Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine - or accept God's Prophets - but not both?

tall73

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I don't doubt that they would use all the information they had on any one specific topic. I also don't doubt that in a Lutheran discussion they would be willing to look at the Bible and something Luther wrote and in other church they might be willing to look at the Bible and also something C.H. Spurgeon or John Calvin, or someone else like Matthew Henry wrote on the topic just to get as much input as they could find on the topic.

You know those are not the same to Adventists. Because they consider her inspired.

If a Lutheran were to say "I think my view of this text is right and I don't care if Luther did not share my view - then another Lutheran might either agree or side with Luther... it can go either way. But in the end each person has freewill. Some Calvinists may not agree with freewill -- but that is what we believe.

What I doubt is the idea that when I go to church and see a Bible question asked -- a bible answer will only be given if the person asking is not an SDA. I have a number of years in attending that sort of open Q&A in Sabbath school and have yet to see that happen or to meet someone in church that said "That is the only thing I ever see happen -- Adventist questions won't be answered from the Bible - only non-SDAs get that sort of answer".

Of course you are distorting what was said. They answer Bible questions with the Bible all the time.

But then if someone mentions a Bible understanding that does not agree with Ellen White, they mention Ellen White.
 
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mmksparbud

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Would you like a list of her false prophesies?


I have been shown them often and pointed out that they were not false. I suspect you have the same list, but, if you have not posted them before go right ahead. Don't know if that would be considered off topic by Op, but go ahead. Just make sure you quote what she actually said and not what you think she said or were told she said.
 
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BobRyan

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They answer Bible questions with the Bible all the time.

But then if someone mentions a Bible understanding that does not agree with Ellen White, they mention Ellen White.

you yourself said that if someone is accepted as a legitimate prophet and claims to have a message from God saying "A" -- where it is not contradicting the Bible (so again - legit prophet) - then there is no Bible option out there for "well no matter what God said - you go ahead and say -- "B".

In fact I kept asking you for your POV on that point and you stated emphatically that "A" is the only option in that case. How is it you do not like your own statement that this is the right answer?
 
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BobRyan

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I have been shown them often and pointed out that they were not false. I suspect you have the same list, but, if you have not posted them before go right ahead. Don't know if that would be considered off topic by Op, but go ahead. Just make sure you quote what she actually said and not what you think she said or were told she said.

yes good point. It is off topic somewhat because my real OP interest here is on the Bible teaching for both sola-scriptura testing and also prophets and how one is to do that testing if there is a "modern" prophet that gets messages on the same topic you are studying.

I should probably add to the OP - "BTW it is a given that non-SDAs do not accept an SDA as a prophet - my interest here is in the Bible doctrine about sola-scriptura testing and the Bible doctrine on prophets".
 
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tall73

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you yourself said that if someone is accepted as a legitimate prophet and claims to have a message from God saying "A" -- where it is not contradicting the Bible (so again - legit prophet) - then there is no Bible option out there for "well no matter what God said - you go ahead and say -- "B".

Yes, which is why the claim that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching is tested doesn't work for Adventists, because Ellen White comments on the Bible, and they receive her as inspired so they take her writings about particular Bible statement as an inspired commentary.

What Adventists Believe about the Prophetic Gift | Adventist.org
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)


In fact I kept asking you for your POV on that point and you stated emphatically that "A" is the only option in that case. How is it you do not like your own statement that this is the right answer?

If you have tested Ellen White and believe her inspired then you cannot say that the Bible is the standard, when you accept another source of inspired commentary on the Bible and allow her commentary to decide which interpretations you can accept in Sabbath school, etc.
 
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mmksparbud

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yes good point. It is off topic somewhat because my real OP interest here is on the Bible teaching for both sola-scriptura testing and also prophets and how one is to do that testing if there is a "modern" prophet that gets messages on the same topic you are studying.

I should probably add to the OP - "BTW it is a given that non-SDAs do not accept an SDA as a prophet - my interest here is in the Bible doctrine about sola-scriptura testing and the Bible doctrine on prophets".


OK---agree--they can always start their own thread on that topic---there have been many, as you know, and none of them were successful.
 
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tall73

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I should probably add to the OP - "BTW it is a given that non-SDAs do not accept an SDA as a prophet - my interest here is in the Bible doctrine about sola-scriptura testing and the Bible doctrine on prophets".

Well one of my members was led by a vision of Christ to a certain place to share his faith with someone. So in that instance he received a message from God, an example of an Adventist receiving a prophecy.

Perhaps you mean specifically Ellen White?
 
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BobRyan

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Well one of my members was led by a vision of Christ to a certain place to share his faith with someone. So in that instance he received a message from God, an example of an Adventist receiving a prophecy.

Perhaps you mean specifically Ellen White?

And do the non-SDAs you meet all agree to accept that person as a prophet?

And if you ever found one who did - would they still accept him as a prophet if we claimed God approved of some distinctive statement/doctrine of Adventists?
 
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tall73

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And do the non-SDAs you meet all agree to accept that person as a prophet?

Prophecy is a gift. But he has claimed no other prophecy that I know of. He was an Adventist. But those I shared the story with who were not Adventist did not seem to have any issue with it.

If they did they didn't say anything. And we talk about how we are to desire the gift of prophecy in I Corinthians.
 
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tall73

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And if you ever found one who did - would they still accept him as a prophet if we claimed God approved of some distinctive statement/doctrine of Adventists?

Hard to say, they would have to test it as any message.
 
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BobRyan

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Prophecy is a gift. But he has claimed no other prophecy that I know of. He was an Adventist. But those I shared the story with who were not Adventist did not seem to have any issue with it.

If they did they didn't say anything .

Well if you come across an SDA who claims God is in direct communication and has expressed approval of some distinctive SDA doctrine - it will be interesting to see if non-SDAs go for that as a genuine prophetic example.

My assumption is that they would not - for the sake of simplicity on this thread.

And I even have an example for "Show and tell" -


“Must See Amazing Story! Saved from homosexuality, drugs, suicide, demon worship, and a Muslim faith.”
 
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tall73

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Well if you come across an SDA who claims God is in direct communication and has expressed approval of some distinctive SDA doctrine - it will be interesting to see if non-SDAs go for that as a genuine prophetic example.

My assumption is that they would not - for the sake of simplicity on this thread.

And I even have an example for "Show and tell" -

Since he only claimed the one vision, that would be hard to tell. This one was fulfilled nearly immediately, similar to the angel directing Philip.
 
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tall73

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Well if you come across an SDA who claims God is in direct communication and has expressed approval of some distinctive SDA doctrine - it will be interesting to see if non-SDAs go for that as a genuine prophetic example.

I had a Catholic claim the same to support Catholic doctrine. Still had to evaluate the statements.
 
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tall73

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The Adventist wanting to evaluate Ellen White has a lot of statements to go through. And now they have even more manuscript releases of letters sent, etc.


upload_2021-4-22_21-38-50.jpeg
 
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The Liturgist

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1. At the time Ellen White dies (1915) the United States was not yet a super power

That’s a falsehood. The US had demonstrated its military capability with The Great White Fleet under Teddy Roosevelt, and in 1915 was the world’s most technologically advanced country in most industries, especially electrification and telephony, with the US being the first country with large scale manufacturing of primitive data processing machines by companies like IBM and Burroughs, and widespread automatic dialing of phones calls using step-by-step switches. We also had more track miles of electric railways, and better and more frequent passenger trains, than anywhere else.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
1. At the time Ellen White dies (1915) the United States was not yet a super power

That’s a falsehood. The US had demonstrated its military capability with The Great White Fleet under Teddy Roosevelt, and in 1915 was the world’s most technologically advanced country in most industries, especially electrification and telephony, .

In 1915 it was a fledgling military power - with almost no Navy, a tiny army and no capacity to project power as compared to the other world powers.

"America did not have an economy that had been put on a war footing and such a transformation would take time – and the Allies did not have time on their side."
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-one/americas-military-power-in-world-war-one/

"America had been the provider of many war parts for the French and British armies while it was neutral. Ironically, now in war, both the British and French armies provided the first arriving American troops with equipment and uniforms. The AEF was given French artillery guns (the 75 and 155mm) while the British provided mortars, machine guns, steel helmets and some uniforms.


"The lack of speed with which the AEF was sent to Europe was later criticised by David Lloyd George. The 1st Division AEF landed in France in June 1917. The 2nd Division did not arrive until September and by October 31st, 1917, the AEF only numbered 6,064 officers and 80,969 men. In roughly the same time span in 1914, the BEF had got 354,750 men into the field. Nine months after America declared war, there were 175,000 American troops in Western Europe. In the same time span of nine months from 1914 to 1915, Britain had put 659,104 men into the various theatres of war. Therefore, in 1917, despite her strength on paper, America played little part in the war activities of that year."

"America was all but starting from the beginning. In peacetime, the American army only numbered 190,000 and they were spread across America. Now with the declaration of war, these men had to move to the eastern seaboard where many camps had to be built to accommodate them before they sailed across the Atlantic. French ports had to be greatly expanded to handle the influx of men and the French rail network in the region had to be expanded."

"when the Germans launched their great offensive of March 1918, there was only one American division in the Allied lines – with three divisions in training areas. The series of German offensives from March to July 1918 posed great dangers to the French and British armies. Paris was threatened and on two occasions, the British were nearly driven into the Channel on two occasions. But in all of these attacks, the Americans played little part."

1. The idea that in 1915 America was the world's "superpower" does not pass the test of history.

2. the statement about America becoming the dominant world military and political power was not made in 1915 - it was made in 1884 (and I am looking for it in the 1850's.)

==========================

su·per·pow·er
(so͞o′pər-pou′ər)
n.
A powerful and influential nation, especially a nuclear power that dominates its allies or client states in an international power bloc.
 
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RBPerry

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In fact it is hard to imagine how someone even comes up with that idea.

Sorry Bob, have a bad habit of evaluating what people say.
I agree to evaluate opinions, beliefs, prophesies with scripture. The problem is interpretation.
I've been told I have offended some SDA people, that has never been my purpose; to those I have offended I am truly sorry. I'm done.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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OK I got a tangential side question @The Liturgist.

It's obvious that saint Paul is not a big fan of women teachers in the Church. He definitely did not want female clergy, and those that taught basically taught in their home. So how is this problem dealt with? Is it that she is framed purely as a prophet because their were a few female prophets in the Judeo-Christian tradition? Because it seems like they are obviously going against Paul, who obviously didn't want a woman to have any kind of Magisterial authority or to be on the level of a episcopes. The most notable female prophet was the judge Deborah who was not a teacher, we don't have any writing from women like Priscilla, not do we know really anything about the daughters of Agabus, or really anything about Junia.
 
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BobRyan

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OK I got a tangential side question @The Liturgist.

It's obvious that saint Paul is not a big fan of women teachers in the Church. He definitely did not want female clergy, and those that taught basically taught in their home. So how is this problem dealt with? Is it that she is framed purely as a prophet because their were a few female prophets in the Judeo-Christian tradition? Because it seems like they are obviously going against Paul, who obviously didn't want a woman to have any kind of Magisterial authority or to be on the level of a episcopes. The most notable female prophet was the judge Deborah who was not a teacher, we don't have any writing from women like Priscilla, not do we know really anything about the daughters of Agabus, or really anything about Junia.

Anna in the Temple at the time of Christ's dedication was "a woman".
Philip's two daughters were prophets.
1 Cor 14 "each one" has a revelation -- a lot of women prophets in the church of Corinth

Paul affirms this in 1Cor 14 -- he was not opposing it.
 
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tall73

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Anna in the Temple at the time of Christ's dedication was "a woman".
Philip's two daughters were prophets.
1 Cor 14 "each one" has a revelation -- a lot of women prophets in the church of Corinth

Paul affirms this in 1Cor 14 -- he was not opposing it.


You can add in:

1Co 11:4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,
1Co 11:5 but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.
 
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