Sodomy

[Ainesis]

Ainesis: In other threads, it's been my burden to point out that people are using the term "homosexuality" in two distinct meanings -- the orientation of being romantically and sexually attracted to someone of the same sex, and the sexual actions taken by some of those people. For obvious reasons, it makes a big difference which meaning you're implying when you say the word.

I remember some of your posts in this area.

I think that a similar problem with sodomy exists here. Bypassing for the moment Ezekiel's description of the "iniquity of Sodom" -- which I think has some important things to say to the rest of us on Christian morality -- what God condemns regarding sex is a wide assortment of sexual practices outside marriage and for personal gratification at the expense of another.

I would also add that God's directions relating to sex not only address activities outside of marriage, or for personal gratification at the expnse of others, but also acts that were deemed by Him to be unclean.

Certainly a married man can be a whoremonger or adulterer -- but not with his wife. By definition of those terms he is having sexual relations outside the marriage bond and in violation of his vows in committing them. Consensual sexual activity between a married couple for mutual pleasure and perhaps procreation cannot be adulterous by definition, and one would need to strain "whoremonger" to the limits of the credible to find any way to apply it to consensual marital sex.

I would disagree. The word for whoremonger covers all illicit or unlawful sexual activity. I have seen no Scriptures indicating that illicit sexual activities are no longer illicit when practiced between husband and wife. I have seen no Scriptures that say illicit sexual practices are no longer illicit when the parties mutually consent to it.

The framework for what is sinful is not dictated by the relationship expressing the sin, but by God who alone defines what is sinful. So, unless you can show where God states that these acts are not sinful in a marriage, I would have to go back to His classification that these acts are sinful.

My conclusion in an earlier post is that God is not particularly interested in laying down a generic set of rules for sexuality within marriage -- He created us to enjoy sex within marriage, after all -- but rather that what is offensive or sinful to you individually, that you should not do, because for you it is sin. But for a couple to take pleasure in each other's bodies within a loving marital bond is not sinful but the reason for which God created us as sexual creatures. I encourage the reading of Romans 14 and the analogies which Paul draws there, as to what the proper use of Christian liberty in His service might be, and seeing how it may apply to this question.

I would agree that God is not interested in laying down a generic set of rules for sexuality within marriage. He does not have to because He has already indicated what is forbidden regarding sexual actvities. Therefore, why would He need to address sex in marriage specifically unless those prohibitions change for married couples?

Yes, we certainly have liberty in Christ. I am a strong proponent of that. However, that liberty does not give us a license to sin.


Paul has not written this text to say that our own feelings are the determinants of what is sinful. But he encourages us to let each other's faith grow so that we can each in our own time and way, come to appreciate the liberty that we have in Christ.

Paul is not saying that if we don't believe something to be sinful, then it isn't. Nor is he encouraging us to use our feelings as a barometer for identifying sin. It is not our belief that makes something sinful, but what God determines to be sinful.

 

[herev]

Okay, then I agree that a husband in wife should respect each other in general.


Yes you did. That was sort of what led us here. You said in post #56 "I have become a firm believer through studying the history of the church's reaction towards sexuality, that God created sex to be GOOD, but certainly within bounds. The question, I think, you and I differ on, is what are the boundaries." [emphasis mine]

So, I asked where in Scripture we see those boundaries identified. Are you saying that you now believe there are no boundaries for sex in marriage?


Basically Tommy because I don't think that the relationship through which sin is expressed changes the act from being sinful.

This argument is actually what a number of homosexuals say. "God does not address acts of sodomy in a loving, committed relationship." Somehow the idea that this act is expressed in a consensual relationship makes it okay. I disagree.

Let me ask you this, when God says that a man should not lie with a man as he lies with a woman, is the thing forbidden here only the genders of the two involved, or is it the "act" by which they are lieing with one another?

I believe that Hebrews 13:4 exhorts us to keep marriage honorable and the bed undefiled. The only one who can commit adultery is one who is married, so clearly God is not saying that those people who are married cannot be an adulterers. God is setting forth the standards for how to have an honorable marriage and an undefiled bed: don't become whoremongers or adulterers.

You ask how whoremongers applies to anal and oral sex. I showed before how the word whoremonger here is Pornos meaning "a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire; a male prostitute; a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse."

Anyone who engages in unlawful intercourse is a whoremonger. Unlawful means illicit or not sanctioned by law. Where do we see oral and anal sex sanctioned by the laws of God? I would say that we see such behavior forbidden.

It seems to me that Hebrews 13:4 shows that those who become adulterers or commit illicit sexual acts have defiled the marriage bed and disnonored the marriage.


For me, yes that was waaaaay too much!

I don't tend to get extreme about this. Clearly we can touch each other and kiss each other and be passionate with one another. Just look at Songs of Solomon as suggested the OP. However, the issue for me is are certain sexual acts forbidden by God and if so, where are these prohibitions overturned for cases of marriage.

1. Ah,, I see, in post 56, when I said" "I have become a firm believer through studying the history of the church's reaction towards sexuality, that God created sex to be GOOD, but certainly within bounds. The question, I think, you and I differ on, is what are the boundaries." I was saying tht sex is only good within bounds, nowhere did I say that sex within marriage is only good within bounds--the difference in boundaries is just that--you think it is restricted within marriage, I do not (except as listed in my earlier posts)

2. as to:
Let me ask you this, when God says that a man should not lie with a man as he lies with a woman, is the thing forbidden here only the genders of the two involved, or is it the "act" by which they are lieing with one another?
I actully do believe it is the genders involved. The sentece structure (at least in English) lays claim to this--do not lie with a man the way in which you lie with a woman makes no mention of sin in except to say that what is permissable with the opposite sex is forbidden with the same sex. It says what you would do with a woman--don't do with a man, not what you would do with a man, you can't do with a woman

3. when you say:
I believe that Hebrews 13:4 exhorts us to keep marriage honorable and the bed undefiled. The only one who can commit adultery is one who is married, so clearly God is not saying that those people who are married cannot be an adulterers. God is setting forth the standards for how to have an honorable marriage and an undefiled bed: don't become whoremongers or adulterers.
I agree

4. as to:
You ask how whoremongers applies to anal and oral sex. I showed before how the word whoremonger here is Pornos meaning "a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire; a male prostitute; a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse."
Yes, you did, but you haven't shown me (or I should really say convinced me ) that anal or oral sex or any consentual sexual contact that is strictly within a marriage of one husband and one wife, legally and morally wed in the sight of God is unlawful sexual intercourse.
That's the rub, again its the definition of sodomy. Sodomy is not in the bible--it took on its definitions in legal systems many, many years after the Bible was written under a system in which man's belief was that anything of the flesh was wrong--sex begin the worst culprit--and so the only reason one could enjoy sexual expession was for the sole purpose of producing offspring--they were actually supposed to "endure" it, not "enjoy" it. I believe this to be unbiblical and unhealthy.
While I am all in favor of the understanding that God has restricted sexual contact to that which takes place between husband and wife, I do not think we are limited to any particular expression of that sexual contact by Scripture.
In other words, to put it simply, Biblically speaking, I'm against sodomy, butnot against oral or anal sex within marriage--the two are not related (IMHO)

5. when you say:
Anyone who engages in unlawful intercourse is a whoremonger. Unlawful means illicit or not sanctioned by law. Where do we see oral and anal sex sanctioned by the laws of God?
Are you sure you want to use the word LAW here? When you say:
Clearly we can touch each other and kiss each other and be passionate with one another
I don't recall those acts being santioned anywhere by the laws of God, either. We find great evidence of it in the Song, but not in the laws, but again, many who are far wiser than I have interpreted parts of the Song as mentioning nearly all types of sexual activity, including oral sex as you have seen here. But law? That may be another difference--Question: Which system of belief do you traditionally follow:
I can not do anything forbidden in the Bible but anything else is okeedokee
or
I can only do those things that are explicity allowed in the Bible everything esle is forbidden
there's a distinct difference and your response would seem to indicate that if the Bible doesn't say its ok, then I can't do it, while I would say, if the Bible doesn't say I can't--then I can

6. and lastly:
However, the issue for me is are certain sexual acts forbidden by God and if so, where are these prohibitions overturned for cases of marriage.
AGreed, here, sadly, you and I may never come together.
for me, are certain sexual acts forbidden in certain sexual circimstances. For example regular old missionary style sexual intercourse in forbidden outside of marriage, but allowed into it.

I think you are an admirable debater , but there are too many assumptions on this one for you to convince me to change my mind, as I know you will not change yours, either.
Thanks for the debate, I'll check in later.
Tommy

 

[herev]

I would also add that God's directions relating to sex not only address activities outside of marriage, or for personal gratification at the expnse of others, but also acts that were deemed by Him to be unclean.

Just a quick note, all sexual acts were unclean according to the law. Even with sex inside an ordained marriage, there was a ritual time and acts of cleansing required for both male and female.

 

[Ainesis]

I think you are an admirable debater , but there are too many assumptions on this one for you to convince me to change my mind, as I know you will not change yours, either.
Thanks for the debate, I'll check in later.
Tommy

Hi Tommy,

I hope you know that I was not trying to change your mind. I think we must each be convicted in our own hearts in terms of what is right or wrong before God. I was just complying with your request to explain what I believe.

I do believe that the acts of sodomy are forbidden by God across the board, but this will indeed be something we must agree to disagree on.

Thanks so much for the converstion!

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Just a quick note, all sexual acts were unclean according to the law. Even with sex inside an ordained marriage, there was a ritual time and acts of cleansing required for both male and female.

Perhaps God was stressing the need for good hygene in a hot climate where disease and infection spread quickly and easily. There would be dire natural consequences for anyone who didn't "follow the maker's instructions".

Karin

 

[herev]

Hi Tommy,

I hope you know that I was not trying to change your mind. I think we must each be convicted in our own hearts in terms of what is right or wrong before God. I was just complying with your request to explain what I believe.

I do believe that the acts of sodomy are forbidden by God across the board, but this will indeed be something we must agree to disagree on.

Thanks so much for the converstion!

no offense, I enjoyed it. Isn't is something that you and I are so far apart, and yet, I agree,, acts of sodomy are fobidden across the board, but as to the definiton of that in Biblical terms, yes, we will disagree--God Bless you friend.

 

[Merseymike]

I'd say that all Christians have boundaries, I don't think that any of us believe in a 'free for all'

 

[herev]

I'd say that all Christians have boundaries, I don't think that any of us believe in a 'free for all'

amen to that!

 

[Katydid]

Not with relatives
Not with your mother
Not with your father
Not with your father's wife
Not with your sister
Not with your father's wife's duaughter
Not with your granchildren
Not with your daughter
Not with father's sister
Not with mother's sister
Not with father's brother''s wife
Not with father's brother
Not with son's wife
Not with brother's wife
Not with Wife's daughter
Not with wife's grandchildren
Not with wife's sister
Not wduring menstration
Not with another amn's wife
Not with another man
Not with a beast
Woman not with a beast


And this is interesting, Not to castrate the male of any species.

Those are all the sexual prohibitions. They are found in Leviticus 18:6-23. Except the Last which is in Leviticus 22:24. So as long as you don't do these, then you are not doing anything that is biblically prohibited.

 

[magnum]

My wife called me a beast during the heat of passion once. Does that exclude me ???

 

[calicoangel]

My wife called me a beast during the heat of passion once. Does that exclude me ???

LOL!!

 

[Ainesis]

My wife called me a beast during the heat of passion once. Does that exclude me ???

No...but that statement may now exclude you!

Just kidding of course!