Sola Scriptura

[Job8]

Not to be a wet blanket, but if Scripture was perfect, sufficient, and complete when Psalm 119 was written - the entire New Testament would be superfluous by that definition ...

Not necessarily. Psalm 119 lays down the foundation, and as mentioned to Timothy, the OT was able to make him wise unto salvation. It has been claimed above that when Paul wrote 2 Timothy, the New Testament had not been written. That is incorrect. This epistle was written at the end of Paul's life (66 AD). Other than a few books, the bulk of the New Testament had been completed, and since Paul was writing prophetically, he anticipated a complete Bible.

It is completely illogical to use such an argument from the OT to defend not only INCLUDING the NT as "Scripture" but also EXCLUDING any additional information as necessary at the same time. You can't have your cake and eat it too - especially not before it is even baked.

Psalm 119 was written prophetically. Those are the words of the Holy Spirit and designed to cover both Testaments. The significance of this psalm is that it repeats over and over again the sufficiency of Scripture. Indeed, when you read the writings of the apostolic Fathers, they are very edifying and simply reiterating what is already in Scripture.

 

[Korah]

The rubber meets the road:
2 Timothy 3:15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (NIV) (Harold Lindsell approved)
This actual text defeats practically everything the anti-Traditionalists are claiming. "from infancy" it says, presumably BEFORE any NT texts were completed. Clearly it affirms ONLY the Old Testament, none of the New Testament, and which OT, the Tanach, the Septuagint, or just the Torah? Note that NOWHERE does it suggest that ONLY the Scriptures are in view, and only that they are USEFUL for salvation and the works of salvation.
Or are you claiming that 2 Timothy was NOT written by Paul, but much later by someone else? We don't typically argue for Higher Criticism here in Traditional Theology.
And why IS this thread in Traditional Theology? Please move it elsewhere, it just causes a firestorm here.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not necessarily. Psalm 119 lays down the foundation, and as mentioned to Timothy, the OT was able to make him wise unto salvation. It has been claimed above that when Paul wrote 2 Timothy, the New Testament had not been written. That is incorrect. This epistle was written at the end of Paul's life (66 AD). Other than a few books, the bulk of the New Testament had been completed, and since Paul was writing prophetically, he anticipated a complete Bible.


Psalm 119 was written prophetically. Those are the words of the Holy Spirit and designed to cover both Testaments. The significance of this psalm is that it repeats over and over again the sufficiency of Scripture. Indeed, when you read the writings of the apostolic Fathers, they are very edifying and simply reiterating what is already in Scripture.

One should place oneself in history ...

The Gospels and letters were in partial circulation, but the Church was being established by the Apostles and their direct teaching, and then the faithfulness to what they established. The epistles were (often corrective) letters to that end.

"The Bible" as we know it today, which much beloved, revered, and honored, as well as authoritative, was not the foundation of the Church, which the Church itself is called (in Scripture) "the pillar and foundation of the Truth".



To claim that "it means something else" because it was "written prophetically" doesn't hold water. How then can one say a "Newer Testament" may not be written, and added to the canon, on the basis of Ps. 119? ANYthing can become "the word of God" if everything that refers to Scripture, written IN Scripture, is considered "prophetic" in this way. It was the Church as a Body who originally decided what was Scripture, and what wasn't.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think some folks may not be aware of where they are posting, or what the forum guidelines are. Though a respectful discussion of the topic could be fruitful. I'm just not sure actual discussion will happen ... but I am always hopeful.

 

[BABerean2]

One should place oneself in history ...

The Gospels and letters were in partial circulation, but the Church was being established by the Apostles and their direct teaching, and then the faithfulness to what they established. The epistles were (often corrective) letters to that end.

"The Bible" as we know it today, which much beloved, revered, and honored, as well as authoritative, was not the foundation of the Church, which the Church itself is called (in Scripture) "the pillar and foundation of the Truth".



To claim that "it means something else" because it was "written prophetically" doesn't hold water. How then can one say a "Newer Testament" may not be written, and added to the canon, on the basis of Ps. 119? ANYthing can become "the word of God" if everything that refers to Scripture, written IN Scripture, is considered "prophetic" in this way. It was the Church as a Body who originally decided what was Scripture, and what wasn't.

Do we use tradition or scripture(Sola Scriptura) as our guide to the truth of our faith?

Are we prepared to let others of the faith challenge our understanding and defend what we believe to be the truth, based on scripture alone?

If we find a conflict between what our tradition teaches and what is found in God's Word, are we prepared to make corrections?

All of these questions have a direct correlation to the present health of the Body.

Occasionally, the patient must be willing to be poked and prodded to find out if the Body is healthy or if there is a potential problem with the Body that needs attention.

He is the Great Physician, who can keep the Body working at peak efficiency, if we are willing to submit to his loving care.

.

 

[OzSpen]

This is an individual choice, who you're going to spend time listening to. There are many scholars you need not weed through to find consistent truth in. Augustine was in egregious error as to, for example, Replacement Theology and Amillennialism. The former error contributes to some heinous evil, such as has been used to justify anti-Semitism and elevates the work of man, by his "church" institution (which is not the church of Christ that is the spiritual body and bride of Christ of scripture), foolishness such as Roman Catholicism tasked with bringing in the kingdom rule. Foolishness the Bible does not support, in clear terms, this or the notion God has revoked His eternal promises to Israel and won't fulfill a mountain of literal prophecies still to come, concerning very Israel.

Augustine displayed some blinding ignorance of a wide body of scripture, proved himself a mangler of truth by his private interpretations and a most unreliable source of truth. On the other hand, I don't as much blame Augustine as those modern Christians, who have the likes of Israel reformed as prophesied, before our eyes, that still adhere to Replacement Theology or Amillennialism. I'd rather not spend more than five minutes, studying the work of any man who had such a weak grip on so much spiritually discerned scripture. Everybody's right about something, but this doesn't make them a right person, most certainly right in only some things an unfit Bible teacher. I find it a complete waste of time, to try and glean whatever tidbits any ignorant theologian may have gotten right, find no profit in going through mountains of garbage and stuffing that in my brain, as if not to mention what a waste of time. If I want fiction, I'll read a novel.

To each his own, but, as for me, no thanks. You can have your encyclopedia of religious philosophy.

I found this to be demeaning to Augustine's theology without being so brave as to debate specifics with us.

So would you prefer the theology of J N Darby, C I Scofield and the eschatology promoted by Dallas Theological Seminary faculty or the Master's Seminary?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Do we use tradition or scripture(Sola Scriptura) as our guide to the truth of our faith?

How did the words of Jesus get to be recorded so that you are able to promote the doctrine of sola scriptura?

 

[BABerean2]

How did the words of Jesus get to be recorded so that you are able to promote the doctrine of sola scriptura?

I had addressed this to Anastasia, because she seemed to be leaning on tradition.

I am a chapter and verse proponent who holds Sola Scriptura above anything else.

I am willing to examine my understanding as well of that of all others through the process of "Conflict Resolution". Any interpretation that produces a conflict in another passage cannot be correct.

I expect other members of the Body, such as yourself, to question everything I write or say through the text of the New Testament writers.

I am also a proponent of the Greek Textus Receptus, which was quoted by Cyprian about 250 AD. To the best of my knowledge, it would be the source to answer your question.

Lately, I have focused on Galatians chapter 4 where the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and tells the Galatian church to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.

We should all do the same.
However, some ignore the words of Paul and cannot let go of it, especially the Sabbath.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

We are the children of the New Blood Covenant found in Matthew 26:28 and Hebrews 8:6-13, 12:24, 13:20.

It was Promised to Abraham 430 years before the Sinai covenant, based on Galatians chapter 3.

Galatians 3:16-29

 

[Erose]

This would be a good place to start.
It is the best explanation I have ever seen on the original doctrine of the Church.
I learned some things the first time I saw it.

It is something every Christian on the planet needs to see.

It eliminates a great deal of the confusion seen in the modern Church.

It does? That is a huuuuugggggggeeeeee stretch.

 

[Erose]

This is an individual choice, who you're going to spend time listening to. There are many scholars you need not weed through to find consistent truth in. Augustine was in egregious error as to, for example, Replacement Theology and Amillennialism. The former error contributes to some heinous evil, such as has been used to justify anti-Semitism and elevates the work of man, by his "church" institution (which is not the church of Christ that is the spiritual body and bride of Christ of scripture), foolishness such as Roman Catholicism tasked with bringing in the kingdom rule. Foolishness the Bible does not support, in clear terms, this or the notion God has revoked His eternal promises to Israel and won't fulfill a mountain of literal prophecies still to come, concerning very Israel.

Augustine displayed some blinding ignorance of a wide body of scripture, proved himself a mangler of truth by his private interpretations and a most unreliable source of truth. On the other hand, I don't as much blame Augustine as those modern Christians, who have the likes of Israel reformed as prophesied, before our eyes, that still adhere to Replacement Theology or Amillennialism. I'd rather not spend more than five minutes, studying the work of any man who had such a weak grip on so much spiritually discerned scripture. Everybody's right about something, but this doesn't make them a right person, most certainly right in only some things an unfit Bible teacher. I find it a complete waste of time, to try and glean whatever tidbits any ignorant theologian may have gotten right, find no profit in going through mountains of garbage and stuffing that in my brain, as if not to mention what a waste of time. If I want fiction, I'll read a novel.

To each his own, but, as for me, no thanks. You can have your encyclopedia of religious philosophy.

I take it you have never read Augustine

 

[BABerean2]

It does? That is a huuuuugggggggeeeeee stretch.

Can you back that up with specific scriptures that were presented? Sola Scriptura...

.

 

[Job8]

However, it speaks of God's word, His ordinances, His precepts, His laws. Nowhere does that imply Sola Scriptura. Nowhere does that psalm say that His word is limited to written scripture. If you see it differently, feel free to explain.

Actually Psalm 119 is one of the clearest and most forceful passages in Scripture to establish that Scripture alone is supreme, and indeed forever settled in Heaven. In this Psalm, David, by Divine inspiration, presents us with eight categories of Scripture: (1) God's commandments, (2) God's judgments, (3) God's law, (4) God's precepts, (5) God's statutes, (6) Go9d's testimonies, (7) God's ways, and (8) God's Word. And in verse 99 & 100 this Psalm tells us that Scripture supersedes "the ancients" and David's "teachers" (which we would call the traditionalists). So this is how Psalm 119 lays it out:

A. WHERE ARE GOD’S COMMANDMENTS? IN THE BIBLE

6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.

73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.

131 I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.

143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.

151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

B. WHERE ARE GOD’S JUDGMENTS? IN THE BIBLE

7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.

20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.

30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.

43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

52 I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted myself.

62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.

75 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

84 How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?

102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.

106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.

108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.

121 I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors. 122 Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.

137 Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments.

149 Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O LORD, quicken me according to thy judgment.

156 Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.

164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.

175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

C. WHERE IS THE LAW OF THE LORD? IN THE BIBLE

1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.

34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

51 The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.

53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

55 I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.

70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

85 The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.

92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

150 They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law.

153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.

163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

D. WHERE ARE GOD’S PRECEPTS? IN THE BIBLE

4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.

78 Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.

87 They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.

93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

94 I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

134 Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.

141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.

159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

E. WHERE ARE GOD’S STATUTES? IN THE BIBLE

5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

64 The earth, O LORD, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.

68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

80 Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.

83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes.

112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.

117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.

118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.

124 Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.

135 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes.

145 I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O LORD: I will keep thy statutes.

155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.

F. WHERE ARE GOD’S TESTIMONIES? IN THE BIBLE

2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.

36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.

59 I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.

79 Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.

88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.

99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.

119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.

129 Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.

138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.

144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.

146 I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.

152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.

167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.

G. WHERE ARE GOD’S WAYS? IN THE BIBLE

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

H. WHERE IS GOD’S WORD? IN THE BIBLE

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed there to according to thy word.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.

25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

41 Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

49 Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.

50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

57 Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.

58 I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

65 Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.

67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?

89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. 91They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.

101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

132 Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name. 133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.

140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.

148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

169 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

 

[All4Christ]

Actually Psalm 119 is one of the clearest and most forceful passages in Scripture to establish that Scripture alone is supreme, and indeed forever settled in Heaven. In this Psalm, David, by Divine inspiration, presents us with eight categories of Scripture: (1) God's commandments, (2) God's judgments, (3) God's law, (4) God's precepts, (5) God's statutes, (6) Go9d's testimonies, (7) God's ways, and (8) God's Word. And in verse 99 & 100 this Psalm tells us that Scripture supersedes "the ancients" and David's "teachers" (which we would call the traditionalists). So this is how Psalm 119 lays it out:

A. WHERE ARE GOD’S COMMANDMENTS? IN THE BIBLE

6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.

73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.

131 I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.

143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.

151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

B. WHERE ARE GOD’S JUDGMENTS? IN THE BIBLE

7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.

20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.

30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.

43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

52 I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted myself.

62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.

75 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

84 How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?

102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.

106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.

108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.

121 I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors. 122 Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.

137 Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments.

149 Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O LORD, quicken me according to thy judgment.

156 Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.

164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.

175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

C. WHERE IS THE LAW OF THE LORD? IN THE BIBLE

1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.

34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

51 The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.

53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

55 I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.

70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

85 The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.

92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

150 They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law.

153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.

163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

D. WHERE ARE GOD’S PRECEPTS? IN THE BIBLE

4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.

15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.

78 Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.

87 They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.

93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

94 I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

134 Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.

141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.

159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

E. WHERE ARE GOD’S STATUTES? IN THE BIBLE

5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

64 The earth, O LORD, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.

68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

80 Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.

83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes.

112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.

117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.

118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.

124 Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.

135 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes.

145 I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O LORD: I will keep thy statutes.

155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.

F. WHERE ARE GOD’S TESTIMONIES? IN THE BIBLE

2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.

36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.

59 I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.

79 Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.

88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.

99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.

119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.

129 Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.

138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.

144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.

146 I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.

152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.

167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.

G. WHERE ARE GOD’S WAYS? IN THE BIBLE

3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

H. WHERE IS GOD’S WORD? IN THE BIBLE

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed there to according to thy word.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.

25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

41 Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

49 Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.

50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

57 Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.

58 I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

65 Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.

67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?

89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. 91They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.

101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

132 Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name. 133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.

140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.

148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

169 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

You could argue that about the Old Testament, but the New Testament wasn't even written when Psalm 119 was composed.

 

[Job8]

You could argue that about the Old Testament, but the New Testament wasn't even written when Psalm 119 was composed.

Well that's the beauty of Divine inspiration. It covers prophetically what comes in the future. Thus the Old Testament speaks of the New Heavens and the New Earth as clearly as does Revelation. So your contention is completely invalid, unless you believe that God did not anticipate His own New Testament.

 

[All4Christ]

Well that's the beauty of Divine inspiration. It covers prophetically what comes in the future. Thus the Old Testament speaks of the New Heavens and the New Earth as clearly as does Revelation. So your contention is completely invalid, unless you believe that God did not anticipate His own New Testament.

I contend that scripture was at times written in context of history. Also, I said you could argue that - not that I agree with your conclusion. Again - I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

 

[BABerean2]

So your contention is completely invalid, unless you believe that God did not anticipate His own New Testament.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven. (CJB)

.

 

[Korah]

Not only does this thread not belong in Traditional Theology, as shown by the unremitting opposition by Traditionalists, but it is now merely going in circles. Maybe moving it is not the only solution....

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do we use tradition or scripture(Sola Scriptura) as our guide to the truth of our faith?

(My apologies, I'm not going to bother to correct color/bold on my words - it's very tedious on this tablet.)


Who is "we"?

Since as you said later, you addressed this question to me, "we" (the Orthodox Church) use Tradition AND Scripture (which are inextricably intertwined in ways I do not have time at the moment to explain and are not an either/or proposition, nor were they ever until the limited use of certain groups of the past couple of centuries. Even Luther's "sola scriptura" didn't work that way).

You are attempting to ask a question and make an argument that doesn't make sense in the context of the Church.

You are also posting in Traditional Theology, which by it's definition assumes Tradition as having some degree of input.

(The funny thing is that even those that decry "Tradition" have their own "traditions" regarding interpretation - otherwise you could not converse and understand what is meant by certain terms.)

Are we prepared to let others of the faith challenge our understanding and defend what we believe to be the truth, based on scripture alone?

Discuss, yes. Argue, no, this is not the appropriate forum. Let that answer your question since I'm not sure what you mean.

By Scripture alone? Some make that their business and do quite a good job of it, since their main concern is helping the new style of sola-scriptura Protestants understand the faith.

I don't have time to re-invent the wheel, but if you're truly interested, I can refer you to some podcast series. Steve Robinson is particularly good at it. Matthew Gallatin did some great work on particular topics I have heard.

If we find a conflict between what our tradition teaches and what is found in God's Word, are we prepared to make corrections?

That does not happen for the Orthodox. The same councils (and faithful Body at large) that gave us Scripture gave us the rest of Tradition. If anything conflicted, it would not, be definition, become Tradition.

All of these questions have a direct correlation to the present health of the Body.

Occasionally, the patient must be willing to be poked and prodded to find out if the Body is healthy or if there is a potential problem with the Body that needs attention.

He is the Great Physician, who can keep the Body working at peak efficiency, if we are willing to submit to his loving care.

The Great Physician is active and involved with His Body.

Within our Church, there is the utmost concern for the health of the Body as a whole and each member of it and each part of every member. I wouldn't expect you to know that, but it goes much deeper than you can probably imagine. Glory to God!

 

[BABerean2]

(My apologies, I'm not going to bother to correct color/bold on my words - it's very tedious on this tablet.)


Who is "we"?

Since as you said later, you addressed this question to me, "we" (the Orthodox Church) use Tradition AND Scripture (which are inextricably intertwined in ways I do not have time at the moment to explain and are not an either/or proposition, nor were they ever until the limited use of certain groups of the past couple of centuries. Even Luther's "sola scriptura" didn't work that way).

You are attempting to ask a question and make an argument that doesn't make sense in the context of the Church.

You are also posting in Traditional Theology, which by it's definition assumes Tradition as having some degree of input.

(The funny thing is that even those that decry "Tradition" have their own "traditions" regarding interpretation - otherwise you could not converse and understand what is meant by certain terms.)



Discuss, yes. Argue, no, this is not the appropriate forum. Let that answer your question since I'm not sure what you mean.

By Scripture alone? Some make that their business and do quite a good job of it, since their main concern is helping the new style of sola-scriptura Protestants understand the faith.

I don't have time to re-invent the wheel, but if you're truly interested, I can refer you to some podcast series. Steve Robinson is particularly good at it. Matthew Gallatin did some great work on particular topics I have heard.



That does not happen for the Orthodox. The same councils that gave us Scripture gave us the rest of Tradition. If anything conflicted, it would not, be definition, become Tradition.



The Great Physician is active and involved with His Body.

Within our Church, there is the utmost concern for the health of the Body as a whole and each member of it and each part of every member. I wouldn't expect you to know that, but it goes much deeper than you can probably imagine. Glory to God!

If your tradition has cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage and embraced the New Covenant as implored by the Apostle Paul, then it is correct. If instead it cannot let go of the covenant of bondage, then there is a conflict.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Here the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage.)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Paul tells the Galatians to cast out the Sinai covenant.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are the children of the New Covenant, instead of the Sinai covenant.)

1Co_11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
(The Greek word for testament and covenant are the same.)

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament(covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


If you have never heard a sermon on the passages above and do not understand the differences between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant, then there is a conflict between what is being taught and Sola Scriptura.

The same is true for over 90 % of the modern Church, which has not cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.

.

 

[prodromos]

If your tradition has cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage and embraced the New Covenant as implored by the Apostle Paul, then it is correct. If instead it cannot let go of the covenant of bondage, then there is a conflict.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Here the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage.)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Paul tells the Galatians to cast out the Sinai covenant.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(We are the children of the New Covenant, instead of the Sinai covenant.)

1Co_11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
(The Greek word for testament and covenant are the same.)

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament(covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


If you have never heard a sermon on the passages above and do not understand the differences between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant, then there is a conflict between what is being taught and Sola Scriptura.

The same is true for over 90 % of the modern Church, which has not cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.

.

I'm not entirely sure how that was a response to the previous post. Do you mind breaking it down for me?