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Constantine the Sinner

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The King James version is based on the Textus Receptus. Since that time there have been earlier manuscripts discovered that, by their very nature, are closer to the original documents than those produced centuries later. Additionally, there has been great progress in deciphering the source languages based on extrabiblical documents and archaeological finds. The closer one gets to the source documents and the more that is known about the culture in which they were produced the better.
This isn't a matter of different Greek texts, they're the same for this verse. It's a matter of one being dishonest translation. The Greek simply doesn't say the word "prophet", it just says prophecy and private (ἰδίας) interpretation, and it doesn't say anything about the fulfilment of prophecy until the next verse. These are fabrications added to the English to make it line up with the translator's theology.

If you are interested in understanding what Scripture meant to people in ancient times, consider looking to the Church Fathers.
 
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Winken

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The post-Nicene fathers carried out the mission of defending the gospel against all kinds of heresies, so more and more the post-Nicene fathers grew interested in methods of defending the gospel and less interested in transmitting the gospel in a true and pure form. Thus, they began to fall away from the orthodoxy which was the hallmark of the apostolic fathers. This was the age of the theologian and endless discussion on arcane topics such as “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.”

The early church fathers are an example to us of what it means to follow Christ and defend the truth. None of the early church fathers were perfect, just as none of us are perfect. Some of the early church fathers held beliefs that most Christians today consider to be incorrect. What eventually developed into Roman Catholic theology had its roots in the writings of the post-Nicene fathers. While we can gain knowledge and insight by studying the early church fathers, ultimately our faith must be in the Word of God, not in the writings of early Christian leaders. Only God’s Word is the infallible guide for faith and practice.

Source: GotQuestions.org

:holy:
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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the post-Nicene fathers grew interested in methods of defending the gospel and less interested in transmitting the gospel in a true and pure form.
Could you explain to me what the difference is? In Orthodoxy, defending the Gospel means protecting it from being distorted.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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While we can gain knowledge and insight by studying the early church fathers, ultimately our faith must be in the Word of God, not in the writings of early Christian leaders. Only God’s Word is the infallible guide for faith and practice.
Also, could you explain how you could study Scripture without coming up with an interpretation of it? And how current, Protestant interpretations are preferable to ancient interpretations made by those who devote their lives to poverty, prayer, fasting and study?
 
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civilwarbuff

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Also, could you explain how you could study Scripture without coming up with an interpretation of it? And how current, Protestant interpretations are preferable to ancient interpretations made by those who devote their lives to poverty, prayer, fasting and study?
Does the Holy Spirit have a seat at your table? Poverty, prayer, fasting and study are insufficient without the Holy Spirit leading you......
 
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civilwarbuff

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No, living a holy life was on my list, since it, coupled with orthodox faith, is the best indicator of being in the Spirit.
Here is your list:
Also, could you explain how you could study Scripture without coming up with an interpretation of it? And how current, Protestant interpretations are preferable to ancient interpretations made by those who devote their lives to poverty, prayer, fasting and study?
Don't see holy life on there anywhere.....or orthodox faith for that matter......
 
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sculleywr

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The books that are counted as Scripture have been added to over time, so it is indeed something that has changed and that we can change. However, it is not in the sense that someone has the authority to pick and choose what books God has inspired on whim, but in the sense of officially recognizing the authority and truthfulness with which the books are written with. In any case, the principle behind Sola Scriptura does not necessitate following any particular canon. In Acts 17:11, when the Bereans didn't have any of the books in the NT canon when they followed this principle by checking everything that Paul said against Scripture to see if it was true. So again, we might not agree on how Scripture should be interpreted or even on what constitutes as Scripture, and one or neither of us are correct, but we should still nevertheless agree that whatever the canon that God has inspired is, it is the standard by which we should measure everything else against to see if it is true, and if you agree to that, then you should agree to Sola Scriptura.
The problem is that books were removed by Jews originally in the 5th or 6th century (not the so-called school of Jamnea, but a group called the Masoretes, for whom the text which it comprises is named). These Jews were ones who asked the question of how they could remove references to Jesus from their Scriptures because the Church was using them liberally. Athanasius, for instance, made multiple references to the Wisdom of Solomon and Tobit, referring to both as Scripture.

The fact is that Sola Scriptura is impractical not because of the necessity of a canon, but because the very existence of a Canon puts something or someone in authority over the Scripture, because the person, group, or tradition is now saying what Scripture is, or is not. If you cannot know what the Scripture is, then you cannot practice any Scripture-based theology, because you're basing it on something you are uncertain about. If Scripture is not a known entity, then it is not a solid foundation. For the Orthodox, this is not a stumbling block, but for the SS believer, it cannot help but be a stumbling block, because if Scripture is unsure, if any doubt whatsoever can be leveled at the authority of a book of Scripture, then one cannot base theology on it. And since the authority of Scripture is based not on Scripture, but on those who call it Scripture, the authority is, by definition, subservient to those who define it. The Orthodox Church is honest in this statement, for we say that since the Orthodox Church determined its own Canon, that Scripture is subservient to the Church which defined and compiled it. It is not a statement of doctrine so much as it is an acknowledgement of reality. The Church defined the Canon, through the Council of Carthage which ratified the Canon of the New Testament and later councils that ratified the use of the Septuagint as the standard for our Church. Therefore, since the Church is the definer of the Scriptures, the Church is of a high enough authority to be the final grounds to which we look for the meaning thereof.

But if, as you say, the Scripture's components cannot be known with certainty, how then can it be, as the song says, "how firm a foundation"? The Orthodox Church can know its foundation, but the SS believer, from what you have said, cannot be completely certain of his.
 
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sculleywr

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The Bible itself defends Sola Scriptura. There are 8 points in Scripture that defends it.

Here is my...

Sola Sciptura Part 1 (Post) here at CF.

And my...

Sola Scriptura Part 2 (Post) here at CF.


....
The Bible defends a doctrine that was completely unpracticeable at the time it was written. Like seriously, less than 5% of the Church could read (that is a very liberal estimate considering the fact that the Church was more attractive to the poor and impoverished, who had a much lower literacy rate than the average of the empire), and many of the Churches across the empire counted the existence of a portion of Scripture from which to read in a service as such an auspicious occassion that they would have parades from the place the Scriptures were kept to the place where the services were held where they sang joyous psalms and hymns! There weren't enough Scriptures to go around in many of the places to which the Faith was preached. India, Gaul, Britain, the peninsula where Sweden and Norway are now were all evangelized without the benefit of a copy of Scripture written in their local language, because either Scripture wasn't translated into the local language (such as in India) or else they didn't have a written language (such as with Gaul, in modern day Lyons).

So God was basically telling the illiterate masses that Christianity was not a faith for them, because Scripture is of no authority if you don't use it. Since they were unable to use it, they didn't use it.
 
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civilwarbuff

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I neglected to mention poverty, prayer, fasting and study?
No, you neglected to mention the Holy Spirit (which is necessary to understanding according to scripture) or the orthodox faith (which scripture does not mention) as being part of a "holy life"......
 
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Albion

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None of this has anything to do with whether it's 1) the word of God or 2) Man's customs, opinions, superstitions, and legends that provides the proper guide to Christian doctrine.
I neglected to mention poverty, prayer, fasting and study?
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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No, you neglected to mention the Holy Spirit (which is necessary to understanding according to scripture) or the orthodox faith (which scripture does not mention) as being part of a "holy life"......
That's because Protestants often think being really loud and supporting Israel shows you are of the Spirit.
 
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civilwarbuff

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That's because Protestants often think being really loud and supporting Israel shows you are of the Spirit.
I have no idea what that has to do with anything I wrote.....could you explain or is it just a strawman?
 
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sculleywr

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You were never in the arena with your belief that scripture is not the highest authority, and you don't even defend what you think to be higher.


Despite the various versions and translations, it is agreed by Christians that the Bible is God's word. You propose ridiculous arguments to avoid the point of my posts, that Catholics believe in incontrovertible truths outside of scripture. I am still waiting for defense of such an idea and the more difficult task of determining which "traditions" of many should be taken to be dogma. Surely not all traditions are dogma, ie; do Catholics still require the tradition of women covering their hair?
I do not need to defend what is a de facto reality. There is a tradition in charge of Scripture. For instance, in regards to your last question, if we were strictly to use the plain sense of Scripture with no use of any tradition, then let us see what the Scripture says of covering hair:

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
So while you're calling it a tradition, it is in Scripture. For the Orthodox, there are three types of Tradition:

1. The Apostolic Tradition, which includes Scripture and the proper understanding of Scripture. This Tradition was preserved, in its entirety, in the Church, through the succession of the Presbyters in the Church (Irenaeus, Adversus Heraesus). The Tradition is both the Scripture itself, as well as what Deacon Michael Hyatt quite succinctly called the "ultimate exegesis of the Scripture".
2. Traditions of man, which include things such as the styles of music and art, methods of sermon delivering, practices outside of the liturgical worship of the Church which, though manmade, do not cause harm to the Apostolic Tradition. This can be things like the American tradition of having Coffee Hour after Liturgy, Sunday School before, and Bible/Faith Studies throughout the week.
3. Traditions against the Faith, which are traditions which might have started as manmade practices, but were raised up to a point where they became a harm to the Faith itself. Such practices could be the over-legalization of the Pharisees, which is the reason why the Orthodox Church recently declared the Old Calendarists, specifically those who said if you did not use the Julian Calendar that you were sinning, to be a formal heresy. While there are still disagreements over which calendar to use in the liturgical practice, to remain in Communion in the Orthodox Church, one must not declare those who use the other calendar to be heretics, or else you have committed an act of heresy, declaring the manmade calendar to be a divine dogma. Pretty much any practice can become this, and there are even some manmade traditions mentioned in Scripture, such as the tradition of head-covering. As long as one does not raise these manmade traditions above or to the level of Apostolic Tradition, then one is not sinning as the Pharisees did. To reference an example of this kind of sin more familiar in the West, one could look to the KJV Onlyists, who have raised the manmade tradition of a single translation of Scripture to a level equal to the declarations of the Apostles themselves.

The fact is that, unlike Protestants, RCC and Orthodox are honest with themselves that there has to be something above Scripture, because Scripture was not bound together in a single volume after John finished his writing. The Apostles and Prophets did not provide us with a Table of Contents. Man made that themselves long after the Scriptures were finished. And that Table of Contents has a higher authority than all of Scripture combined, because if it is changed, then Scripture itself is fundamentally altered. Changing the Canon of Scripture is akin to changing the Address Registry in a CPU. If you wipe an address from that register, then the information stored in that address will never effect the running of the computer. It will never be accessed or used. It will be as if that address never existed. And removing that registry will likely disable whatever program depended on the registry address, if it were an important portion of that program. In this case, the programs are your dogmas. Changing the Scripture changes the dogmas that Scripture teaches.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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None of this has anything to do with whether it's 1) the word of God or 2) Man's customs, opinions, superstitions, and legends that provides the proper guide to Christian doctrine.
You can either understand the Word of God as very holy and dedicated men did, or according to newer interpretations by men who don't have anywhere near that dedication.
 
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