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Sola Scriptura
- Thread starter Abrahamist
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WHY do people do this?
Why do people interpret Scripture to justify a practice that their denomination includes.
One of the qualifications of a Bishop is to have children and to run their house well. To claim that someone DOES NOT HAVE TO BE MARRIED automatically means if they have kids and they are not married that that child was produced out of fornication and I'm pretty sure that fornication is a sin and for that person to "run God's house" and cannot even "runs theirs well" is ridiculous.
Maybe we seem to erase this part of the qualification
"for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the house of God?"
Not every man meet those qualifications. Not everyone would be a bishop and the role of a bishop is not so high that the person is so much better than anyone else. It's a servants position that God has placed, for these man are Shepherding God's flock and God have made qualifications so that they will be so.
If a man choose not to marry, good for him, it's not a sin if that's his choice--Matthew 19, but that automatically disqualifies him to become a Bishop. That doesn't make him less than a Christian or less than anything but the role of a bishop is such that God provided qualifications for it.
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I'm still in awe that you seriously think any of us "Protestants" believe that Jesus is confined in the Scriptures.
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Montalban
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I'm still in awe that you can then say scriptures are all you need!
You're having several arguments at once. In effect it's going like this:
Scripture is all that I need
No, Scripture and Jesus is all I need
No, Scripture is all that I need
No, I'm not excluding Jesus
As noted it completely undermines the notion of 'complete'.
That's just one time. The other is in reference to the NT which was not finalised at the time Paul commends Timothy to look at scripture.
And that's not including the fact that the OT Paul is commending to Timothy is not the one you use as the OT of Protestant bibles has less books.
That's three massive problems that have still not been resolved.
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WHY do people do this?
Why do people interpret Scripture to justify a practice that their denomination includes.
Maybe because it does. You do the same to justify your beliefs but you won't allow us the same courtesy.
One of the qualifications of a Bishop is to have children and to run their house well. To claim that someone DOES NOT HAVE TO BE MARRIED automatically means if they have kids and they are not married that that child was produced out of fornication and I'm pretty sure that fornication is a sin and for that person to "run God's house" and cannot even "runs theirs well" is ridiculous.
What a load of codswallop. Are you saying that a Bishop must be married whether he likes it or not.
Maybe we seem to erase this part of the qualification
"for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the house of God?"
Not every man meet those qualifications. Not everyone would be a bishop and the role of a bishop is not so high that the person is so much better than anyone else. It's a servants position that God has placed, for these man are Shepherding God's flock and God have made qualifications so that they will be so.
If a man choose not to marry, good for him, it's not a sin if that's his choice--Matthew 19, but that automatically disqualifies him to become a Bishop. That doesn't make him less than a Christian or less than anything but the role of a bishop is such that God provided qualifications for it.
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think any Bishop Catholic or otherwise would agree that they cannot be a Bishop simply because they are not married or do not have children.
.
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steve_bakr
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Also, according to Paul, he is more concerned with the world and his wife than of the spiritual things
NKJV) 1 Corinthians 7:33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world -- how he may please [his] wife.
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steve_bakr
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daydreamergurl15 said:
The living Tradition is the oral teaching of the Apostles, and this Tradition goes alongside Holy Scripture.
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The other points for Priests being unmarried are:
1. Priests mimic Christ the High Priest. Christ was not married. He was celibate.
2. The Church teaches that the family should always be a primary focus for parents. Priests with families have divided attention. The Priests focus should be on Christ, on his flock and their spiritual needs.
Not everyone agrees with this Teaching, some Catholics included. It is a difficult and hard one to understand and agree with in this modern world. That doesn't change the fact that it is Doctrine and must be abided by.
This all boils down to authority and whose Teachings you are going to succumb to which is a personal, emotional and spiritual choice.
Some Christians believe that the Scriptures have always taught Doctrine. Catholics believe Christ and the Apostles taught Doctrine orally FIRST. Jesus never wrote anything down. The Apostles wrote down their memoirs after a while, certainly not the days or months after Christs Ressurrection.
How and what did they preach in those months? We say they taught orally and they preached about Christ and what they had seen, heard and experienced. They did not have Scriptures to pass out as the majority of their audience was illiterate. They heard Confessions, they shared the Eucharist (bread&wine), they Baptised people. This is called Holy Tradition or Divine Tradition. It is Divine Tradition because Jesus established it. Later on the Apostles teachings and memories of Christ was written down.
1. Priests mimic Christ the High Priest. Christ was not married. He was celibate.
2. The Church teaches that the family should always be a primary focus for parents. Priests with families have divided attention. The Priests focus should be on Christ, on his flock and their spiritual needs.
Not everyone agrees with this Teaching, some Catholics included. It is a difficult and hard one to understand and agree with in this modern world. That doesn't change the fact that it is Doctrine and must be abided by.
This all boils down to authority and whose Teachings you are going to succumb to which is a personal, emotional and spiritual choice.
Some Christians believe that the Scriptures have always taught Doctrine. Catholics believe Christ and the Apostles taught Doctrine orally FIRST. Jesus never wrote anything down. The Apostles wrote down their memoirs after a while, certainly not the days or months after Christs Ressurrection.
How and what did they preach in those months? We say they taught orally and they preached about Christ and what they had seen, heard and experienced. They did not have Scriptures to pass out as the majority of their audience was illiterate. They heard Confessions, they shared the Eucharist (bread&wine), they Baptised people. This is called Holy Tradition or Divine Tradition. It is Divine Tradition because Jesus established it. Later on the Apostles teachings and memories of Christ was written down.
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Montalban
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Where you're on shakier ground is that the Catholic church allows married clergy... Maronite and other 'eastern Rite Catholics can have them.
I do not know what happens to Anglican priests (who are married) and who convert to Catholicism - I know that the RCC won't order them to divorce... I do not know if they then have to cease being sexual within their marriage
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Anglican priests who are married and convert to CC remain priests however there are certain conditions imposed on his duties as a priest.
We also have Priests who were laity, married and then received their 'calling'. The same conditions are imposed on them.
The promise of celibacy is waived as a favor to those married clergy, given their particular circumstances and their desire to unite with the Catholic Church. However, the Holy Father has repeatedly affirmed the discipline of celibacy on Roman Catholic clergy of the Latin Rite. (Outside the United States, the Eastern Rites do not require the promise of celibacy except for bishops.)
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What do you mean, should the "Bishop" marry whether he likes it or not?
He wouldn't be a bishop if not "husband of one wife", so that's a non-issue. Not married--not a bishop.
As for me justifying something that has been handled down as a tradition in light of Scripture, please provide evidence and I'll change it accordingly so that it will fit what Scripture have said.
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Except the Scripture doesn't say "IF a bishop is married"
It says
"IF a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then MUST be
-blameless,
-the husband of one wife,
-temperate,
-sober-minded,
-of good behavior,
-hospitable,
-able to teach;
-not given to wine,
-not violent,
-not greedy for money,
-but gentle,
-not quarrelsome,
-not covetous;
-one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care o the church of God?)
-not a novice, less being puffed up with pride he falls into the same condemnation as the devil.
-Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, less he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
-blameless,
-the husband of one wife,
-temperate,
-sober-minded,
-of good behavior,
-hospitable,
-able to teach;
-not given to wine,
-not violent,
-not greedy for money,
-but gentle,
-not quarrelsome,
-not covetous;
-one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care o the church of God?)
-not a novice, less being puffed up with pride he falls into the same condemnation as the devil.
-Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, less he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Do you want to know the difference between my interpretation and yours?
You make the claim that the person is a bishop first and then some of the qualifications can apply. For example when you said "IF a bishop is married he must not be married to more than one woman", you inferred that one can be a bishop but they do not need to meet all the qualifications. My interpretation says that if one does not meet the qualifications--and those qualifications are a must--they should not be a bishop. The position of a bishop is NOT given to the man and then they meet the qualifications, the position of a bishop is something to be desired and then if they meet the qualifications they should be bishops.
I'm getting the feeling that someone is going to say that "must" only applies to the qualification of "blameless" but I implore you to read it again because Titus 1:5-9 re-illiterate many of those same qualifications.
If this helps, I'll quote Titus 1:7-9
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
A man must be these things if he wants to be a Bishop.
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