The Liturgist

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A member in another thread asked me an interesting question, which I have posted here to avoid derailing the thread and also to not give the misleading appearance of criticizing anyone participating in that thread, for nothing in this reply was written in response to the comments or beliefs of anyone in that thread, which is a positive, polite, friendly and engaging discussion over the merits of Once Saved, Always Saved. So, without further ado, here we go:

How do you define nuda scriptura that differs from sola scriptura?

Sola scriptura, if we look at the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Belgic Comfession of Faith, the Lutheran formulas of Concord, or in the case of Anglicanism, the Book of Common Prayer, which although primarily a liturgical manual and a prayer book, is similar to Orthodox and Assyrian liturgical manuals and prayer books in that it from it the Anglican faith is chiefly derived, although it does also have a catechism and the 39 Articles, relies on an exegesis which Luther, Cranmer, Calvin, Wesley and other “Magisterial Protestants” have derived from their interpretation of the doctrines of the Early Church, what Calvinists called the consensus patrum. In other words, Sola Scriptura churches at least seem to implicitly agree with St. Vincent of Lerins regarding the dangers of misinterpretation, since various heretics, including the Soccinians, the first true Unitarians since the corrupt third century bishop Paul of Samosata, and Servetus, a Binitarian, both emerged in the 16th century, argued their case using the same canon of scripture the Protestants used.

Thus, the Magisterial Reformers, both in opposition to Roman Catholicism, heresies, and also other reformers, especially the Radical Reformers like the Anabaptists, Puritans and Quakers, took to heart St. Vincent’s two paradigms, the first being that what has been believed always and everywhere by everyone can alone be properly called Catholic (thus rejecting perceived and actual Roman Catholic innovations, partially, in the case of Lutheranism, on the basis of what their early theologians thought they knew about the Eastern churches, which turned out to be largely wrong), and his second paradigm, which is best summarized by a famous quote from another Latin Church Father, St. Hilary of Poitiers: “Scripture is not in the reading but the interpretation.”

Nuda scriptura on the other hand sees itself as unconstrained by historic interpretations, often believing there to have been a great apostasy between the time the last book of the New Testament was written and the founding of their church. Of course, most people who use Nuda Scriptura call it Sola Scriptura, but the term Nuda Scriptura was coined to refer to those who are unfettered by continuity with the Early Church Fathers or the Ecumenical Councils or St. Augustine, whose influence on all of the magisterial Protestant reformers of the 16th century (Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Melancthon, etc.) was enormous.

This is why there is less difference in the Christological aspect of Soteriology between traditional Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Roman Catholicism than there is between all of the above and Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, but more than that, its also why Anglican and Lutheran worship is so similar to Roman Catholic worship, specifically the Roman Rite and its derivatives the reformers would have commonly encountered, such as the Rite of Cologne and other minor German variants, as well as Augustinian liturgical practices, among the Lutherans, and the Sarum Rite, Hereford Rite, York Rite and Durham Rite among the Anglicans, and in all of these churches, as well as the surviving Moravians, the Dominican Rite, which was the first pan-European standardized liturgy, and the Norbertine and Carmelite Rites, which were created for the same purpose. The liturgical calendar of the churches reflects the influence of the Roman Rites, the Anglican Divine Office was based on a radical reform of the Roman Breviary proposed by Cardinal Quinones around 1515, and after the Counter Reformation, the Council of Trent, and the emergence of the standard Tridentine mass, some of the Lutheran churches did revise their collects, if memory serves, and in the 19th century, when traditional vestments ceased to be taboo among Protestants, the liturgical colors adopted were from the Tridentine Mass.

So basically, Presbyterianism, and the Reformed churches of Continental European origin (which refer to their presbyteries as “classis”; the Crystal Cathedral and Robert Schuller of blessed memory were part of a mainline Reformed church of Dutch-American origin), the later post-Puritan Congregationalism, Methodism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Moravianism, the Huguenots, and the Waldensians, all resemble in doctrine and worship the Roman Catholics, especially the Lutherans and Anglo Catholics, owing to the implicit acceptance of the doctrine of St. Vincent of Lerins and of St. Hilary of Poitiers of the need for a continuity of interpretation.*

In contrast, Radical Reformation and Reconstructionist churches, like Baptists, Anabaptists, almost all Non Denominational churches, Pentecostal churches, the Calvary Chapel, and most Evangelical churches, which adhere to Sola Scriptura tempered mainly by their denomination’s own historical interpretation, articles of faith, traditions, and ministerial priorities, look much less like the Roman Catholic Church.

And then with Nuda Scriptura, we go way beyond that, because whereas Radical Reformation and Reconstructionist churches like the Calvary Chapel, and Baptists are entirely orthodox, and at least agree with the Nicene Creed even if it or the Apostles Creed is not recited at their services (I especially love the Southern Baptists), with people who are strictly Nuda Scriptura, there is no guarantee of orthodoxy, because they are going to interpret the Bible purely on their own understanding (Baptists, if I understand their doctrine correctly, claim this as the right of every Christian, but rather than producing chaos, because Baptists, particularly Southern Baptists and some of the smaller Baptist churches like the Primitive Baptists, are incredibly good at education, catechesis, and homiletics, so when a Baptist sits down to read the Bible, they are going to interpret it in a doctrinally orthodox manner, which will most likely also agree with the most prominent distinctives of Baptism). Although I disagree with them on most things related to worship, I love the Southern Baptists, especially Al Mohler, who is an amazing professor and theologian.

So in summary, nuda scriptura doesn’t have the links to the early church that characterize traditional, conservative Lutheranism, and it doesn’t have the unitive values derived from a shared, well established interpretation, which in the case of the Anabaptists dates from when Luther was still around, as well a common statement of faith and denominational traditions.

Indeed, adherents of nuda scriptura will dismiss all of these as “traditions of men”, misinterpreting as applying to the Church our Lord’s condemnation of Pharisaical Jewish traditions, which after the destruction of the Temple were compiled into the Mishnah, which in turn formed the basis for the Talmud, which is a radically different, complex, and I would argue, counterintuitive and irrationally legalistic interpretation, and the fact that the Pharisees could get from the same 22 book subset of the Old Testament that all doctrinally orthodox Christian denominations accept as the minimum or entire OT canon, depending on the church, to the doctrine found in the Mishnah and Talmud, which is summarized in the Sulchan Arav, underscores the importance of either a denominationally-informed or Patristically-linked interpretation, which ensures that Trinitarian, Nicene churches stay on the narrow path of correctness.

Many Nuda Scriptura adherents, including all of those present in this forum, are doctrinally orthodox, in that their interpretation agrees with the Nicene Creed, and the other parts of the ChristianForums.com Statement of Faith. However, they still frequently have unusual ideas which are not shared, and when they criticize members of traditional churches, evangelical churches, Baptists and so on for following “traditions of men,” it makes having a mutually edifying discussion challenging.

Note that this post is a reply only to the question asked, and is not a criticism of any individual member, nor does my concern apply to all adherents of Nuda Scriptura, many of whom, especially on ChristianForums, are well educated, doctrinally orthodox conscientious and a joy to converse with.


* At least, this was the case until liberal theology, modernist theology, liberation theology, womanist theology, queer theology, Death of God theology (yes, thats a thing, from the 1960s), postmodern theology, and the theological offshoots of various other Nihilistic and crypto-Nihilistic toxic philosophies, such as deconstructionism, came to dominate in many of the mainline Protestant churches, however, there still remains even in some of the most liberal churches, like the Episcopal Church USA, a strong resemblance to Roman Catholic worship, because these denominations, which have been shrinking at a distressing rate, especially the Episcopal Church USA, are trying to attract new members by appealing to disaffected liberal Catholics, indeed “Liberal Catholicism” is now a major theological movement in the Episcopal Church along with High Church / Anglo Catholicism, Low Church Evangelism, and the ever popular Broad Church movement, which was historically about satisfying High Church Anglo Catholics and Low Church Evangelicals, often in the same parish.

This is vitally important to the ECUSA, which is at risk of literally dying off outside of major metropolitan areas, cathedrals and high profile churches due to the advancing age of its parishioners, and which also has a diocese that was recently forced to sell off its cathedral church (which to be fair was an ugly, brutalist building from the 1960s, although some people did love it, including one of the canons who took a photographic survey). Of course, a safer and surer way to fix the problem would be to stop ignoring scripture on human sexuality and abortion and accomplish a reunion with the ACNA, which, along with Continuing Anglican churches, is at risk of failure.
 

Gregory Thompson

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Interesting term introduction, could imagine people saying, "are you one of those nudists?" I agree with the statements of the nicene creed, but disagree with the use of anathema and how it influenced church history and development - so probably fall into this new sounding category.
 
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Andrewn

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Many Nuda Scriptura adherents, including all of those present in this forum, are doctrinally orthodox, in that their interpretation agrees with the Nicene Creed, and the other parts of the ChristianForums.com Statement of Faith. However, they still frequently have unusual ideas which are not shared, and when they criticize members of traditional churches, evangelical churches, Baptists and so on for following “traditions of men,” it makes having a mutually edifying discussion challenging.
While appreciating your scholarship, I think that Baptists would fit under your definition of Nuda Scriptura. In my circles, theological thinking and study are discouraged among Baptists. They are considered an impractical waste of the time that should be spent in winning souls. Also, I've learned from participating in these Forums that some Christians do have Tritheistic views. Accepting the Nicene Creed is not a guarantee of orthodoxy. People outside the Forums may also have similar views but one rarely discusses the Trinity in coffee shop meetings :).
 
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The Liturgist

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While appreciating your scholarship, I think that Baptists would fit under your definition of Nuda Scriptura. In my circles, theological thinking and study are discouraged among Baptists. They are considered an impractical waste of the time that should be spent in winning souls. Also, I've learned from participating in these Forums that some Christians do have Tritheistic views. Accepting the Nicene Creed is not a guarantee of orthodoxy. People outside the Forums may also have similar views but one rarely discusses the Trinity in coffee shop meetings :).

Well, I don’t have experiences with the Baptist scene in Canada, which could be quite different.

By the way, speaking of Canadian things, do you know of any Anglican parishes still using the 1962 BCP rather than the Alternative Service Book?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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The Liturgist

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Interesting term introduction, could imagine people saying, "are you one of those nudists?" I agree with the statements of the nicene creed, but disagree with the use of anathema and how it influenced church history and development - so probably fall into this new sounding category.

Just because you reject how Galatians 1:8 , the basis for anathemas as a response to heresy, was interpreted or applied, does not mean you are an adherent of Nuda Scriptura. And the Nicene Creed itself has no anathemas. And your engagement with the history of the ecumenical councils suggests to me you are definitely not an adherent of Nuda Scriptura, because the majority of people in that group have no interest in Patristics at all, and would not have bothered to form an opinion about the use or misuse of anathemas.

I myself disagree with the anathemas and defrockings at the Council of Chalcedon, and the anathemas of Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia by Emperor Justinian in a failed attempt to fix the schism caused by Chalcedon, between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, so you and I are actually of a similar perspective.
 
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fhansen

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A member in another thread asked me an interesting question, which I have posted here to avoid derailing the thread and also to not give the misleading appearance of criticizing anyone participating in that thread, for nothing in this reply was written in response to the comments or beliefs of anyone in that thread, which is a positive, polite, friendly and engaging discussion over the merits of Once Saved, Always Saved. So, without further ado, here we go:



Sola scriptura, if we look at the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Belgic Comfession of Faith, the Lutheran formulas of Concord, or in the case of Anglicanism, the Book of Common Prayer, which although primarily a liturgical manual and a prayer book, is similar to Orthodox and Assyrian liturgical manuals and prayer books in that it from it the Anglican faith is chiefly derived, although it does also have a catechism and the 39 Articles, relies on an exegesis which Luther, Cranmer, Calvin, Wesley and other “Magisterial Protestants” have derived from their interpretation of the doctrines of the Early Church, what Calvinists called the consensus patrum. In other words, Sola Scriptura churches at least seem to implicitly agree with St. Vincent of Lerins regarding the dangers of misinterpretation, since various heretics, including the Soccinians, the first true Unitarians since the corrupt third century bishop Paul of Samosata, and Servetus, a Binitarian, both emerged in the 16th century, argued their case using the same canon of scripture the Protestants used.

Thus, the Magisterial Reformers, both in opposition to Roman Catholicism, heresies, and also other reformers, especially the Radical Reformers like the Anabaptists, Puritans and Quakers, took to heart St. Vincent’s two paradigms, the first being that what has been believed always and everywhere by everyone can alone be properly called Catholic (thus rejecting perceived and actual Roman Catholic innovations, partially, in the case of Lutheranism, on the basis of what their early theologians thought they knew about the Eastern churches, which turned out to be largely wrong), and his second paradigm, which is best summarized by a famous quote from another Latin Church Father, St. Hilary of Poitiers: “Scripture is not in the reading but the interpretation.”

Nuda scriptura on the other hand sees itself as unconstrained by historic interpretations, often believing there to have been a great apostasy between the time the last book of the New Testament was written and the founding of their church. Of course, most people who use Nuda Scriptura call it Sola Scriptura, but the term Nuda Scriptura was coined to refer to those who are unfettered by continuity with the Early Church Fathers or the Ecumenical Councils or St. Augustine, whose influence on all of the magisterial Protestant reformers of the 16th century (Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Melancthon, etc.) was enormous.

This is why there is less difference in the Christological aspect of Soteriology between traditional Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Roman Catholicism than there is between all of the above and Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, but more than that, its also why Anglican and Lutheran worship is so similar to Roman Catholic worship, specifically the Roman Rite and its derivatives the reformers would have commonly encountered, such as the Rite of Cologne and other minor German variants, as well as Augustinian liturgical practices, among the Lutherans, and the Sarum Rite, Hereford Rite, York Rite and Durham Rite among the Anglicans, and in all of these churches, as well as the surviving Moravians, the Dominican Rite, which was the first pan-European standardized liturgy, and the Norbertine and Carmelite Rites, which were created for the same purpose. The liturgical calendar of the churches reflects the influence of the Roman Rites, the Anglican Divine Office was based on a radical reform of the Roman Breviary proposed by Cardinal Quinones around 1515, and after the Counter Reformation, the Council of Trent, and the emergence of the standard Tridentine mass, some of the Lutheran churches did revise their collects, if memory serves, and in the 19th century, when traditional vestments ceased to be taboo among Protestants, the liturgical colors adopted were from the Tridentine Mass.

So basically, Presbyterianism, and the Reformed churches of Continental European origin (which refer to their presbyteries as “classis”; the Crystal Cathedral and Robert Schuller of blessed memory were part of a mainline Reformed church of Dutch-American origin), the later post-Puritan Congregationalism, Methodism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Moravianism, the Huguenots, and the Waldensians, all resemble in doctrine and worship the Roman Catholics, especially the Lutherans and Anglo Catholics, owing to the implicit acceptance of the doctrine of St. Vincent of Lerins and of St. Hilary of Poitiers of the need for a continuity of interpretation.*

In contrast, Radical Reformation and Reconstructionist churches, like Baptists, Anabaptists, almost all Non Denominational churches, Pentecostal churches, the Calvary Chapel, and most Evangelical churches, which adhere to Sola Scriptura tempered mainly by their denomination’s own historical interpretation, articles of faith, traditions, and ministerial priorities, look much less like the Roman Catholic Church.

And then with Nuda Scriptura, we go way beyond that, because whereas Radical Reformation and Reconstructionist churches like the Calvary Chapel, and Baptists are entirely orthodox, and at least agree with the Nicene Creed even if it or the Apostles Creed is not recited at their services (I especially love the Southern Baptists), with people who are strictly Nuda Scriptura, there is no guarantee of orthodoxy, because they are going to interpret the Bible purely on their own understanding (Baptists, if I understand their doctrine correctly, claim this as the right of every Christian, but rather than producing chaos, because Baptists, particularly Southern Baptists and some of the smaller Baptist churches like the Primitive Baptists, are incredibly good at education, catechesis, and homiletics, so when a Baptist sits down to read the Bible, they are going to interpret it in a doctrinally orthodox manner, which will most likely also agree with the most prominent distinctives of Baptism). Although I disagree with them on most things related to worship, I love the Southern Baptists, especially Al Mohler, who is an amazing professor and theologian.

So in summary, nuda scriptura doesn’t have the links to the early church that characterize traditional, conservative Lutheranism, and it doesn’t have the unitive values derived from a shared, well established interpretation, which in the case of the Anabaptists dates from when Luther was still around, as well a common statement of faith and denominational traditions.

Indeed, adherents of nuda scriptura will dismiss all of these as “traditions of men”, misinterpreting as applying to the Church our Lord’s condemnation of Pharisaical Jewish traditions, which after the destruction of the Temple were compiled into the Mishnah, which in turn formed the basis for the Talmud, which is a radically different, complex, and I would argue, counterintuitive and irrationally legalistic interpretation, and the fact that the Pharisees could get from the same 22 book subset of the Old Testament that all doctrinally orthodox Christian denominations accept as the minimum or entire OT canon, depending on the church, to the doctrine found in the Mishnah and Talmud, which is summarized in the Sulchan Arav, underscores the importance of either a denominationally-informed or Patristically-linked interpretation, which ensures that Trinitarian, Nicene churches stay on the narrow path of correctness.

Many Nuda Scriptura adherents, including all of those present in this forum, are doctrinally orthodox, in that their interpretation agrees with the Nicene Creed, and the other parts of the ChristianForums.com Statement of Faith. However, they still frequently have unusual ideas which are not shared, and when they criticize members of traditional churches, evangelical churches, Baptists and so on for following “traditions of men,” it makes having a mutually edifying discussion challenging.

Note that this post is a reply only to the question asked, and is not a criticism of any individual member, nor does my concern apply to all adherents of Nuda Scriptura, many of whom, especially on ChristianForums, are well educated, doctrinally orthodox conscientious and a joy to converse with.


* At least, this was the case until liberal theology, modernist theology, liberation theology, womanist theology, queer theology, Death of God theology (yes, thats a thing, from the 1960s), postmodern theology, and the theological offshoots of various other Nihilistic and crypto-Nihilistic toxic philosophies, such as deconstructionism, came to dominate in many of the mainline Protestant churches, however, there still remains even in some of the most liberal churches, like the Episcopal Church USA, a strong resemblance to Roman Catholic worship, because these denominations, which have been shrinking at a distressing rate, especially the Episcopal Church USA, are trying to attract new members by appealing to disaffected liberal Catholics, indeed “Liberal Catholicism” is now a major theological movement in the Episcopal Church along with High Church / Anglo Catholicism, Low Church Evangelism, and the ever popular Broad Church movement, which was historically about satisfying High Church Anglo Catholics and Low Church Evangelicals, often in the same parish.

This is vitally important to the ECUSA, which is at risk of literally dying off outside of major metropolitan areas, cathedrals and high profile churches due to the advancing age of its parishioners, and which also has a diocese that was recently forced to sell off its cathedral church (which to be fair was an ugly, brutalist building from the 1960s, although some people did love it, including one of the canons who took a photographic survey). Of course, a safer and surer way to fix the problem would be to stop ignoring scripture on human sexuality and abortion and accomplish a reunion with the ACNA, which, along with Continuing Anglican churches, is at risk of failure.
Part of the problem is that once the dam was broken, there was no formal mechanism in place to keep the flow from eroding the rest of the walls. Sola Scriptura becomes Nuda quite naturally.
 
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hedrick

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I think arguments over sola scriptura tend to obscure what is actually going on.

The problem is that the Reformers actually did make substantial changes in doctrine, and thus rejected traditional views. They just did it only with a specific set of doctrines that they thought were the basis for various abusive practices in the Church. They didn’t consider the Trinity or Incarnation to be implicated, so they didn’t reconsider them.

Many of those you list as “nuda scriptura” weren’t any more radical. They just reconsidered different doctrines. In principle the Restoration movement is different, as they specifically set out to ignore tradition entirely and reconstruct doctrine directly from Scripture. But I’m not convinced that the results are actually much more radical than other churches based on more conventional approaches.

In fact almost every new Protestant movement follows the same process: They start out making changes due to different understandings of Scripture. That then becomes a new tradition, which they defend from all other understandings, and are unwilling to change.

That analysis can’t apply directly to Catholic and Orthodox traditions, since Scripture wasn’t finalized when they started, but at least today they claim to be based on Scripture, and defend their tradition against other interpretations of Scripture exactly the same way as Protestant groups.

The only major exception is the mainline or liberal tradition. It’s an exception because it is willing to change its interpretation based on new understandings of scripture. The difference isn’t one of theoretical principle, since all Protestant groups claim that in principle they will change if shown that their understanding of Scripture is wrong. But in practice, no conservative Protestant group actually does change. I claim that there is currently no pratical difference in how any conservative group, Protestant or Catholic, treats either Scripture or tradition, no matter what their theoretical methodology, once their initial tradition has been established. (In some sense that's the definition of conservative.)

I would claim that there has been enough new information that would affect the understanding of Scripture that we would expect to see at least some changes in any groups that truly bases theology on Scripture. Some of the changes are simply a matter of time. The Reformation was based on early critical thought. But it took centuries of discussion and evaluation to really tease out the implications. Some is scientific discoveries. I think there was ample reason based on Scripture itself to realize that Genesis is not literal history. But there was such a strong tradition that it took external evidence to get people to make a real examination. Some is new knowledge about 1st Cen. Judaism, which affects how we understand many of the NT writers. I think there are such strong reasons to expect changes in doctrine that any group that hasn’t changed anything significant has to be suspected of overmuch reliance on tradition, whether they claim sola scripture, Holy Tradition, or both.
 
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hedrick

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I should note that no group, even Catholics, is truly static. There are lots of differences between current Catholic theology now and in the 16th Century. You can certainly find changes in conservative Protestant traditions as well. But there's a significant difference in the areas they're willing to consider changing, and the speed at which changes are made, compared to the mainline tradition. I'm not convinced that there's any consistent difference between Catholic and various conservative Protestant traditions here. The most sensitive areas are the Trinity or its replacement (for non Trinitarian groups), the divinity (or not) of Christ, and gender snd sex.
 
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hedrick

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Are these becoming a bigger issue nowadays?
What I meant by sensitive is that the conservative traditions are particularly unwilling to change in those areas. That’s not to say that absolutely no change happens, but it tends to be slow and accompanied by lots of arguments.

It’s clear why the Trinity and Incarnation would be important to Christians. It’s less clear to me why sex and gender is de factor so central to Christianity.

Certainly gender and sex are areas with lots of conflict now. I would say there’s has been slower and less contentious changes in how we talk about the Trinity. Certainly in the mainline tradition, but I believe Catholic academic theology is also involved.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Just because you reject how Galatians 1:8 , the basis for anathemas as a response to heresy, was interpreted or applied, does not mean you are an adherent of Nuda Scriptura. And the Nicene Creed itself has no anathemas. And your engagement with the history of the ecumenical councils suggests to me you are definitely not an adherent of Nuda Scriptura, because the majority of people in that group have no interest in Patristics at all, and would not have bothered to form an opinion about the use or misuse of anathemas.

I myself disagree with the anathemas and defrockings at the Council of Chalcedon, and the anathemas of Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia by Emperor Justinian in a failed attempt to fix the schism caused by Chalcedon, between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, so you and I are actually of a similar perspective.
The application of the anathema is taking the curse that automatically applies to the ignorant, and invoking it as an act of will. This application of cursing those who don't believe the creeds has replaced the sermon on the mount. It has created a foundation that has brought the church to division and eventual ruin.

" We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible
and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the
only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of
God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten (gennethenta), not
made, being of one substance (homoousion, consubstantialem) with the
Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in
earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven]
and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he
rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge
both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost. And
whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not
(en pote hote ouk en), or that before he was begotten he was not, or
that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different
substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or
subject to change or conversion [51] --all that so say, the Catholic
and Apostolic Church anathematizes them."

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/s/schaff/npnf214/cache/npnf214.txt

I quoted the above, because it illustrates that a curse has been added to the faith ideology - this event and the councils also adding curses to the ideologies of faith resulted in the Histories of Israel being carried out on the church organization. I note that in Deuteronomy 28, a similar cursing occurred as well.

It is this event that caused the church to be under the curse of the creeds just as the people of the old covenant were under the law.

So perhaps you are correct, and I am not a proponent of nuda scriptura, but I do have an issue with the underlying application that started early on, removing us from the faith once delivered to the saints. This is like going back to Egypt in a sense, crucifying Jesus all over again.

We may observe in time to come that Nuda Scriptura, may be used by God to repair damage done early on.
 
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hedrick

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I had never thought about the issue in these terms before. You’re right that there’s a certain parallel between defining Christianity by conformance with a creed and defining it by conformance to the Law. Both would equally violate Paul’s understanding of justification.

Unfortunately it’s not clear just what deviation Paul is condemning in Gal 1:8. Given the letter as a whole, it seems most probable that he’s condemning people who push justification by Law. While it wasn’t an issue in his time, it’s reasonable to say it would equally condemn justification by creed. The ironic result is that those using Gal 1:18 to anathematize people for violation of a creed are in fact anathematizing themselves. (Protestants have often claimed that in the 16th Cent the Catholic Church removed itself from the Church by anathematizing Luther. I would restrict that judgement to the authorities that actually did it, not the whole Catholic Church.)

This doesn’t mean that it’s wrong to have a creed. In the Reformed tradition there are several reasons for having confessions. One is to tell outsiders what we believe. This was important in the 16th Cent, in part to defend the orthodoxy of the Reformed faith. Another, which might be taken to correspond to the third use of the Law, would be to provide guidance for teaching and preaching. Obviously this guidance applies to members of the community that produced the confession, and needn’t imply that others are not Christian.
 
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The Liturgist

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Many of those you list as “nuda scriptura” weren’t any more radical. They just reconsidered different doctrines. In principle the Restoration movement is different, as they specifically set out to ignore tradition entirely and reconstruct doctrine directly from Scripture. But I’m not convinced that the results are actually much more radical than other churches based on more conventional approaches.

I didn’t list any churches as Nuda Scriptura. I am not aware of any major Christian denomination which fits that definition. I rather listed churches which instead of relying on a Patristic basis for their exegesis rely on what many people would call their denominational “distinctives,” which is also fine as it keeps scriptural interpretation focused.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Certainly gender and sex are areas with lots of conflict now. I would say there’s has been slower and less contentious changes in how we talk about the Trinity. Certainly in the mainline tradition, but I believe Catholic academic theology is also involved.

There are a number of pushes for renaming the Trinity to Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier or some such combination. There is the ELCA congregation, herchurch.org , which celebrated

Upcoming Goddesses:
We’re trying something new! We’ll be painting some Holy Women- women who have effected Women’s Spirituality and liberation- along with goddesses!
Upcoming:
March 15, Saint Bernadette, who had the vision of Our Lady of Lourdes
April 19, goddess Of Spring Ostara, from whose name we get the word Easter
 
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The Liturgist

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The application of the anathema is taking the curse that automatically applies to the ignorant, and invoking it as an act of will. This application of cursing those who don't believe the creeds has replaced the sermon on the mount. It has created a foundation that has brought the church to division and eventual ruin.

" We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible
and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the
only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of
God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten (gennethenta), not
made, being of one substance (homoousion, consubstantialem) with the
Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in
earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven]
and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he
rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge
both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost. And
whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not
(en pote hote ouk en), or that before he was begotten he was not, or
that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different
substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or
subject to change or conversion [51] --all that so say, the Catholic
and Apostolic Church anathematizes them."

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/s/schaff/npnf214/cache/npnf214.txt

I quoted the above, because it illustrates that a curse has been added to the faith ideology - this event and the councils also adding curses to the ideologies of faith resulted in the Histories of Israel being carried out on the church organization. I note that in Deuteronomy 28, a similar cursing occurred as well.

It is this event that caused the church to be under the curse of the creeds just as the people of the old covenant were under the law.

So perhaps you are correct, and I am not a proponent of nuda scriptura, but I do have an issue with the underlying application that started early on, removing us from the faith once delivered to the saints. This is like going back to Egypt in a sense, crucifying Jesus all over again.

We may observe in time to come that Nuda Scriptura, may be used by God to repair damage done early on.

Note that the Nicene Creed you are using there is the old one, from 325. When I or most people say Nicene Creed, we mean the updated version, revised at the Council of Chalcedon in 381, which lacks any anathema in the creed itself, and is strictly a confession of faith.
 
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hedrick

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I didn’t list any churches as Nuda Scriptura. I am not aware of any major Christian denomination which fits that definition. I rather listed churches which instead of relying on a Patristic basis for their exegesis rely on what many people would call their denominational “distinctives,” which is also fine as it keeps scriptural interpretation focused.
So if your definition of sola scriptura, as opposed to nuda scriptura, means interpretation in the light of a denominational tradition then I'd agree that pretty everyone is sola scriptura. Including "non-denomiational" denominations. Even the mainline, which despite the weirdos you mentioned, forms basically a single tradition that also includes many Catholics.
 
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There are a number of pushes for renaming the Trinity to Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier or some such combination. There is the ELCA congregation, herchurch.org , which celebrated

Upcoming Goddesses:
We’re trying something new! We’ll be painting some Holy Women- women who have effected Women’s Spirituality and liberation- along with goddesses!
Upcoming:
March 15, Saint Bernadette, who had the vision of Our Lady of Lourdes
April 19, goddess Of Spring Ostara, from whose name we get the word Easter

What I love about the Orthodox Church is it will resist to the point of martyrdom anything like that; consider the heroism of the laity, who with only St. Mark of Ephesus on their side, stood up to nearly the entire hierarchy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople to reject the Council of Florence, even though it was clear to all of them that this would inevitably lead to Turkocratia, and it did, and many Orthodox were martyred, who could have lived if they viewed doctrine as something mutable and not worth dying for, had they not stopped the bishops from signing on the 15th century equivalent of a dotted line with the Roman Catholic Church during its period of doctrinal confusion with the Avignon schism, the corruption of the Borgias, the sale of indulgences and other things that led to the Reformation. And if the Eastern Orthodox churches had joined the Roman Catholic Church, the Reformation would have divided them as well.
 
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hedrick

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There are a number of pushes for renaming the Trinity to Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier or some such combination. There is the ELCA congregation, herchurch.org , which celebrated

Upcoming Goddesses:
We’re trying something new! We’ll be painting some Holy Women- women who have effected Women’s Spirituality and liberation- along with goddesses!
Upcoming:
March 15, Saint Bernadette, who had the vision of Our Lady of Lourdes
April 19, goddess Of Spring Ostara, from whose name we get the word Easter
Aside from this kind of thing, normally people who use the term "creator, redeemer and sustainer" are using normal Trinitarian theology with different names. I actually haven't heard of this for years, though herchurch apparently does still exist.

One of the consequences of not anthematizing people for violations of the creeds is that we have some weirdos. But there is still a discernible mainline theology.

I don't know of any way to maintain doctrinal conformity other than ejecting (or somehow muzzling) people who don't conform. In practice this turns into justification by creed. I think at times we're overreacting to the history of persecuting dissenters by not having enough limits, but I'd much rather err on that side.
 
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Aside from this kind of thing, normally people who use the term "creator, redeemer and sustainer" are using normal Trinitarian theology with different names. I actually haven't heard of this for years, though herchurch apparently does still exist.

One of the consequences of not anthematizing people for violations of the creeds is that we have some weirdos. But there is still a discernible mainline theology.

I don't know of any way to maintain doctrinal conformity other than ejecting (or somehow muzzling) people who don't conform. In practice this turns into justification by creed. I think at times we're overreacting to the history of persecuting dissenters by not having enough limits, but I'd much rather err on that side.

In our liturgical cycle there are some feast days where various anathemas are still read such as the Feast of Orthodoxy on the seventh EC on iconoclasm.

Those who apply the sayings of the divine Scripture that are directed against idols to the august icons of Christ our God and his saints: Anathema!

Those who say that Christians treat the icons like gods: Anathema!
 
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