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Sola Scripturists guide on the authority of the Bible

LittleLambofJesus

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*bored tone* Jesus didn't quote Song of Solomon either. And who cares about whether or not they were rejected by the Jews? Jews /= Christians.
What about Luke 23:28 :confused:
The phrase "daughters of Jeruslem" is only used in the SoS and Luke 23 ;)

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
("daughters of jerusalem")
occurs in 8 verses in the KJV

Luke 23:28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
 
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laconicstudent

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Yes, this is my understanding. The Jewish authorities that came together to "edit" for lack of a better word, the OT, they did not keep those books originally kept their by their former Jewish authorities because there were too explicit descriptions of Christ and also how the Mother of God was explained in there as well, is what I've read on this and heard.

Yeah, what I've heard as well. Basically, they were getting their heads handed to them (figuratively) by Christians in debate, so they did some editing of their canon at Jamnia in 70. Jamnia is a legendary council by the way. There is no primary historical evidence of it ever occurring. :D
 
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Dorothea

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Did the book of Reve also use the LXX/Sept. :confused:

For example, the song of Moses is mentioned in Reve 15 which is quoting from Exodus 15 [coincidentally, using the same chatp #s]. Thoughts? :wave:

Exodus 15:1 Then Mosheh is singing and sons of Yisra'el the song, this to YHWH.
And they are saying to say of "I shall sing to YHWH that to exalt He exalts. Horse and one riding of him He heaved into sea [Reve 15:3]

Reve 15:3 And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the God
and the Song of the Lambkin saying "great and marvelous the Works of Thee Lord! the God, the Almighty. Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints" [*ages/*nations].


THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
I am looking up info on this for you, LLOJ. Here's what I found on the overall info on the Septuagint, but does mention something about what you asked:

The Septuagint:
Old Testament of the Orthodox Church



From the earliest days of the Church until this very day, the Old Testament text of the Orthodox Church has been and remains the Septuagint - the Greek translation tradition tells us was made in the third century B.C., in Alexandria. Yet this book, so central to the Faith, has never been translated into English in its totality. The traditional account of the origin of the Septuagint tells us it was translated from the original Hebrew by seventy (or perhaps seventy-two) pious Jews at the order of King Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-246 B.C.). How did it happen? How is it that this Greek language edition made in far off Alexandria became the Bible used by our Lord's Apostles and their successors?

HISTORY OF THE SEPTUAGINT

In about 94 A.D. the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus put together his great work, Antiquities of the Jews, relying heavily on the Scriptures, which he drew from the Septuagint version. By this time the Apostles of Christ were writing - Gospels and Epistles. And we see that they were using the Septuagint almost exclusively - of the two hundred thirty-eight passages from the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament, only four are from the Hebrew and all the rest from the Septuagint. Even the Revelation of St. John, which does not quote the Old Testament directly, is filled with Septuagint words and phrases. Examining the Gospels and the Epistles carefully, we are met over and over by words and phrases which cannot be fully understood without referring to their earlier use in the Septuagint.

BEYOND THE APOSTOLIC AGE

Moving beyond the Apostolic age, we find the Church "fathers" also using the Septuagint almost exclusively. Turning first to the Apostolic fathers, we find the Letter of Clement of Rome to Corinth so directly dependent upon the Septuagint as to establish his exclusive use of that version. Though St. Ignatius of Antioch quotes from the Old Testament only seldom in his letters, all his quotations and allusions to those Scriptures are from the Septuagint. The same is true of St. Polycarp of Smyrna.

In the middle and late second century A.D., we find both St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons heavily dependent upon the Septuagint, quoting from it extensively. Each gives an account of the history of this great translation, just as they had heard and read from those who preceded them. And we have only touched on the beginning, for the Septuagint continued to be the Old Testament of the Church. Produced not in the Holy Land, but in Alexandria, it was first a truly "popular" version among the Jews, having arisen in the first place from the needs of the people. Its use in the synagogues helped keep the faith alive amongst the people, preventing them from being completely dependent upon a priesthood which alone knew the sacred tongue. Now, among the Christians, it served the same end.

As the Church moved on, through the third and fourth centuries, the Septuagint continued to be the Old Testament of all the people. When Latin versions were first made in North Africa and the West, they were derived from the Septuagint until Jerome made a translation, the Vulgate, partially from Hebrew. In the East, and continuing in the Orthodox Church even till today, the Septuagint has remained the canonical Old Testament. As St. John Chrysostom wrote: "The Holy Spirit arranged for the Holy Books to be translated by the seventy interpreters....Christ came and received them. And the Apostles spread them everywhere" (Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews, Chapter VIII). Through the centuries since, the Church has continued to pass them on to people everywhere.

THE BIBLE OF THE CHURCH TODAY

Serving thus first the Jews of the Dispersion throughout the East, and then the Christians as they spread across the Roman Empire, the Septuagint was not only the proper Old Testament of the Church, but served as a model for the translation of the Scriptures into the vernacular of the peoples to whom the Gospel would be taken.

Concerning the accuracy of the Septuagint, we may profitably note that behind it lies a text more than a thousand years older than our earliest dated Hebrew manuscript - which dates from about 916 A.D. The very language of the New Testament is drawn from the Septuagint - affording a vocabulary of great benefit to the early Christian writers, and continues as our own to this very day. As we noted, all the writers of the New Testament use the Septuagint, and some use it exclusively. The Apostle Paul may have known the Hebrew text, but his Old Testament references come from the Greek version - the Septuagint. Clearly, the early Christian preachers and evangelists had in the Septuagint a Bible accepted as authoritative by the Jews and Christians alike. Their writings show that from it a collection of Messianic references was made and widely used to prove that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament revelation.

A MODEL

From the very beginning the Church used the Greek version as a model upon which to build its prayers and hymnody, singing the Septuagint version of the Psalms in the services. Never should we forget the value of this Old Testament version as an aid to evangelization. It had been constructed in the first place by Jews who found themselves in a foreign environment, a new intellectual world. Greek language and ideas were thrust at them from every side, and the Septuagint is a testament to their survival and prosperity in this environment. The success of this translation bears witness to the fact that their religion, belief in the one true God, could prosper in a world filled with Greek thought and language. Now the Septuagint was coming into its own in the hands of the Church established by the Son of God.

It is from the Septuagint that we get our names for the five books of Moses - the "Pentateuch" first of all, and then "Genesis," "Exodus," "Leviticus," "Numbers," "Deuteronomy." Also, innumerable terms so common we never think of their origin: ecclesia, priest, deacon, parable, apostle, prophet, angel, alms, and on and on.

From the Septuagint we also gained those books sometimes called "Deuterocanonical" or "Apocrypha" which are not in the Hebrew canon, but are so valuable to the Orthodox Church in her worship - including the beautiful and inspiring "Song of the Three Children," sung so often in our services. These useful and instructive books are interspersed throughout the Septuagint, and make it quite different from the Hebrew Old Testament. To those who object, saying, "But these books are not in the Hebrew canon," we must say in return, "We are not dealing with the Hebrew canon, but with the Bible of the Church, and these have been in our Bible from the very beginning. Our Old Testament is the Septuagint."

Old Testament and the Orthodox Church
 
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Dorothea

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Yeah, what I've heard as well. Basically, they were getting their heads handed to them (figuratively) by Christians in debate, so they did some editing of their canon at Jamnia in 70. Jamnia is a legendary council by the way. There is no primary historical evidence of it ever occurring. :D

Wow! I hadn't heard about that. :wave:
 
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laconicstudent

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What about Luke 23:28 :confused:
The phrase "daughters of Jeruslem" is only used in the SoS and Luke 23 ;)

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
("daughters of jerusalem")
occurs in 8 verses in the KJV

Luke 23:28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.

Ezra? Nehemiah? Esther? Ecclesiastes? A three word phrase is a rather tenuous connection, LLOJ....
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Ah, sleight of hand. Jesus quoted from the septuagint translation, which included the apocrypha.



1. This is ENTIRELY MOOT to the issue here. The Rule of Scripture (Sola Scriptura) does not teach what IS the Scriptures anymore than the Rule of Law tells us what the law is. They are PRACTICES of embracing a certain objective, knowable corpus as the rule for the evaluation of correctness, etc. The Rule of Scripture would be (and was) just as valid if Scripture consisted only of the Ten Commandments.


2. There was no tome of Scripture in Jesus' day. There were no tomes at all in Jesus' day. You must have some crazy idea that Jesus was walking around with a nice, leather bound edition of Scripture and on the front cover in genuine imitation gold letters "The Holy Septuagint" and some very, very weird idea that if we quote from one part of a tome we are embracing everything - so that if I quote from one post at CF and saying I agree ergo I'm saying I agree with every post at CF. Weird. Sorry. You've got it wrong. He had no such tome (no one did). Quoting from Genesis has NOTHING to do with endorsing Psalm 151 as Scripture. Obviously.


3. There's only ONE occasion where Jesus is reading from a scroll (and that was ONLY of Isaiah - not any EO DEUTERO book). All the other times, He is almost surely quoting from memory. It's what nearly everyone did until a few centuries ago when books became plentiful and cheap enough for people to personally own and carry around with them.


4. Now, if I had the SLIGHTEST clue what anything in your post had to do with anything..... But, I just can't keep up with all the diversions that seem to serve only to get people off the topic.







.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Ezra? Nehemiah? Esther? Ecclesiastes? A three word phrase is a rather tenuous connection, LLOJ....
What about Ezra 3 and Revelation 14 :)

Ezra 3:12 And many ones from the Priests and the Levites, and the Chiefs/ro'sh of the fathers, the elders, who saw the House, the former, in laying foundation of this House in view of them, ones lamenting in a loud voice
and many ones in shouting in rejoicing to raise up of voice.

Reve 14:8 And another messenger, second-one, follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations.
Reve 19:3 and a second time they have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7272732-6/#post48193672
The Court in Revelation 11:2
 
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laconicstudent

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Wow! I hadn't heard about that. :wave:

Yeah, lol, it always entertains me when people cite that Council, as if a Jewish council that would have rejected God Himself in its acts is reliable, as determining Scripture when it might be just a fantasy! :D


The concept of the Council of Jamnia is an hypothesis to explain the canonization of the Writings (the third division of the Hebrew Bible) resulting in the closing of the Hebrew canon. ... These ongoing debates suggest the paucity of evidence on which the hypothesis of the Council of Jamnia rests and raise the question whether it has not served its usefulness and should be relegated to the limbo of unestablished hypotheses. It should not be allowed to be considered a consensus established by mere repetition of assertion."

--Jack P. Lewis, The Anchor Bible Dictionary
 
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laconicstudent

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What about Ezra 3 and Revelation 14 :)

Ezra 3:12 And many ones from the Priests and the Levites, and the Chiefs/ro'sh of the fathers, the elders, who saw the House, the former, in laying foundation of this House in view of them, ones lamenting in a loud voice
and many ones in shouting in rejoicing to raise up of voice.

Reve 14:8 And another messenger, second-one, follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations.
Reve 19:3 and a second time they have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7272732-6/#post48193672
The Court in Revelation 11:2

I thought the standard was things Jesus quoted? If we are moving onto the entire New Testament, we have a nice quote of the Book of Enoch by St. Paul..... :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I thought the standard was things Jesus quoted? If we are moving onto the entire New Testament, we have a nice quote of the Book of Enoch by St. Paul..... :)
I could go on forever on the book of Revelation.

Which leads me to ask, how do the EOC view that book compared to the RCC? Just curious. Thanks
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I could go on forever on the book of Revelation.

Which leads me to ask, how do the EOC view that book compared to the RCC? Just curious. Thanks
I did find a few threads on the TAW board concerning Revelation.
I will have to browse thru them :wave:

The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox - Christian Forums
The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox

http://www.christianforums.com/t7016117/
Revelation

quote OP: So whats your take on the book of revelations? personally i believe 666 is for nero caesar, but so many people believe stuff like those veri chips and stuff is the mark of the beast. it seems like so many people are just taking things out of proportion but heh.
it even says in the book itll come as a thief in the night. meaning i suppose the more we expect it the less likely itll come. guess tho its neve bad to be prepare

http://www.christianforums.com/t6719425/
What does the EO teach of Revelations?

quote OP:The Book of Revelations is where I was taught about the coming Rapture in my Nazarene upbringing. Until a couple years ago, I had no idea that anyone in Christianity had any differing view. I can see how they interpret Revelations to project such a scenario (global government, mark of the beast, etc.) and I guess it seems logical in that sense.

I know the EO does not believe in the Rapture. Perhaps, it's more accurately to say not a pre-tribulation Rapture??? Anyway, what is the relevance of Revelations and what do you think it means?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus What about Luke 23:28
confused.gif

The phrase "daughters of Jeruslem" is only used in the SoS and Luke 23
wink.gif
Ezra? Nehemiah? Esther? Ecclesiastes? A three word phrase is a rather tenuous connection, LLOJ....
Well, at least the sons got mentioned one time :D

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YNG
("sons of Jerusalem")
occurs in 1 verse in the YNG
Page 1 / 1 inexact matches (Joe 3:6 - Joe 3:6)

Young) Joel 3:6 And sons of Judah, and sons of Jerusalem, ye have sold to the sons of Javan, To put them far off from their border.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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1. This is ENTIRELY MOOT to the issue here. The Rule of Scripture (Sola Scriptura) does not teach what IS the Scriptures anymore than the Rule of Law tells us what the law is. They are PRACTICES of embracing a certain objective, knowable corpus as the rule for the evaluation of correctness, etc. The Rule of Scripture would be (and was) just as valid if Scripture consisted only of the Ten Commandments.

I see. So then we could just as well use the Koran as our scripture (as the rule of scripture does not define what scripture is), and then follow Sharia law?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I see. So then we could just as well use the Koran as our scripture (as the rule of scripture does not define what scripture is), and then follow Sharia law?

You think you're being silly but you MIGHT just be starting to understand...

Of course, when CHRISTIANS embrace Scripture, we DO mean the Christian Scriptures - that would be the object. But yes, as a PRACTICE, it is the EMBRACE of Scripture.
So, yes - IF a denomination embraced Psalm 151 as Scripture as they used Psalm 151 as part of the Rule in the evaluation of a doctrine, technically - they would be practicing Sola Scriptura. The RCC would disagree that Psalm 151 IS Scripture but the PRACTICE would still be the same. Just as in the Rule of Law. The PRACTICE of the Rule of Law is the same in Arizona and Nevada even though the law so embraced is not.

But you're point continues to be moot. Except for a handful of DEUTERO books variously embraced by just 3 denominations (the OO, EO and RC) - all pretty much moot to any doctrine anyway - it's a moot point. We AGREE on MUCH, in fact all that ever tends to come into play anyway (when is the last time you remember a verse in Psalm 151 being central to a debate on a de fide dogma? Yeah - that's my point).

The point you raise COULD - potentially - be relevant to only one: the LDS since it's additional books DO come into play for LDS doctrines. But it's moot for one simple reason: They, like the OO, EO and RC, reject Sola Scriptura (whether by their unique canon or any other rule).
Unless you're a Mormon, your point is moot - and it's even moot if you're a Mormon since they don't permit the Rule of Scripture (or any other Rule) anyway. If you are switching to Mormonism and if Mormonism suddenly decides to embrce the Rule of Scripture, we can continue that discussion but otherwise, it's moot.





.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
Of course, when CHRISTIANS embrace Scripture, we DO mean the Christian Scriptures - that would be the object.

....You are seriously advocating Christians following the Qur'an and Shariah?


No, obviously Luther and Calvin were speaking of CHRISTIAN Scriptures - as noted.






.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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....You are seriously advocating Christians following the Qur'an and Shariah?
Where did ya get that idea from?
Which reminds me of this thread :)

http://www.christianforums.com/t5635831/
Would people leave the U.S. if Sharia Laws were enacted?

Luke 21:20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem[USA] being encompassed by armies[MUSLIMS], then be ye knowing! that nigh Her desolation.
[Zechariah 14:5]
 
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laconicstudent

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