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Sola Scriptura?

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All4Christ

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Why not?



This practice, as you know, is specifically recommended (and, therefore, approved) in Holy Scripture. We can hardly consider it to be wrong, therefore. But if you're laying the groundwork for saying that the deceased (who, yes, are still alive as spirits) are in the same category as our neighbors and therefore are covered by the same Bible verse, no.

Not only is it wrong to pray to those who have passed on, but we neither know if they CAN hear us or that the saint being prayed to actually is in heaven. That's just an assumption we make, and in your church it's done simply by popular agreement of the living members of the church.
Certainly it isn't covering the entire problem many have with asking for the intercession of the saints. However, you asked earlier about why we would ask for saints to pray for us when we can just pray to God (i.e. the saints having more influence). If I misunderstood your intent, please feel free to clarify.

Putting the question aside of whether they can hear us or are given the ability to know our prayers (through God's power), we ask them to pray for us for the same reason I ask my fellow Christians here on earth to pray for me. We also ask them to pray for us knowing that their entire being is devoted to prayer all the time. Remember the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. We also ask them out of love and communion with eachother.

All that said, I understand that it does not remove the concern of whether they can or cannot hear us - or if we should ask for prayers of the reposed. I do believe, however, that it is relevant to why we ask them to pray for us.

(I hope you know that this isn't an argument for you to start believing we should ask for the saint's intercessions :) It is an explanation. I have no intention of trying to do that - and no illusions that it would happen even if I was trying to convince you.)
 
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Albion

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Certainly it isn't covering the entire problem many have with asking for the intercession of the saints. However, you asked earlier about why we would ask for saints to pray for us when we can just pray to God (i.e. the saints having more influence). If I misunderstood your intent, please feel free to clarify.
I see what you are pointing to now. As I said in my reply, though, there's no comparing one's neighbors with those who have passed on in this regard.

Putting the question aside of whether they can hear us or are given the ability to know our prayers (through God's power), we ask them to pray for us for the same reason I ask my fellow Christians here on earth to pray for me.
You ask them to pray for you because the Bible recommends it, I am assuming.

All that said, I understand that it does not remove the concern of whether they can or cannot hear us - or if we should ask for prayers of the reposed. I do believe, however, that it is relevant to why we ask them to pray for us.
Right.

(I hope you know that this isn't an argument for you to start believing we should ask for the saint's intercessions :) It is an explanation. I have no intention of trying to do that - and no illusions that it would happen even if I was trying to convince you.)
 
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All4Christ

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... there's no comparing one's neighbors with those who have passed on in this regard....
Ultimately, it all boils down to a church's / person's opinion on this point. Is an omission in Scripture a cause for it being wrong...or is it just something not directly specified. That seems to be the key to a person's belief on this subject...the relationship of Scripture, Holy Tradition and our beliefs.

All this said, I still direct my requests and prayers to God, and generally just ask for prayers of the saints...typically not specific requests. I still don't fully understand some of the prayers (for a lack of a better word), even 10 years later. I'm most comfortable adding phrases like this "through the prayers of the Holy Theotokos and all the saints, (insert request here to God).
 
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Albion

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Ultimately, it all boils down to a church's / person's opinion on this point.
To be sure.

Is an omission in Scripture a cause for it being wrong
Yes...unless we are to think it is not God's word; and just about every church I know of, yours and mine included, consider the Bible to be revelation.
 
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All4Christ

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Yes...unless we are to think it is not God's word; and just about every church I know of, yours and mine included, consider the Bible to be revelation.

I would rephrase that for EO belief...

Yes, unless we are to think there is additional authoritative revelation outside of Scripture. Certainly if Scripture said not to do it, then I would agree. Omission imo is different than Scripture saying it is wrong, especially when there are related relevant points.

Our doctrine cannot and should nt contradict scripture, absolutely. On that point I think we agree. The second question is are there other authoritative sources, so long as they don't contradict. ...And that is a reflection of our discussion of Sola Scriptura and its effect on our beliefs. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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I know, but it's similar...and both reject Sola Scriptura on the same grounds.

I can't speak for Catholics, but we reject Sola Scriptura on the grounds that we emphatically reject ANY novel doctrine not delivered "once and for all to the Saints" from the time of the Apostles.

It is true that the doctrine of the Trinity underwent some refinement, but where did the Apostles introduce Sola Scriptura, and if so, how was it articulated?

Some articulation we might agree with, if they are what we have always believed. But a novel doctrine or, in this case I would say it has risen to the level of dogma, MUST be rejected.

That is the grounds on which we reject Sola Scriptura. In some of its articulations, not only is it missing, but the Apostolic instruction is actually against it.

I think All4Christ responded to pretty much all I would have said regarding your other questions to me about the intercessions of the Saints, but I would be happy to answer if you like. There are some nuances I would have addressed, but they are minor and I don't think add to the discussion about SS.
 
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Albion

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I can't speak for Catholics, but we reject Sola Scriptura on the grounds that we emphatically reject ANY novel doctrine not delivered "once and for all to the Saints" from the time of the Apostles.

That's why we reject "Holy Tradition."

It is true that the doctrine of the Trinity underwent some refinement, but where did the Apostles introduce Sola Scriptura, and if so, how was it articulated?
All the evidence from the early church is that Scripture was cited by the Fathers, but no mentions of "Holy Tradition." Similarly, the Nicene Creed cites Scripture in support of one of its articles, but makes no mention of Tradition. You'd think that if the Apostles had any conception of this theory, it would show up somewhere.

I think All4Christ responded to pretty much all I would have said regarding your other questions to me about the intercessions of the Saints, but I would be happy to answer if you like. There are some nuances I would have addressed, but they are minor and I don't think add to the discussion about SS.
I believe you're right about this. It's been a good conversation, and some disagreements actually did seem to me to have been eased. However, it doesn't look like there's much more to say on this subject. Not now, anyway.
 
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dzheremi

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This thread appears to be going in multiple directions at once, some of which are less useful than others. The canonization of the NT, for instance, is easily referenced back to HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic's 39th festal letter of 367 AD, as that is the earliest such extant list of the now-standard 27-book canon, and the later lists (such as that received at Rome and Carthage in the following decades) correspond to it. HH St. Athanasius is very uncontroversially a saint in both East and West, so I'd hope that this recognition of a common wellspring would put an end to any arguing over the matter.

Regarding praying to/with/through/[whatever other preposition] saints, it seems that a lot is being made out of what can be, if we are so inclined, very simple. I realize that I am caught out in this particular forum (as in all the forums of this board except for the OO forum, and in life in general) as being Oriental Orthodox, and hence can't (and wouldn't) assume that whatever I offer will be accepted by those of the other traditions, but the way that it has been explained to me in very simple, layman's level terms is that the entire reason we have any veneration of saints in the first place is because of what God Himself has worked in them, and that our concept of intercession grows out of what is more generally recognized in that veneration.

When making this point, I always like to turn to the example of St. Moses the Ethiopian (a.k.a., St. Moses the Black, St. Moses the Strong), as our Coptic synaxarium, which we read aloud at every liturgy, contains beautiful reflections upon his life and martyrdom:

"Beloved Ones, contemplate in the power of repentance, and what it did. It transformed an infidel slave who was a murderer, adulterer and robber into a great Father, teacher, comforter, and priest who wrote rules for the monks, and saint whose name is mentioned on the altar in our prayers."

The saint is the one who is strong in their repentance, that they are transformed by God as we too pray to be. So in that, the point is not "Oh, look at how great St. So-and-So is", but "Look at what God has done in them." It's that simple. A luthier apprentices under a luthier, a baker under a baker, a welder under a welder, etc. So if we want to be as they are -- strong in our repentance, transformed by God -- who better to 'apprentice' under? The saints of old followed this system: St. Athanasius was the disciple of St. Anthony, St. Arsenius of St. John the Short, St. Besa of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, etc. But because these were monastic and much more literal relations (in the sense of these saints living at the same time and in the same geographical space), those of us who today are 'out in the world', so to speak, are greatly enriched by saints from all over with whom we may have a similar relationship. I am personally greatly inspired and comforted by the life and sayings of St. John the Short, for instance, so when I find myself as he was, a bit too contented in the way I am living, I remember his words "Lord, send me enemies, and strength for the fight", and pray them too, and ask that he intercede for me before the Lord.

Could I ask the Lord Himself this same thing, without including St. John? Yes, of course. As I've just described, I already do ask the Lord for this directly, as St. John himself likewise did. But in including St. John, I am pleading for the prayers of one who has already been where I wish to go, and has already fought this same fight and been victorious in it. He is my model in this not because Christ our God is somehow not my model (NB: in the weeks of Lent, the response to the communion hymn/Psalm 150 in the Coptic Orthodox tradition is "Jesus Christ fasted for us, forty days and forty nights"), but because of the practical considerations involved in asking a fellow fallible Christian for his support. I expect that this same concern is at the root of various Protestant practices, such as having 'accountability partners' and such. For the traditional Christian, our partners include the saints.

I suppose it goes back to what I said in my previous post about Christianity being a communal religion. If you really believe that, then it stands to reason that those who have come before us are not out of the community now by virtue of their no longer being here on earth, or else we'd have no reason to hold in such high esteem men like the apostles and their disciples, either. Yet all of Christianity does this, either explicitly or implicitly by virtue of accepting what they have left us (their writings, as canonized in the Holy Bible).

The sort of 'mechanical' details of how this all works out don't interest me as much as the reality that the prayers of the saints avail much. Besides, at least in my own tradition, the Coptic intercessory prayers ("Hiteniyat") are structured in such a way that there is no such artificial division between asking for intercession and asking directly of God, because we do them both at the same time:

Through the intercessions of the Theotokos St. Mary, O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins.

Through the intercessions of the holy archangel Gabriel, the announcer, O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins

Through the intercessions of the blessed elders Joakim and Anna, O Lord...

etc., etc.
 
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~Anastasia~

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That's why we reject "Holy Tradition."


All the evidence from the early church is that Scripture was cited by the Fathers, but no mentions of "Holy Tradition." Similarly, the Nicene Creed cites Scripture in support of one of its articles, but makes no mention of Tradition. You'd think that if the Apostles had any conception of this theory, it would show up somewhere.

It almost seems some definitions are in order.

What do you consider to be Holy Tradition, that you reject?

For us, it INCLUDES the early Church, the Fathers, the Creeds, the Councils that articulated them, the Apostles, AND Holy Scripture.

So I don't really understand what you say, that you reject Holy Tradition, then turn around and cite so much of it?

I would also have to ask your particular articulation of Sola Scriptura. Luther's writings that I found when I searched a few years ago (problem is, I'm not sure if he might have written more than understanding) ... but Luther's understanding that I read is very close to what the EOC does believe.

But in bringing up intercession of the Saints, fir example, and saying that you disallow it even though it is hinted at in Scripture, because it is not clearly articulated, is a different form of SS than I tend to think of. Do you mean to say that you think anything not clearly commanded in Scripture is forbidden? I'm not sure that's what you really mean, but every denomination that has tried to assert that demand runs afoul of it themselves ... there really is no denomination that does NOTHING not clearly articulated in Scripture?

So I'm still not sure exactly of your position. Not trying to be difficult.

I'm a little surprised hearing it from an Anglican, as well. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, which is why I asked for definitions above, but isn't Anglican theology supposed to be based on Scripture, Tradition, and Reason?

Again, not being snide. Just a bit confused.
 
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gordonhooker

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That's why we reject "Holy Tradition."


All the evidence from the early church is that Scripture was cited by the Fathers, but no mentions of "Holy Tradition." Similarly, the Nicene Creed cites Scripture in support of one of its articles, but makes no mention of Tradition. You'd think that if the Apostles had any conception of this theory, it would show up somewhere.


I believe you're right about this. It's been a good conversation, and some disagreements actually did seem to me to have been eased. However, it doesn't look like there's much more to say on this subject. Not now, anyway.

Albion,

When you say "we reject" Holy Tradition who are you talking about? In your profile you say you are an Anglican - we as in me and other Anglicans in the community I belong to don't reject tradition, reason, scripture or experience.

blessings, Gordon
 
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Albion

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Anastasia said:
What do you consider to be Holy Tradition, that you reject?

Wow...haven't we defined or identified this several times already? I refer to the conglomeration of theological speculation, folklore, legend, customs, episcopal decrees given as infallible, etc. that grew up over the centuries leading to the Reformation.

It's said to be a second stream of divine revelation equal in authority to Holy Scripture and to have been believed throughout the church continuously since the beginning and handed down from the Apostles, but that is simply stipulated. Famous examples of doctrines established by means of Holy Tradition but absent from Scripture would be the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary, Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation.

I would also have to ask your particular articulation of Sola Scriptura. Luther's writings that I found when I searched a few years ago (problem is, I'm not sure if he might have written more than understanding) ... but Luther's understanding that I read is very close to what the EOC does believe.
I don't believe so.

But in bringing up intercession of the Saints, fir example, and saying that you disallow it even though it is hinted at in Scripture
Look, it's possible to tease almost any dogma out of Scripture by saying that it's "hinted at" or by pointing to one word or phrase, often taken out of context, and then building an elaborate and specific dogma upon it, or to rationalize (as has been done in a number of these posts) that if A is scripturally correct, then it follows that B and, from that, C must "logically" follow from it. All of that is actually improper; it's extra-Scriptural.

We believe that the Bible is God's revelation and that it is the unequalled standard for determining doctrine.

Do you mean to say that you think anything not clearly commanded in Scripture is forbidden?
Of course not, but neither can it be made official or made into a doctrine that the people are required to believe. We call strictly optional ideas "adiaphora."

I'm not sure that's what you really mean, but every denomination that has tried to assert that demand runs afoul of it themselves ... there really is no denomination that does NOTHING not clearly articulated in Scripture?

Stay with the definition/explanation and I think you'll be all right with this, quite independent of whether or not you are in agreement.

I'm a little surprised hearing it from an Anglican, as well. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, which is why I asked for definitions above, but isn't Anglican theology supposed to be based on Scripture, Tradition, and Reason?
It is. But tradition (not the so-called "Sacred Tradition" or "Holy Tradition" concepts) and reason are simply used to assist in understanding Scripture. It is not the case that these three are equally authoritative.
 
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All4Christ

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Of course not, but neither can it be made official or made into a doctrine that the people are required to believe. We call strictly optional ideas "adiaphora".
...

This is what confuses me on the part of Lutherans and Anglicans. Most things seem to be permitted for adiophora, such as the dormition of the Theotokos, Mary being sinless, etc. Yet, when it comes to asking for the intercession of saints, it no longer can be considered adiophora, but is considered to be wrong, despite scripture not articulating that it is wrong to ask for the intercessions of the saints. As mentioned earlier, it is more omission in Scripture rather than opposition.

Am I correct in my understanding of this?
 
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All4Christ

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The sort of 'mechanical' details of how this all works out don't interest me as much as the reality that the prayers of the saints avail much. Besides, at least in my own tradition, the Coptic intercessory prayers ("Hiteniyat") are structured in such a way that there is no such artificial division between asking for intercession and asking directly of God, because we do them both at the same time:

Through the intercessions of the Theotokos St. Mary, O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins.

Through the intercessions of the holy archangel Gabriel, the announcer, O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins

Through the intercessions of the blessed elders Joakim and Anna, O Lord...

etc., etc.
Beautiful explanation. Personally, that is the primary type of intercessory prayers I use as well.
 
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Albion

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This is what confuses me on the part of Lutherans and Anglicans. Most things seem to be permitted for adiophora, such as the dormition of the Theotokos, Mary being sinless, etc. Yet, when it comes to asking for the intercession of saints, it no longer can be considered adiophora, but is considered to be wrong, despite scripture not articulating that it is wrong to ask for the intercessions of the saints.
Let's see. The Falling asleep of the Virgin in the EO and RC churches is a doctrine, isn't it? It's not accepted by us. So there's no inconsistency there. We do celebrate the anniversary of her death, by the way, but not the legend of her ascending into heaven in bodily form for which there is no evidence at all and nothing in Scripture about it. So no, it cannot be made into a doctrine.

Mary as sinless (are you referring to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception or the idea that she never sinned thereafter?). The Roman Church declared the former by infallible Papal decree, relying upon Tradition. But again, none of that is Scriptural. Not Papal Infallibility and not Mary as Immaculate Conception.

But can it be considered adiaphora? Maybe, although I don't know anyone who says of these beliefs that they are just interesting thoughts and they'd like to think they're true although no one knows.

Now (and I almost forgot to speak to the invocation of the saints part of your post), what of this other teaching? The reason we are not to pray to the dead is because that not only is unauthorized by Scripture but there is also plenty that warns us not to give to anyone else that which belongs only to God--which this sort of homage does appear to do.

When I have said that we don't know if the saints can hear us or other reservations like that, I'm not saying that a good answer will make the practice a valid one. Those are just ideas intended to cause the reasonable person to give the practice a second thought and to explain why those of us who don't do it are convinced that it's not harmless. The practice does infringe upon the worship that we owe to God alone.
 
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PeaceB

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Famous examples of doctrines established by means of Holy Tradition but absent from Scripture would be the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary, Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation.
The most famous example of a man-made tradition is your belief that Scripture is the only authoritative rule of faith. Sola Scriptura is not found in the Bible (either explicitly or implicitly) and is refuted at many places in the Bible. Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men (Martin Luther to be exact).

And your belief in Sola Scriptura, which is not found in scripture, also proves that you go outside of Scripture for your beliefs, just as you assert that non-Protestants go outside of Scripture for our beliefs. We already established that you do this concerning the canon of scripture.

So you are in no position to be throwing stones.

Look, it's possible to tease almost any dogma out of Scripture by saying that it's "hinted at" or by pointing to one word or phrase, often taken out of context, and then building an elaborate and specific dogma upon it, or to rationalize (as has been done in a number of these posts) that if A is scripturally correct, then it follows that B and, from that, C must "logically" follow from it. All of that is actually improper; it's extra-Scriptural.
Yes, it most certainly is possible to do that, and the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself is a prime example of it. Sola Scriptura is found nowhere in Scripture and refuted at many places.

Of course not, but neither can it be made official or made into a doctrine that the people are required to believe. We call strictly optional ideas "adiaphora."
Good. As Sola Scripture is found nowhere in Scripture, it is optional, and we reject it as a false tradition of men.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Wow...haven't we defined or identified this several times already? I refer to the conglomeration of theological speculation, folklore, legend, customs, episcopal decrees given as infallible, etc. that grew up over the centuries leading to the Reformation.

It depends on what you mean by these, whether or not we agree/disagree. Our sources of authority, along with Scripture, are the Creeds, the Councils, those things that are included within the Liturgy.

Infallible is not a word we tend to use broadly in the EOC ...

It's said to be a second stream of divine revelation equal in authority to Holy Scripture and to have been believed throughout the church continuously since the beginning and handed down from the Apostles, but that is simply stipulated.

We would reject the first definition, I think, and accept the second.

Famous examples of doctrines established by means of Holy Tradition but absent from Scripture would be the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary, Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation.

We reject all of these except for the assumption of Mary. And the Assumption of Mary is not really a major point AT ALL. We don't put the Assumption on the liturgical calendar. We do put the dormition on it. It is theologically important to us that THE VIRGIN MARY DIED A PHYSICAL DEATH, as all human people do. And it doesn't appear that you disagree with that point.

I don't believe so.


Look, it's possible to tease almost any dogma out of Scripture by saying that it's "hinted at" or by pointing to one word or phrase, often taken out of context, and then building an elaborate and specific dogma upon it, or to rationalize (as has been done in a number of these posts) that if A is scripturally correct, then it follows that B and, from that, C must "logically" follow from it. All of that is actually improper; it's extra-Scriptural.

We believe that the Bible is God's revelation and that it is the unequalled standard for determining doctrine.


Of course not, but neither can it be made official or made into a doctrine that the people are required to believe. We call strictly optional ideas "adiaphora."



Stay with the definition/explanation and I think you'll be all right with this, quite independent of whether or not you are in agreement.


It is. But tradition (not the so-called "Sacred Tradition" or "Holy Tradition" concepts) and reason are simply used to assist in understanding Scripture. It is not the case that these three are equally authoritative.

Well, quote simply, we would say that there is a body of Truth that has been delivered to the Church. Primary within that, is Holy Scripture, meaning it has highest authority.

What we do not allow is for someone to twist a private interpretation of Scripture to go against the way the Church has always understood it. Though I will say there is a great deal of leeway there - not everything is tightly defined and we have freedom within certain parameters.

Honestly, I don't think we are defining either Holy Tradition or the authority of Scripture in the same way. You insist in making Tradition separate from Scripture, something that CAN oppose it, and thus potentially subjugate it in terms of authority. We do not view Scripture as being apart from Holy Tradition, but rather as being the most important part of Holy Tradition. It is really impossible for us to conceive of a competition between the two for authority. But if there WERE any competition, Scripture would be the highest authority.

What we do not believe is that Scripture contains everything we know. Again, St. Paul refers to holding the traditions/teachings handed down by word and by epistle, which would explicitly refute the kind of SS that demands anything not in Scripture be rejected. But as you say, that is not your position.

Really, intercessions of the Saints is a good example, since you have made aggrandizement of them your reason, saying that God has said He will not share certain things with any creature.

It would need a better understanding of how we view these things, which @dzheremi has discussed a bit, I think. It is because we honor what God does through them - if they intercede and a miracle results, we still attribute the miracle to God and praise Him for it. We NEVER worship the Saints - to do so would be great heresy. But at the same time, while God has said that He would not share His glory with another, what did Christ mean when He specifically said in His prayer (John 17) "I have given them the glory which you have given me?" It sounds like a contradiction, but we ARE glorified in Christ. It is always by the will and grace of God though, and to His glory.

Again, I'm not trying to convince of any practice. But your objection relies on a particular interpretation of particular Scriptures.

Even while the Apostles were present, they recognized that people's consciences and understanding would not be the same, in explaining how we should not judge or stumble one another. I guess my point is that they realized there would be confusion. Today if we have ONLY the Scriptures, and not the Apostles, and eject the historic understanding of the Church of those Scriptures, then no doubt we should expect even more confusion.

ETA: too long a break between my reading of your posts and my reply. I see you mentioned homage, worship of the Saints implied in asking their intercession. That is exactly why I don't use the term "pray to the Saints" because people will use a modern interpretation of "pray" and assume worship. We do NOT worship the Saints. No more than I would be worshipping my neighbor in my old English example "I pray you, neighbor, lend me some eggs".
 
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gordonhooker

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This is what confuses me on the part of Lutherans and Anglicans. Most things seem to be permitted for adiophora, such as the dormition of the Theotokos, Mary being sinless, etc. Yet, when it comes to asking for the intercession of saints, it no longer can be considered adiophora, but is considered to be wrong, despite scripture not articulating that it is wrong to ask for the intercessions of the saints. As mentioned earlier, it is more omission in Scripture rather than opposition.

Am I correct in my understanding of this?

Not all Anglicans have a problem with asking the Saints to intercede for us, it is only those on the other side of Anglicanism.

[Staff edit].
 
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dzheremi

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Hmm. From the limited study I have been able to do of my own communion's interactions with the Anglicans, I had assumed that our relation with them was more positive. They are one of the more traditional churches, are they not? Or have I been misinformed? If they are not, then I am at a loss what to make of the wonderful work they have done on behalf of the Oriental churches in order to increase their visibility and the sympathies for them in the English-speaking world, including helping to publish the earliest Coptic Orthodox catechism in the English language, the 1892 (!) catechism of Abouna Filotheos which was translated by one Rev. Nasser Odeh, priest of the Anglican Church and superintendent of the Anglican mission to the Jews of Cairo.

Not sure why they would do that (or author the many other books from around the same period that covered favorably not only the Copts but also the Syriacs of the Middle East and India) if there was really such a problem with what we do. :scratch:
 
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All4Christ

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Hmm. From the limited study I have been able to do of my own communion's interactions with the Anglicans, I had assumed that our relation with them was more positive. They are one of the more traditional churches, are they not? Or have I been misinformed? If they are not, then I am at a loss what to make of the wonderful work they have done on behalf of the Oriental churches in order to increase their visibility and the sympathies for them in the English-speaking world, including helping to publish the earliest Coptic Orthodox catechism in the English language, the 1892 (!) catechism of Abouna Filotheos which was translated by one Rev. Nasser Odeh, priest of the Anglican Church and superintendent of the Anglican mission to the Jews of Cairo.

Not sure why they would do that (or author the many other books from around the same period that covered favorably not only the Copts but also the Syriacs of the Middle East and India) if there was really such a problem with what we do. :scratch:
When I was in Galway, the local historic Anglican Church allowed the Romanian and Russian Orthodox Churches to build an iconostasis on one wing of the sanctuary...beautiful service there. They didn't discuss intercession of saints, but they were very friendly and open to giving the Orthodox churches a place to worship. It was one if my favorite places that I visited while I was there. Certainly all experiences I've seen with Orthodox and Anglican churches was very positive and helpful.
 
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gordonhooker

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Hmm. From the limited study I have been able to do of my own communion's interactions with the Anglicans, I had assumed that our relation with them was more positive. They are one of the more traditional churches, are they not? Or have I been misinformed? If they are not, then I am at a loss what to make of the wonderful work they have done on behalf of the Oriental churches in order to increase their visibility and the sympathies for them in the English-speaking world, including helping to publish the earliest Coptic Orthodox catechism in the English language, the 1892 (!) catechism of Abouna Filotheos which was translated by one Rev. Nasser Odeh, priest of the Anglican Church and superintendent of the Anglican mission to the Jews of Cairo.

Not sure why they would do that (or author the many other books from around the same period that covered favorably not only the Copts but also the Syriacs of the Middle East and India) if there was really such a problem with what we do. :scratch:

As far as I know the Anglican church welcomes all people with open arms, although there are some Calvinists and ultra Evangelicals within the communion in some dioceses but thank God most of the Australian Parishes are not like that. In our parish recently we had a prayer vigil for the souls who were killed and injured in the bombings in Egypt. So please don't take what Albion says as being typical of Anglican thought. Then again I am very much Anglo Catholic and a professed Franciscan tertiary I quite happily finish off my daily Community Obedience office with:

May our blessed Lady pray for us.
May Saint Francis pray for us.
May Saint Clare pray for us.
May all the saints of the Third Order pray for us.
May the holy angels watch over us and befriend us.
May our Lord Jesus give us his blessing and his peace. Amen
 
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