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Sola Scriptura

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Montalban

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Jesus quotes from Psalms. Psalms is in all bibles. But not all Psalms are.

Having off-the-cuff rules like: "We're all in agreement with Psalms", or "Jesus quotes from Psalms, but not from another book" are thus insufficient rules to account for the collection of books people adhere to as the canon.

Another example is the so-called Additions to Daniel

Daniel is 'accepted' by all the churches, but not all accept all of Daniel!

If you're going to have a rule "I will adhere only to scripture" than the question of 'why' becomes important, as does the question of 'what do you call scripture'
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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It has everything to do with this thread An OT book not quoted in the NT means NOTHING!

EXACTLY! It doesn't mean that ergo it's Scripture. Just because none in Scripture mentioned any or quoted from any of these DEUTERO books does NOT mean that ergo it must be regarded as Scripture - I disagree with you on that.

Yes, we've all come to realize that you (and a couple of others here) are deeply, gravely concerned about the reality that none agree with your denomination on what is and is not Scripture. The OOC, EOC, RCC and LDS are all in that boat. I understand that. I appreciate your concern there. I fail to see how none in Scripture EVER mentioning or quoting those books proves your denomination right, but I won't pursue that since it's irrelevant to the issue here. I've invite you to start a thread "Why None Agrees With My Denomination on What Is and Is Not Scripture?" and promised to try to comfort you there, but obviously you prefer to hijack this one.

The Rule of Scripture doesn't TEACH what is and is not Scripture anymore than the Rule of Law TEACHES what is and is not the law in every jurisdiction on this date. I KNOW it gravely concerns you that your denomination is "out of synch" as it were, but AGAIN, it's not the grave, horrible situation you seem to think. I've read Psalm 151. It's not long... It REALLY doesn't impact the issue of the norming of disputed dogmas among us today all that much. Really, it doesn't. If you want to call it Scripture, I plan to have no debate on that (I never do - I let EOC and RCC use the Scriptures each denomination uniquely embraces - changes nothing, helps them none). And if you don't want to use those 4 OT books never quoted in the NT (you claim - I didn't know that), that's fine with me, too. It doesn't change the practice, it only changes the content of the norm. And in these cases, not that matters.




You keep stating 'rules' without reasons
I've never once even mentioned the word "rules" in this thread. Not even once. What do you mean I "keep stating?"





You adhere to sola scriptura as a rule - for an unknown reason.
No.

The PRACTICE of embracing Scripture as the Rule in the norming of disputed dogmas among us means that Scripture is the rule, not the practice.

I have stated the reasons MANY times.




You reject certain books because they're not quoted in the NT, yet other OT books aren't either.


No. You accept them because they aren't.

What I've said is that the issue is not this issue. Take your grave personal sadness over none agreeing with your denomination on what is and is not Scripture to a thread on that topic. You KNOW that Sola Scriptura doesn't teach what is and is not Scripture (it can't teach ANYTHING).






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Montalban

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EXACTLY! It doesn't mean that ergo it's Scripture.
It was YOUR rule! And StandingUps! You two were arguing against these books because they weren't 'quoted' in the NT

Just because none in Scripture mentioned any or quoted from any of these DEUTERO books does NOT mean that ergo it must be regarded as Scripture - I disagree with you on that.
Your post is showing a confused argument. It's not my rule. It was yours. You're now agreeing with my rebuttal of your rule :confused:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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It was YOUR rule! And StandingUps! You two were arguing against these books because they weren't 'quoted' in the NT


No. You are insisting that they MUST be regarded as Scripture because none in the NT ever mentioned them or quoted from them. I DISAGREED WITH YOU. I don't thing that has any relevance to anything - CERTAINLY not to this thread.




It's not my rule

I know. The EOC rejects Scripture as the rule in norming. It's Scripture or any other's.

And yes, we all know, yes - we really do - your denomination agrees with none on what is and is not Scripture. You have Psalm 151 for example. Okay. Include it if you like. It changes nothing. And your denomination is STILL against using Scripture as the Rule. So what relevance does your sadness have to this thread?





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CaliforniaJosiah

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The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura")




The Definition:


The Rule of Scripture is the practice of embracing Scripture as the rule ("straight edge") - canon ("measuring stick") - norma normans (the norm that norms) as it is called in epistemology, as we examine and evaluate the positions (especially disputed dogmas) among us.


Here is the official, historic definition:
"The Scriptures are and should remain the sole rule in the norming of all doctrine among us" (Lutheran Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Rule and Norm, 9). "We pledge ourselves to the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments as the pure and clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true norm according to which all teachers and teachings are to be judged" (ditto, 3).




What it IS
:

1. An embrace of accountability for the doctrines among us (especially those in dispute).


2. An embrace of norming (the process of examining positions for truth, correctness, validity).


3. An embrace of Scripture as the best, most sound rule/canon/norma normans for this process.



What it is NOT
:

1. A teaching that all revelation or truth is found in Scripture. It's not a teaching at all, it is the PRACTICE of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of doctrines. Scripture itself says that "the heavens declare the glory of God" but our visual reception of the stars is not used as the rule/norma normans for the evaluation of doctrines among us in the practice of Sola Scriptura.


2. A teaching that Scripture is "finished." It's not a teaching at all. While probably all that practice Sola Scripture agree with all others that God seems to have inscribed His last book around 100 AD and doens't seem to be adding any more books, the Rule of Scripture was just as "valid" in 1400 BC when Scripture consisted of just two stone tablets as it is today - only the corpus - the size - of Scripture is larger, that has no impact on the practice of embracing it as the rule/canon/norma normans in our evaluation of doctrines among us. The Rule of Scripture embraces the Scripture that is. It does not teach what is and is not Scripture (it's a practice, it doesn't teach anything - nor can it).


3. Hermeneutics. The Rule of Scripture has to do with WHAT is the most sound rule/canon/norma normans for the evaluation of the doctrines among us, it is not a hermeneutical principle. Obviously that Scripture needs to be interpreted, but that's a different subject or another day and thread. The Rule of Scripture has to do with norming, not interpreting.


4. Arbitration. Obviously, some process of determining whether the doctrine under review "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the canon). This is also beyond the scope here, the Rule of Scripture is the embrace of Scripture AS that canon, it does not address the issue of HOW it is best determined if a position "measures up" to that canon.





An illustration:



Let's say Dave and Fred are neighbors. They decided that they will hire a contractor to build a brick wall on their property line, six feet tall. Dave and Fred hire Bob the Builder. He agrees to build the wall on the property line - six feet tall.

Bob is now done. He claims the wall is six feet tall. Does it matter? If it doesn't, if his work and claim are entirely MOOT - then, nope - truth doesn't matter. And can just ignore what he said and did. OR we can consider that of the nearly 7 billion people in the world, there is ONE who is incapable of being wrong about measurements - and that ONE is Bob the Builder, claims ONE - Bob the Builder. IF Bob the Builder alone is right about what he alone claims about he alone here, it's pretty much a waste of time to wonder if what he said about this is true or not. But, IF truth matters and IF Bob the Builder will permit accountability (perhaps because he is confident the wall IS six feet tall), then we have the issue of accountability: Is the wall what we desire and what Bob the Builder claims it is?


If so, we just embraced norming. Norming is the process of determining correctness of the positions among us. For example, Bob claiming the wall is 6 feet tall. Is that correct? Addressing that question is norming.



Norming typically involves a norm: WHAT will serve as the rule (straight edge) or canon (measuring stick) - WHAT will be embraced by all parties involved in the normative process that is the reliable standard, the plumbline. Perhaps in the case of Fred and Dave, they embrace a standard Sears Measuring Tape. They both have one, Bob does too. Dave, Fred and Bob consider their carpenter's Sears Measuring Tape as reliable for this purpose, it's OBJECTIVE (all 3 men can read the numbers), it's UNALTERABLE (none of the 3 can change what the tape says) and it's OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND all 3 parties. Using that could be called "The Rule of the Measuring Tape." The Sears Measuring Tape would be the "canon" (the word means 'measuring stick') for this normative process.




Why Scripture?



In epistemology (regardless of discipline), the most sound norma normans is usually regarded as the most objective, most knowable by all and alterable by none, the most universally embraced by all parties as reliable for this purpose. My degree is in physics. Our norma normans is math and repeatable, objective, laborative evidence. Me saying, "what I think is the norm for what I think" will be instantly disregarded as evidential since it's both moot and circular. I would need to evidence and substantiate my view with a norm fully OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND me - something objective and knowable. This is what The Handbook of the Catholic Faith proclaims (page136), "The Bible is the very words of God and no greater assurance of credence can be given. The Bible was inspired by God. Exactly what does that mean? It means that God Himself is the Author of the Bible. God inspired the penmen to write as He wished.... the authority of the Bible flows directly from the Author of the Bible who is God; it is authoritative because the Author is." Those that accept the Rule of Scripture tend to agree. It's embrace as the most sound Rule flows from our common embrace of Scripture as the inscriptured words of God for God is the ultimate authority.

The embrace of Scripture as the written words of God is among the most historic, ecumenical, universal embraces in all of Christianity. We see this as reliable, dependable, authoritative - it as a very, very, broad and deep embrace as such - typically among all parties involved in the evaluation. (See the illustration above).


It is knowable by all and alterable by none. We can all see the very words of Romans 3:25 for example, they are black letters on a white page - knowable! And they are unalterable. I can't change what is on the page in Romans 3:25, nor can any other; what is is.


It is regarded as authoritative and reliable. It is knowable by all and alterable by none. Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming ( the RCC and LDS, for example ) have no better alternative (something more inspired, more inerrant, more ecumenically/historically embraced by all parties, more objectively knowable, more unalterable), they have no alternative that is clearly more sound for this purpose among us.


To simply embrace the teachings of self (sometimes denominational "tradition" or "confession") as the rule/canon is simply self looking in the mirror at self - self almost always reveals self. In communist Cuba, Castro agrees with Castro - it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Castro is correct. We need a Rule outside, beyond, above self.




Why do some so passionately reject it?



Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming tend to do so not because they reject Scripture or have an alternative that is MORE inerrant, MORE the inscripturated words of God, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable, MORE unalterable, MORE ecumenically embraced as authoriative. Rather the rejection tends to be because each rejects accountability (and thus norming and any norm in such) in the sole, singular, exclusive, particular, unique case of self alone. From The Handbook of the Catholic Faith (page 151), "When the Catholic is asked for the substantiation for his belief, the correct answer is: From the teaching authority. This authority consists of the bishops of The Catholic Church in connection with the Catholic Pope in Rome. The faithful are thus freed from the typically Protestant question of 'is it true' and instead rests in quiet confidence that whatever the Catholic Church teaches is the teaching of Jesus Himself since Jesus said, 'whoever hears you hears me'." The Catholic Church itself says in the Catechism of itself (#87): Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms." IF self declares that self is unaccountable and that self is exempt from the issue of truthfulness, then the entire issue of norming (and the embraced norma normans in such) becomes irrelevant (for self). The issue has been changed from truth to power (claimed by self for self).





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Standing Up

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And yes, we all know, yes - we really do - your denomination agrees with none on what is and is not Scripture. You have Psalm 151 for example. Okay. Include it if you like. It changes nothing. And your denomination is STILL against using Scripture as the Rule. So what relevance does your sadness have to this thread?

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So, let's agree that the EO bible is the bible of SS. Now what? We agree to use it as the norm/rule/line by which a belief is judged. Now what?
 
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Maybe you could help me on this one; the Gospels do not describe Jesus laughing. In the OT the only laughing of God I can recall is an expression of scorn. Are there other passages I'm forgetting, where laughter is an expression of humor ?
I did not claim that the scriptures describe Jesus laughing. God laughs. What he laughs at is mute. He laughs. Jesus is the Human Image of God. We also read in the scripture that laughter is a medicine in the proverbs. We are to shout joyfully to the Lord we read. We also read God delights in the prayers of His people. Do a deep word search on the word (delight) used in the scripture. It is uplifting and draws me closer to My God. Do you not believe that God has a sense of humor?
 
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sculleywr

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Why is it (sola scriptura) to be used a norm?

Are people just arbitrarily picking a canon and saying "I'll use this"?

More than that, there are 25000 sola scriptura traditions. Which one is the correct one? they disagree on everything except the claim thatScripture is the only source of Truth.
 
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Fireinfolding

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I did not claim that the scriptures describe Jesus laughing. God laughs. What he laughs at is mute. He laughs. Jesus is the Human Image of God. We also read in the scripture that laughter is a medicine in the proverbs. We are to shout joyfully to the Lord we read. We also read God delights in the prayers of His people. Do a deep word search on the word (delight) used in the scripture. It is uplifting and draws me closer to My God. Do you not believe that God has a sense of humor?

This is sorta cute lol

Isaac = "he laughs"

Gen 17:19 God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name he laughs^_^

...and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

A time for everything

Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh

At the appointed time in respects to Isaac = "he laughs"

You can run it a couple of ways I thought it was kinda of cute

 
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Montalban

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More than that, there are 25000 sola scriptura traditions. Which one is the correct one? they disagree on everything except the claim thatScripture is the only source of Truth.

The divisions within Protestantism are outstanding.

Some have argued that there's fewer than that; fewer denominations. However as single, individual Protestants don't identify with any denomination they are in effect a denomination of their own.

They also claim in one sense to 'all' be true - because they're a part of an invisible church of all believers.
 
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sculleywr

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ummm. Yeah. I'll repeat the question, why the random color changing? If there is a reason, it's understandable, otherwise, it's annoying and distracting
 
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ViaCrucis

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More than that, there are 25000 sola scriptura traditions. Which one is the correct one? they disagree on everything except the claim thatScripture is the only source of Truth.

The historic position is not that Scripture is the only source of truth. Rather that in matters of Christian faith and practice Scripture is the sole final rule. In other words, the word of Scripture trumps everything else.

Of course there's more than Scripture. There is the great and vast Tradition of the Church, there's the good use of reason, there's the exploration of the created world (etc).

But all of this, says the historic position of Sola Scriptura, ought be measured against the word of Scripture. Does my reason contradict God's word? Then God's word trumps my fallible human reason.

Those who say they only use Scripture are neither being biblical nor honest with themselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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steve_bakr

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ViaCrucis said:
The historic position is not that Scripture is the only source of truth. Rather that in matters of Christian faith and practice Scripture is the sole final rule. In other words, the word of Scripture trumps everything else.

Of course there's more than Scripture. There is the great and vast Tradition of the Church, there's the good use of reason, there's the exploration of the created world (etc).

But all of this, says the historic position of Sola Scriptura, ought be measured against the word of Scripture. Does my reason contradict God's word? Then God's word trumps my fallible human reason.

Those who say they only use Scripture are neither being biblical nor honest with themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

The problem with using Scripture as the only Ruler is that you get into the problem of differing interpretations of Scripture, hence schism after schism.

There's a comedian who does a thing about a little town that started with one church. There was a disagreement in the church so one group formed another church. Each of those churches had another disagreement and formed two more churches. This process continued until the town was filled with churches, each with a congregation of two or three people.
 
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sculleywr

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The historic position is not that Scripture is the only source of truth. Rather that in matters of Christian faith and practice Scripture is the sole final rule. In other words, the word of Scripture trumps everything else.

Of course there's more than Scripture. There is the great and vast Tradition of the Church, there's the good use of reason, there's the exploration of the created world (etc).

But all of this, says the historic position of Sola Scriptura, ought be measured against the word of Scripture. Does my reason contradict God's word? Then God's word trumps my fallible human reason.

Those who say they only use Scripture are neither being biblical nor honest with themselves.

-CryptoLutheran
So, how do we use scripture to identify what is scripture? If we say it's based on when other books refer to the specific books, then why are letters of Paul missing and why are some Old Testament books never quoted and Protestants removing books that Christ and the apostles quoted from?

Then again, how do we prove the scripturehood of the latest book, being Revelation? If it's not scripture, then any book or author John refers to might not be scripture, and then any books they refer to might not be scripture.

Never is the Scripture said to be THE guidebook of the Church. They are the center of Tradition, but they are still Tradition (II Thessalonians 2:15). The reason we know what is scripture is because of the Canons of the Church, which are Tradition. Protestants just pick and choose scripture buffet style. The Scripture was changed by Luther, who wanted to disclude James because he couldn't make it work with his doctrinal beliefs.
 
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