PaladinValer said:
You are displaying a gross misunderstanding of the doctrine of sola scriptura.
If you need to know how explicitly Scripture describes the doctrine of the Trinity, just consult Augustine.
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Sola Scriptura
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You are displaying a gross misunderstanding of the doctrine of sola scriptura.
If you need to know how explicitly Scripture describes the doctrine of the Trinity, just consult Augustine.
The Prokeimenon!
like unto bees about a honeycomb
Hehe. We must consult an outside source to understand an all-sufficient book. cute.
Moses
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MosestheBlack said:
No. I find to be quite clear. However, Augustine goes in depth to explain just how explicit Scripture is on the matter. I suggest you save the smart remarks till after you read it. Then, you'll actually see my point.
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PaladinValer
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racer said:
I understand it all too well.
St. Auguistine clearly said that the Church is to be consulted in terms of what the Bible says too. You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not a fan of montanism.
In addition, St. Augustine would have told you that it wasn't Scripture but Holy Tradition alone which was used to declare the dogma of the Blessed Trinity. Why? Scripture wasn't canonized until after the First Ecumenical Council! If you want further proof, read St. Athanasius' stuff or do some investigation about him.
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Funny, how Protestants always try to go to a church father (Catholic) source to prove their answers to sola fide, sola scriptura.
If you read any of St Augustine's writings, he advidly support tradition and scripture. That is why he is one of the RCC's greatest saints.....
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PaladinValer said:
Well, just by the comments you've made here, it's painfully obvious you don't. Believe what you will, but you're definitely wrong--AND I'm not one to out-and-out make a statement that a person is wrong. But, in this instance you are.
PaladinValer said:
St. Augustine clearly said many things. You and I can go at it all day long quoting him to further our stances. What you fail to realize is in the end--you lose.
PaladinValer said:
No. I don't have to forgive a blatant insult (because you have no other way to score points), but it's the Christian thing to do, so I do forgive you.
PaladinValer said:
Really? You can quote him saying this? Or you just dare to presume what he would tell me?
PaladinValer said:
Why is really irrelevant to your outrageous assumption.
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Jay2004 said:
Where has this been done here?
Jay2004 said:
Really? Show me where he speaks of Scripture and tradition as equal authorities. I'd like to see it.
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Augustines Confessions, Book XIII
Chapter XV.Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.
16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. And Thou knowest, O Lord, Thou knowest, how Thou with skins didst clothe men5 when by sin they became mortal. Whence as a skin hast Thou stretched out the firmament of Thy Book;6 that is to say, Thy harmonious words, which by the ministry of mortals Thou hast spread over us. For by their very death is that solid firmament of authority in Thy discourses set forth by them more sublimely extended above all things that are under it, the which, while they were living here, was not so eminently extended.7 Thou hadst not as yet spread abroad the heaven like a skin; Thou hadst not as yet noised everywhere the report of their deaths.
17. Let us look, O Lord, "upon the heavens, the work of Thy fingers;"8 clear from our eyes that mist with which Thou hast covered them. There is that testimony of Thine which giveth wisdom unto the little ones.9 Perfect, O my God, Thy praise out of the mouth of babes and sucklings.10 Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such "pure"13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.
196
18. Other "waters" there be "above" this "firmament," I believe immortal, and removed from earthly corruption. Let them praise Thy Name,those super-celestial people, Thine angels, who have no need to look up at this firmament, or by reading to attain the knowledge of Thy Word,let them praise Thee. For they always behold Thy face,14 and therein read without any syllables in time what Thy eternal will willeth. They read, they choose, they love.15 They are always reading; and that which they read never passeth away. For, by choosing and by loving, they read the very unchangeableness of Thy counsel. Their book is not closed, nor is the scroll folded up,16 because Thou Thyself art this to them, yea, and art so eternally; because Thou hast appointed them above this firmament, which Thou hast made firm over the weakness of the lower people, where they might look up and learn Thy mercy, announcing in time Thee who hast made times. "For Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens, and Thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds."17 The clouds pass away, but the heaven remaineth. The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away.18 Because the scroll shall be rolled together,19 and the grass over which it was spread shall with its goodliness pass away; but Thy Word remaineth for ever,20 which now appeareth unto us in the dark image of the clouds, and through the glass of the heavens, not as it is;21 because we also, although we be the well-beloved of Thy Son, yet it hath not yet appeared what we shall be.22 He looketh through the lattice23 of our flesh, and He is fair-speaking, and hath inflamed us, and we run after His odours.24 But "when He shall appear, then shall we be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."25 As He is, O Lord, shall we see Him, although the time be not yet.
Chapter XV.Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.
16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. And Thou knowest, O Lord, Thou knowest, how Thou with skins didst clothe men5 when by sin they became mortal. Whence as a skin hast Thou stretched out the firmament of Thy Book;6 that is to say, Thy harmonious words, which by the ministry of mortals Thou hast spread over us. For by their very death is that solid firmament of authority in Thy discourses set forth by them more sublimely extended above all things that are under it, the which, while they were living here, was not so eminently extended.7 Thou hadst not as yet spread abroad the heaven like a skin; Thou hadst not as yet noised everywhere the report of their deaths.
17. Let us look, O Lord, "upon the heavens, the work of Thy fingers;"8 clear from our eyes that mist with which Thou hast covered them. There is that testimony of Thine which giveth wisdom unto the little ones.9 Perfect, O my God, Thy praise out of the mouth of babes and sucklings.10 Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such "pure"13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.
196
18. Other "waters" there be "above" this "firmament," I believe immortal, and removed from earthly corruption. Let them praise Thy Name,those super-celestial people, Thine angels, who have no need to look up at this firmament, or by reading to attain the knowledge of Thy Word,let them praise Thee. For they always behold Thy face,14 and therein read without any syllables in time what Thy eternal will willeth. They read, they choose, they love.15 They are always reading; and that which they read never passeth away. For, by choosing and by loving, they read the very unchangeableness of Thy counsel. Their book is not closed, nor is the scroll folded up,16 because Thou Thyself art this to them, yea, and art so eternally; because Thou hast appointed them above this firmament, which Thou hast made firm over the weakness of the lower people, where they might look up and learn Thy mercy, announcing in time Thee who hast made times. "For Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens, and Thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds."17 The clouds pass away, but the heaven remaineth. The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away.18 Because the scroll shall be rolled together,19 and the grass over which it was spread shall with its goodliness pass away; but Thy Word remaineth for ever,20 which now appeareth unto us in the dark image of the clouds, and through the glass of the heavens, not as it is;21 because we also, although we be the well-beloved of Thy Son, yet it hath not yet appeared what we shall be.22 He looketh through the lattice23 of our flesh, and He is fair-speaking, and hath inflamed us, and we run after His odours.24 But "when He shall appear, then shall we be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."25 As He is, O Lord, shall we see Him, although the time be not yet.
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Augustine
On Christian Doctrine, Book II, Chapters 4, and 5
Chapter 4Origin of Writing
But because words pass away as soon as they strike upon the air, and last no longer than their sound, men have by means of letters formed signs of words. Thus the sounds of the voice are made visible to the eye, not of course as sounds, but by means of certain signs. It has been found impossible, however, to make those signs common to all nations owing to the sin of discord among men, which springs from every man trying to snatch the chief place for himself. And that celebrated tower which was built to reach to heaven was an indication of this arrogance of spirit; and the ungodly men concerned in it justly earned the punishment of having not their minds only, but their tongues besides, thrown into confusion and discordance.
Chapter 5Scripture Translated into Various Languages
And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation. And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.
On Christian Doctrine, Book II, Chapters 4, and 5
Chapter 4Origin of Writing
But because words pass away as soon as they strike upon the air, and last no longer than their sound, men have by means of letters formed signs of words. Thus the sounds of the voice are made visible to the eye, not of course as sounds, but by means of certain signs. It has been found impossible, however, to make those signs common to all nations owing to the sin of discord among men, which springs from every man trying to snatch the chief place for himself. And that celebrated tower which was built to reach to heaven was an indication of this arrogance of spirit; and the ungodly men concerned in it justly earned the punishment of having not their minds only, but their tongues besides, thrown into confusion and discordance.
Chapter 5Scripture Translated into Various Languages
And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation. And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.
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PaladinValer
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PaladinValer said:
Uh . . . yeah. I'm so familiar with Augustine's writings, I know just where to look to find quotes which support my arguments.
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Augustine, On Holy Trinity
Book I
Chapter 6.That the Son is Very God, of the Same Substance with the Father. Not Only the Father, But the Trinity, is Affirmed to Be Immortal. All Things are Not from the Father Alone, But Also from the Son. That the Holy Spirit is Very God, Equal with the Father and the Son.
9. They who have said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, or not very God, or not with the Father the One and only God, or not truly immortal because changeable, are proved wrong by the most plain and unanimous voice of divine testimonies; as, for instance, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Book I
Chapter 6.That the Son is Very God, of the Same Substance with the Father. Not Only the Father, But the Trinity, is Affirmed to Be Immortal. All Things are Not from the Father Alone, But Also from the Son. That the Holy Spirit is Very God, Equal with the Father and the Son.
9. They who have said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, or not very God, or not with the Father the One and only God, or not truly immortal because changeable, are proved wrong by the most plain and unanimous voice of divine testimonies; as, for instance, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
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If you are, you would know that St. Augustine had over 1000 works and writings.
Many of them were on Sacred Tradition and how scripture should be interpretted along with tradition.
You must also know that Paul says to keep to your traditions...
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MosestheBlack said:
What isn't cute is your understanding of Sola Scriptura or your meaningless criticism of it.
~Matt
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Jay2004 said:
Your answer doesn't make sense. How does what you wrote interact with what I wrote?
~Matt
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Jay2004 said:
In some regard, yes, but Sola Scriptura is concerned with where the word of God is contained and present today. I'm still having trouble seeing how this is related to what was previously written.
~Matt
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Albion
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Jay2004 said:
Yes, there were some.
But holding services in catacombs, gathering on the first day, painting coffins, and so many other practices that characterize early Christian practice cannot be called "Sacred Tradition" because they don't establish doctrine. The Early Church used scripture and that was long before there was any canonization process.
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Albion
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Jay2004 said:
That's right, but it is clear that he means the faith of Christ, not Purgatory, Indulgences, Reliquaries, Limbo Transubstantiation or any of the other additions to the faith coming long after Christ and which are claimed under the title of "Sacred Tradition."
Again, traditions are just traditions, i.e. customary, long held beliefs and practices. "Sacred Tradition" is a non-Biblical theory about establishing doctrinal truth through the consensus of the believers on any subject.
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