Socialists?

How Socialist are you?

  • Very Socialist

  • Somewhat Socialist

  • Moderate

  • Not very Socialist

  • Grrrr Socialism! grrrrrrr!


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rayodeluz

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lismore

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Over here there's a saying that if you aren't left wing under 40 you don't have a heart and if you're still left wing over 40 you don't have a brain. :p

Interesting.

I think more older people here are turning to socialistic type political parties. Life is getting tougher for the elderly here in Scotland, the power companies recently announced a 19% increase in the cost of electricity. To get hit by such an increase every year older people couldnt survive without state support, they wouldnt be able to afford the cost of heating their homes in winter.
 
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sealacamp

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Outside of politics, sports, and popular entertainment, how many living Germans, or French, or Austrians, or even Brits can you name?
Even well-informed people who love art and literature and who follow developments in science and medicine would be hard pressed to come up with many, more often any, names. In terms of greatness in literature, art, music, the sciences, philosophy, and medical breakthroughs, Europe has virtually fallen off the radar screen.
This is particularly meaningful given how different the answer would have been had you asked anyone the same question between just 80 and 120 years ago -- and certainly before that. A plethora of world-renowned names would have flowed.
Obvious examples would include (in alphabetical order): Brecht, Buber, Cezanne, Chekhov, Curie, Debussy, Eiffel, Einstein, Freud, Hesse, Kafka, Mahler, Mann, Marconi, Pasteur, Porsche, Proust, Somerset Maugham, Strauss, Stravinsky, Tolstoy, Zeppelin, Zola.
Not to mention the European immortals who lived within the century before them: Mozart, Beethoven, Dostoevsky, Darwin, Kierkegaard, Manet, Monet, Hugo and Van Gogh, to name only a few.

What has happened?
What has happened is that Europe, with a few exceptions, has lost its creativity, intellectual excitement, industrial innovation, and risk taking. Europe’s creative energy has been sapped. There are many lovely Europeans; but there aren’t many creative, dynamic, or entrepreneurial ones.
The issues that preoccupy most Europeans are overwhelmingly material ones: How many hours per week will I have to work? How much annual vacation time will I have? How many social benefits can I preserve (or increase)? How can my country avoid fighting against anyone or for anyone?
Why has this happened?
There are two reasons: secularism and socialism (aka the welfare state).
Either one alone sucks much of the life out of society. Together they are likely to be lethal.
Even if one holds that religion is false, only a dogmatic and irrational secularist can deny that it was religion in the Western world that provided the impetus or backdrop for nearly all the uniquely great art, literature, economic and even scientific advances of the West. Even the irreligious were forced to deal with religious themes -- if only in expressing rebellion against them.

Religion in the West raised all the great questions of life: Why are we here? Is there purpose to existence? Were we deliberately made? Is there something after death? Are morals objective or only a matter of personal preference? Do rights come from the state or from the Creator?
And religion gave positive responses: We are here because a benevolent God made us. There is, therefore, ultimate purpose to life. Good and evil are real. Death is not the end. Human rights are inherent since they come from God. And so on.
Secularism drains all this out of life. No one made us. Death is the end. We are no more significant than any other creatures. We are all the results of mere coincidence. Make up your own meaning (existentialism) because life has none. Good and evil are merely euphemisms for “I like” and “I dislike.”



Thus, when religion dies in a country, creativity wanes. For example, while Christian Russia was backward in many ways, it still gave the world Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Tolstoy, and Tchaikovsky. Once Christianity was suppressed, if not killed, in Russia, that country became a cultural wasteland (with a few exceptions like Shostakovich and Solzhenitsyn, the latter a devout Christian). It is true that this was largely the result of Lenin, Stalin and Communism; but even where Communism did not take over, the decline of religion in Europe meant a decline in human creativity -- except for nihilistic and/or absurd isms, which have greatly increased. As G. K. Chesterton noted at the end of the 19th century, when people stop believing in God they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in anything. One not only thinks of the violent isms: Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, Fascism, Maoism, and Nazism, but of all the non-violent isms that have become substitute religions – e.g., feminism, environmentalism, and socialism.
The state sucks out creativity and dynamism just as much as secularism does. Why do anything for yourself when the state will do it for you? Why take care of others when the state will do it for you? Why have ambition when the state is there to ensure that few or no individuals are rewarded more than others?
America has been the center of energy and creativity in almost every area of life because it has remained far more religious than any other industrialized Western democracy and because it has rejected the welfare state social model.
Which is why so many are so worried about President Barack Obama and the Democratic Party’s desire to transform -- in their apt wording -- America into a secular welfare state. The greatest engine of moral, religious, economic, scientific, and industrial dynamism is being starved of its fuel. The bigger the state, the smaller its people.

This was written by Dennis Prager, who is Jewish and not a Christian at all. He is absolutely correct and has historical perspective that is acute and very accurate. It is too bad that so many people have been lulled into a sense of security that is false.

Socialism and Secularism Suck Vitality Out of Society - Page 1 - Dennis Prager - Townhall Conservative

Sealacamp
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Izdaari Eristikon

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Izdaari, since you're a libertarian and this thread is about socialism, I was wondering what's your take on libertarian socialism
Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think it's an inherent contradiction, like atheist Christianity. They believe in people being free, except that when it comes to capitalist acts between consenting adults, they want to curtail that freedom. That's radically inconsistent!

I've known a lot of people who called themselves libertarian socialists, but every one of them had a problem with letting people be free economically. Sure, they might be against having a government, but they always seem to want some sort of coercive social organization that doesn't allow people to do what they want in that regard. That might as well be a government, even though they don't call it that.

OTOH, if my church wanted to practice completely voluntary socialism within the church, as some of the very earliest Christians did, I'd be inclined to go along with it. The difference? Every individual involved consents.
 
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Bron

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Ah, yes, the Americo-centric viewpoint. Here an article by Albert Einstein.


Why Socialism?

Albert Einstein


Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.
Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist. The discovery of general laws in the field of economics is made difficult by the circumstance that observed economic phenomena are often affected by many factors which are very hard to evaluate separately. In addition, the experience which has accumulated since the beginning of the so-called civilized period of human history has—as is well known—been largely influenced and limited by causes which are by no means exclusively economic in nature. For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.
But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called “the predatory phase” of human development. The observable economic facts belong to that phase and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.
Second, socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end. Science, however, cannot create ends and, even less, instill them in human beings; science, at most, can supply the means by which to attain certain ends. But the ends themselves are conceived by personalities with lofty ethical ideals and—if these ends are not stillborn, but vital and vigorous—are adopted and carried forward by those many human beings who, half unconsciously, determine the slow evolution of society.
For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.
Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supra-national organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: “Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?”
...
[Because] man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept “society” means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is “society” which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable and susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make new combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human being which are not dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life through his own conduct, and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.
Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society. Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.
......It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.
I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.
The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.
For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call “workers” all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production—although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. Insofar as the labor contract is “free,” what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists’ requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.
Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.
The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized by two main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the “free labor contract” for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present day economy does not differ much from “pure” capitalism.
Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers’ goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.
This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

[The rest of that article to follow........]
 
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Bron

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[The rest......]

Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

Clarity about the aims and problems of socialism is of greatest significance in our age of transition. .....
 
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rayodeluz

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I think it's an inherent contradiction, like atheist Christianity. They believe in people being free, except that when it comes to capitalist acts between consenting adults, they want to curtail that freedom. That's radically inconsistent!

I like Noam Chomsky's explanation on why libertarian socialism is not a contradiction in terms Libertarian Socialism is Not a Contradiction in Terms « The FЯEEDOSPHERE

Here's another pretty good answer:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080228012418AAuOBFU

This is something that I've posted before that will explain why the term "libertarian socialism" is not an oxymoron:

One must be careful to make one's intended meaning
known when using the terms "socialism" and "capitalism"
(as well as related terms) because they have undergone
polemic re-definition over the decades that can cause a
great deal of confusion.

In the traditional sense, "capitalism" means the ownership
and control of the means of production by a class of
"capitalists" (in the traditional sense, the owners of capital,
or means of production used by workers other than the
capitalists/owners themselves) and an economic and political
system
that favors this.

In the traditional sense, "socialism" means the ownership
and control of the means of production by the workers
themselves, whether as individuals, cooperatives, collectives,
communal groups, or through the state, and an economic
and political system that favors this. One should note that
this does not necessarily mean by the people as a whole,
nor does it necessarily mean state ownership, nor does it
necessarily imply a non-market form of organization;
historically, anarcho-individualism (e.g., in the free-
market
form advocated by Benjamin Tucker) has been
an important form of socialism.

In the later re-definition, "socialism" means the ownership
and control of the means of production by the people as a
whole, generally by means of the state, or simply the
ownership and control of the means of production by the
state, or more broadly any form of central planning by
the state.

In the later re-definition, "capitalism" means the private
(non-government) ownership of the means of production,
and more generally the absence of central planning by the
state.

Matters have become especially confused because these
terms have been used in ways that include both the
traditional sense and the later re-definition of the terms.
Thus, Marxist-Leninists will define "socialism" in the
traditional sense, but at the same time refer to examples
of "socialism" in the later re-definition, in order to gain
support for totalitarian Bolshevik regimes that actually
destroy any examples of "socialism" in the traditional
sense; likewise, their "capitalist" opponents will do the
same, in order to support the belief that There Is No
Alternative (TINA) to "capitalism" other than a tyrannic
despotism. (In this connection, one should note that
according to Marx and Engels, the "dictatorship of the
proletariat
" is a transitional stage between capitalism
and socialism/communism, which will not exist until
the state has withered away to nothing.)

In the same way, advocates of "capitalism" will define the
term with the later re-definition, but actually refer to concrete
examples that instead fit the original sense, even citing as
positive examples dictatorships such as Pinochet's in Chile.
And just as with "socialism", some opponents of
"capitalism" will do likewise in order to discredit it in the
sense of the later re-definition. At present, state-corporate
globalization, in which there is rule by states, corporations,
international financial institutions (IFIs), and the like, is
the typical form of "capitalism" actually advocated by
most avowed capitalists, rather than a truly free market.
This effectively means that there are (at the least) three
common usages of the terms "socialism" and "capitalism",
and so it behoves one to make clear in what sense one is
using these and related terms, and to what empirical examples
one refers.

One should also note the term "state-capitalism", used
by socialists (in the traditional sense) to refer to state
ownership and control of the means of production in
varying degrees ranging from capitalist dictatorships
such as Pinochet's through to Marxist-Leninist
dictatorships such as the Bolshevik regimes. This
extends the traditional sense of "capitalism", as the
state (at least partially) replaces the traditional "private"
capitalist class to varying degrees.
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Well, I know Chomsky (his work anyway), and I'm not a fan. He's a smart guy, but he and I don't see the world in the same way enough to have anything in common, or for his arguments to make any sense to me.

But show me a "libertarian socialist" who doesn't make equality of outcome a higher priority than individual liberty, and I'll accept that one as being genuine. Just saying, my experience is that very few of those exist.

Benjamin Tucker, yeah, he was cool, my kind of guy. If Chomsky wants to call Tucker's anarcho-individualism socialism, then I think he's redefining words into complete Humpty-Dumptiness.

And when I say I'm pro-capitalist, I am talking pure free market capitalism, not state capitalism.
 
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rayodeluz

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Laissez-Faire Capitalism Has Failed

Nouriel Roubini, 02.19.09, 12:01 AM EST
The financial crisis lays bare the weakness of the Anglo-Saxon model.


It is now clear that this is the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression and the worst economic crisis in the last 60 years. While we are already in a severe and protracted U-shaped recession (the deluded hope of a short and shallow V-shaped contraction has evaporated), there is now a rising risk that this crisis will turn into an uglier, multiyear, L-shaped, Japanese-style stag-deflation (a deadly combination of stagnation, recession and deflation).

The latest data on third-quarter 2008 gross domestic product growth (at an annual rate) around the world are even worse than the first estimate for the U.S. (-3.8%). The figures were -6.0% for the euro zone, -8% for Germany, -12% for Japan, -16% for Singapore and -20% for Korea. The global economy is now literally in free fall as the contraction of consumption, capital spending, residential investment, production, employment, exports and imports is accelerating rather than decelerating.

For the rest of the article, please follow the link.

Nouriel Roubini, a professor at the Stern Business School at New York University and chairman of Roubini Global Economics, is a weekly columnist for Forbes.com
Laissez-Faire Capitalism Has Failed - Forbes.com
 
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rayodeluz

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From Jesus’ socialism to capitalistic Christianity
By Gregory Paul

A truly strange thing has happened to American Christianity. A set of profound contradictions have developed within modern conservative Christianity, big and telling inconsistencies that have long slipped under the radar of public knowledge, and are only now beginning to be explicitly noted by critics of the religious and economic right.

Here is what is peculiar. Many conservative Christians, mostly Protestant but also a number of Catholics, have come to believe and proudly proclaim that the creator of the universe favors free wheeling, deregulated, union busting, minimal taxes especially for wealthy investors, plutocrat-boosting capitalism as the ideal earthly scheme for his human creations. And many of these Christian capitalists are ardent followers of Ayn Rand, who was one of - and many of whose followers are -- the most hard-line anti-Christian atheist/s you can get. Meanwhile many Christians who support the capitalist policies associated with social Darwinistic strenuously denounce Darwin’s evolutionary science because it supposedly leads to, well, social Darwinism!

For the rest of the article, please follow the link.

From Jesus’ socialism to capitalistic Christianity - Guest Voices - The Washington Post
 
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lismore

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I think the attitude of the bible is more complicated than can be labelled instantly as Socialism.

For example 1 Timothy chapter 5 gives advice on providing for widows in need. It's not quite socialism, more like a safety net for the completely destitute.

:)
 
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rayodeluz

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Simple, it is a falsehood and has no evidence to support it other than the opinion of the deluded.

The following rankings of countries with the best standards of living are according to Human Development Reports (Human Development Reports (HDR) – United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)). It certainly seems to back up the essay writers' contention. Where is the evidence to support your statement/opinion?

Top 30 on Human Development Index Ranking


  1. Norway
  2. Australia
  3. Iceland
  4. Canada
  5. Ireland
  6. Netherlands
  7. Sweden
  8. France
  9. Switzerland
  10. Japan
  11. Luxembourg
  12. Finland
  13. United States
  14. Austria
  15. Spain
  16. Denmark
  17. Belgium
  18. Italy
  19. Liechtenstein
  20. New Zealand
  21. United Kingdom
  22. Germany
  23. Singapore
  24. Hong Kong, China (SAR)
  25. Greece
  26. Korea (Republic of)
  27. Israel
  28. Andorra
  29. Slovenia
  30. Brunei Darussalam
 
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XtianAgain

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The following rankings of countries with the best standards of living are according to Human Development Reports (Human Development Reports (HDR) – United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)). It certainly seems to back up the essay writers' contention. Where is the evidence to support your statement/opinion?

Top 30 on Human Development Index Ranking


  1. Norway
  2. Australia
  3. Iceland
  4. Canada
  5. Ireland
  6. Netherlands
  7. Sweden
  8. France
  9. Switzerland
  10. Japan
  11. Luxembourg
  12. Finland
  13. United States
  14. Austria
  15. Spain
  16. Denmark
  17. Belgium
  18. Italy
  19. Liechtenstein
  20. New Zealand
  21. United Kingdom
  22. Germany
  23. Singapore
  24. Hong Kong, China (SAR)
  25. Greece
  26. Korea (Republic of)
  27. Israel
  28. Andorra
  29. Slovenia
  30. Brunei Darussalam

Speaks volumes. The statistic that really speaks to me is when you look at the GDP of America vs its life expectancy. I'm a very troubled American when I read that.
 
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Biker Angel

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Socialism- A political and economic theory of that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Acts 4:35
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Acts 2:45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.


Looks like the first Christians were socialists and Jesus preached Social Justice which they acted out in Acts. So all Christians should be Socialists. Or how else would you interpret these verses?
 
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Nymira

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I personally believe that everyone has the right to the fruits of their own labour. Socialism breeds poverty under the guise of creating equality - no one has any incentive to work hard anymore and thus everyone becomes equally poor. It's not good for society as a whole.

Looks like the first Christians were socialists

That's quite a stretch.
 
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meliagaunt

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Socialism- A political and economic theory of that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Acts 4:35
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Acts 2:45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.


Looks like the first Christians were socialists and Jesus preached Social Justice which they acted out in Acts. So all Christians should be Socialists. Or how else would you interpret these verses?

Interesting. I find it anachronistic to call the first Christians 'socialists' - that wasn't an option open to them. They could be Zealots fighting the Romans, or collaborators like the Saducees, or isolationists like the Essenes, but hardly socialists. Socialism as a theory developed as the Industrial Revolution progressed and the divide between workers and the fruits of their labour became wider.

And even allowing for your definition at the top of the post, it is not clear that they advocated any change in control of the means of production, or the distribution in the community as a whole. What they did was choose to distribute their own possessions in a way that would benefit all, especially the poorest, within their own group - not within the community as a whole, if by that we mean the whole city of Jerusalem.

So they were neither socialists nor opponents of socialism: such terms mean nothing in that historical context. What they were were people who believed that all their possessions were to be used in the service of God's kingdom and people, and that the poor especially should be cared for.

Perhaps that's what some socialists want today, perhaps it's what some conservatives want. I don't see the practices of the early church as endorsing any particular party or particular political theory.
 
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