to make it worth their while to kill him and take that wealth. For this reason the men carried whatever money their families might have, and they traveled together in order to fight as a unit any bandits that might attack them. They were also armed, carrying weapons with which to fight the bandits. Meanwhile, the women and children traveled in their own group at a sufficient distance behind the men so that they could see the attack and take cover, as well as their not being caught in the ensuing melee.

At the age of twelve, and only then, Jesus had a choice. He could either travel with his mother and younger siblings one last time as part of their group, or he could take his place with the men in their group. Because neither Mary nor Joseph saw him among them, they both assumed that he had chosen to travel with the other group. But the fact was that he was traveling with neither of them.

We read in Luke this verse:

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. (Luke 2:51a)

This obedience would have included his taking his rightful place among the men the following year, with the mindset that he would do his duty as one of the protectors of the women and children. IOW, in all likelihood from that time forward whenever Jesus traveled with his fellow Jews as they went to worship at the temple, as well as their return home, he was not only armed, but also prepared to use his weaponry in their common defense.

That's an impressive conclusion to build on several layers of hypothosing and assuming that Jesus didnt "buck the trend".

 

[Michael Snow]

Charles Spurgeon said: " I always rejoice to find a soldier a Christian, but I always mourn to find a Christian a soldier,... The followers of Christ in these days seem to me to have forgotten a great part of Christianity."

Charles Spurgeon: On War and Christians | C.H. Spurgeon Quotes pertaining to pacifism

 

[revrobor]

I'm not interested in what Mr. Spurgeon said only what Jesus said.

 

[BelievingIsObeying]

Where do you stand on this issue? Can a Godly man be a soldier, especially during a wartime? And how do you reconcile between the commandment, and his duty?

My personal take is "Thou Shall Not Kill" is a slight error in translation from the original meaning "Thou Shall Not Murder."

Murder and Killing are two different things. Murder is done for selfish reasons, like finding your spouse in bed with another, murder to collect insurance money/inheritance, etc.

Besides, killing is too vague. If we go by just the commandment alone, "Thou Shall Not Kill"....well, how do we do that? I mean, we can't eat animals anymore. So no slaughtering chickens, cows, fish, etc. The commandment doesn't say anything about "humans only"

But even vegetarians arent in the clear, because plants are living things too.

What if you accidentally step on a bug?

Your body, right now, is designed with anti-bodies that are killing viruses and bacteria, which are living organisms. So, even doing nothing, you're still killing.

So I definitely subscribe to "thou shall not murder". And soldiers doing their duty are not to blame themselves. (unless of course, they're killing without orders, committing war crimes, etc)

Yes, a Godly man can be a soldier, but a Godly man does not kill. The commandments should always come first and supersede everything else.

Why does every bible version that I have say kill and not murder? Did Jesus say to not kill or murder?

Murder is killing with intent, killing is without intent - accidental. The sin is in the intent, not the action. If one intends to end someone's life, then it's murder. If not, it's just an accidental death.

I don't intentionally kill any animals anymore for this reason.

Soldiers murder, unless of course it's a stray bullet without the intent behind it, in which case it's an accidental death.

 

[holdfast4yourlife]

Hey there! This is what I would do. I can not kill nor would I desire to kill another human being because my conscience would not allow me to do that and God said in regard to others that I must not kill them. If however I am drafted into the war I can go and be of support to the wounded. I would choose the option to enter the military as a "Conscientious Objector" and not bare arms. I could also work in food service etc. This is still today an option especially for those who's religious beliefs do not permit them to take the life of another human being.

 

[Harry3142]

BelievingIsObeying-

You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you. (Deuteronomy 7:16,NIV)

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations - the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you - and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from me to serve other gods, and the Lord's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4,NIV)

When the trumpet sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. (Joshua 6:20-21,NIV)

Are you saying that God himself told his people to do what he saw as evil? I don't think so. A mistake many people make when atempting to comprehend God's nature is to confuse compassion with sentimentality, and confuse forgiveness with condonement. However, Scripture itself teaches that when God decides that 'enough is enough', he has no problem whatsoever with wiping out entire societies that have chosen to follow evil rather than good, and this has included his using those loyal to him to carry out those societies' eradication.

 

[BelievingIsObeying]

BelievingIsObeying-

You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you. (Deuteronomy 7:16,NIV)

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations - the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you - and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from me to serve other gods, and the Lord's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4,NIV)

When the trumpet sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. (Joshua 6:20-21,NIV)

Are you saying that God himself told his people to do what he saw as evil? I don't think so. A mistake many people make when atempting to comprehend God's nature is to confuse compassion with sentimentality, and confuse forgiveness with condonement. However, Scripture itself teaches that when God decides that 'enough is enough', he has no problem whatsoever with wiping out entire societies that have chosen to follow evil rather than good, and this has included his using those loyal to him to carry out those societies' eradication.

Jesus taught love and compassion for all, peace at all cost "do not resist an evil person", he spoke directly of Gods thoughts, so I trust his teachings more. I'm not saying that God told people to do something that he saw as evil, but that men misheard Him. Yes if God wanted to kill anyone it would be fully His right to do so, but not mans. It is our job to love, not kill, so Jesus who spoke as God taught us.

 

[Manford]

God in the old testament excused killing in the cases of self defense, accidental killing, judgment and war.





http://www.shapeways.com/model/1144977/4-5-inch-sculpted-cruxifix-figurine.html?li=productBox-search

 

[BelievingIsObeying]

God in the old testament excused killing in the cases of self defense, accidental killing, judgment and war.

But in the new testament, when He came in human form, He said otherwise. Who gets to decide when it's war or not? The attackers on 9/11 considered themselves at war with America.

 

[Manford]

I agree war is never excusable. War in the old testament was judgement on heathen nations. War in the new testament is inexcusable and never justified because God does is not judging as he did then but. But that is not to say that a soldier is condemnable for the thou shalt not kill command. because there were Roman soldier who were saved like cornelius in Act 10 and he was a soldier (centurion). Military men and police officers who kill in the line of duty are not necessarily in violation of this command. But those who commision them are held accountable for a just reason or no in killing.

Manford

4.5 inch Sculpted Cruxifix Figurine by 3dmncio on Shapeways

 

[bbyrd009]

A volunteer soldier has demonstrated where his fealty lies, wadr. You cannot serve two masters; and the aims of kings--whom soldiers serve--are plainly described in Scripture, many times. The illusion that you are a practicing Christian with a gun and a mandate to fulfill the best interests of your country is popular, and indefensible in Scripture.

1 Sam 8 plainly describes the fruit of a 'king,' or Government, and those who live by the sword...